...Do you even believe in Evolution in the first palce?

[kellhus]

I wonder about people who drink on their wedding day; but then, I wonder about people who drink on any day.

It's fun. You should try it sometime. Jesus certainly did.

 

[AV1611VET]

Jesus certainly did.

Is this the same Jesus that died on the Cross for our salvation?

 

[EnemyOfReason]

What difference does it make? The bible is not a science book, it is myth.

So, then what? - did Jesus know about the germ theory of disease? If so, then why the heck didn't he say something?

All people in the Palestinian desert area two millennia ago, including Jesus, were profoundly ignorant of modern science - knowledge you and I take for granted. The bible is no more a science book than I am ten feet tall or you are the King of France.

الحمد لله‎! You have finally spoken the truth. It took me a while to realize that my body is that of an animal and it is the result of years of bio-evolutionary reproductive modifications. It made me feel dirty at first knowing I was no longer "special".
The truth is that Reality is best applied directly down one's throat and if he or she vomits it from their lips then it only means they have rejected it. If they reject it then take another spoonful and add some "sugar" to sweeten the taste then cram it back inside until they finally acquire a taste for the it and stays in their craw

 

[CabVet]

Is this the same Jesus that died on the Cross for our salvation?

Are you really saying that Jesus didn't drink wine?

 

[AV1611VET]

Are you really saying that Jesus didn't drink wine?

Have you been following the conversation, Cab; or are you breaking in here?

Jesus drank what we call New Testament wine.

In other words: grape juice.

 

[CabVet]

Have you been following the conversation, Cab; or are you breaking in here?

Jesus drank what we call New Testament wine.

In other words: grape juice.

Oh, so the miracle wasn't that great after all, it is much easier to turn water into grape juice (just add grapes) than it is to turn it into wine. Thanks for clarifying.

P.S.: Trying to catch up, but too much to read!

 

[AV1611VET]

Oh, so the miracle wasn't that great after all, it is much easier to turn water into grape juice (just add grapes) than it is to turn it into wine. Thanks for clarifying.

... Hey, scientist, I don't mean to break in on your vast scientific knowledge or anything, but in the spirit of my movie file, I feel I have to at least point you in the right direction.

Um ... please read the account of Jesus turning water into wine -- (it's in John 2) -- and um ... could you tell me what physical law would have been broken if Jesus would have done it your way?

Hint: See verse 7.

(If there was a Christian equivalence of FSTDT, I can picture someone sending this there.)

 

[pjnlsn]

This is all still irrelevant; Much of it rests on their being a god at all, the existence of which is unlikely and unproven. (Even as many of us do believe)

 

[CabVet]

... Hey, scientist, I don't mean to break in on your vast scientific knowledge or anything, but in the spirit of my movie file, I feel I have to at least point you in the right direction.

Um ... please read the account of Jesus turning water into wine -- (it's in John 2) -- and um ... could you tell me what physical law would have been broken if Jesus would have done it your way?

Hint: See verse 7.

(If there was a Christian equivalence of FSTDT, I can picture someone sending this there.)

So, did he turn the water into wine or grape juice?

 

[bhsmte]

I wonder about people who drink on their wedding day; but then, I wonder about people who drink on any day.

I wonder about people who can't acknowledge simple truths.

 

[JGL53]

الحمد لله‎! You have finally spoken the truth. It took me a while to realize that my body is that of an animal and it is the result of years of bio-evolutionary reproductive modifications. It made me feel dirty at first knowing I was no longer "special".
The truth is that Reality is best applied directly down one's throat and if he or she vomits it from their lips then it only means they have rejected it. If they reject it then take another spoonful and add some "sugar" to sweeten the taste then cram it back inside until they finally acquire a taste for the it and stays in their craw

Well, uh, yes. For those who believe humans are spirits or souls who just ride around in physical bodies, as it were, then what the heck would it matter how those bodies came about? It is the spirit or soul that is the person, as most people in the west claim to believe, and that is the important thing to religious people, is it not?

I happen to view evolution and the universe as completely natural, but I have no real beef with theistic evolution as such. I mean, I can hardly imagine what difference it makes - exactly how it all got started 13.82 Billions years ago. lol.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

Well, uh, yes. For those who believe humans are spirits or souls who just ride around in physical bodies, as it were, then what the heck would it matter how those bodies came about? It is the spirit or soul that is the person, as most people in the west claim to believe, and that is the important thing to religious people, is it not?

I happen to view evolution and the universe as completely natural, but I have no real beef with theistic evolution as such. I mean, I can hardly imagine what difference it makes - exactly how it all got started 13.82 Billions years ago. lol.

This is the way I honestly view these issues. Scientific proof must be accepted if proven. Emotions nor religions should not obstruct their claims.
Religion has become a source of pride amongst people as it only fulfills their ego. When you hear a person saying "My religion is the true religion", this is ego not religion. Over inflated egos make a person declare superiority without evidence.

It is ego that makes one reject evolution, not god, just an overtly enlarged ego. If something proves my religion wrong, then so be it. Religion is created by man and prone to the limitations of man which is error.
To extract absolute authority from a book not even intended for scientific value is ludicrous. Not even I do such things! I have no intention on making a mockery of myself thankfully.

The evolution of biodiversity is as proven as a fact as man breathing oxygen. Muslims in the past did not reject Darwin's proposal and modern ones such as Edip Yuksel fully accept it. Ali Dashti an 'infamous' Qur'anic scholar AND critique found no reason to accept anything int he Qur'an until proven otherwise.

Prophesy is just hearsay as Muhammad ibn-Zaka'riya al-Razi has claimed in the past. Nothing is wrong with it but it cannot be validated.
To judge a scientific concept as false just because of hearsay 2 thousand years ago is not a very endeavoring or intellectual move.

 

[Strathos]

I believe science has morally bankrupted this country.

Do you know what I think has morally bankrupted not just my country, but the entire world?

...Well, a lot of things actually, but science isn't one of them.

Probably the biggest offender is fearmongering.

Such as the kind you do against science and scientists...

As for the "Biblical wine = grape juice" idea, I find it just as, if not more ridiculous than the entire KJV-only movement.

Honestly the Bible can be much more easily reinterpreted to support abiogenesis and evolution than it can to support wine meaning unfermented grape juice, yet you chastise people for doing the former while you unashamedly do the latter.

EDIT: Although I will mention again that I don't drink. Not for religious reasons, it's just a personal choice.

 

[AV1611VET]

EDIT: Although I will mention again that I don't drink. Not for religious reasons, it's just a personal choice.

If you did, it would be a sin ... and that's what started this whole fiasco.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

I believe science has morally bankrupted this country.

Wine has that effect on people ... I think.

Science does not teach morals so if you find it morally bankrupting then that is probably because you are looking for morals int he wrong place

 

[Strathos]

If you did, it would be a sin ... and that's what started this whole fiasco.

Only if I drank excessively.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I believe science has morally bankrupted this country.

Feel free to disconnect your internet then.

 

[AV1611VET]

Feel free to disconnect your internet then.

I'll pass.

 

[KWCrazy]

If you did, it would be a sin ... and that's what started this whole fiasco.

I think wine is wine; always has been. If it didn't ferment and produce alcohol, then why is it written in Mark 2:22 "And no man puts new wine into old wineskins: else the new wine does burst the wineskins, and the wine is spilled, and the wineskins will be ruined: but new wine must be put into new wineskins?" It's the buildup of carbon dioxide leftove from the fermentation process that would burst the wine bottles. Having made my own wine and brewed my own beer, I'v seen this before. It has been said that the alcohol content was lower then and that may well be depending on the process they used.

In those days the milk wasn't pasteurized and the water wasn't always fresh. Wine would store a long time and remain bacteria free. The Bible says to be not drunk with wine, but it doesn't condemn all consumption. Wine has many health benefits; some of which we are just now discovering. 1 Timothy 5:23, "Drink no longer water only, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent illnesses." There is no preclusion to the consumption of wine, only to drunkenness.

What does all of this mean for the modern Christian? If you don't wish to consume alcohol then don't, because the fluids we have to choose from now are cleaner and healthier than 2,000 years ago. If you do wish to consume alcohol in moderation, then there is nothing wrong with it. However, it IS a sin to get drunk and defile the temple of God; which is what your body is considered. If you can't stop at one small glass "for your stomach's sake" then don't touch it at all. There's nothing wrong with either position.

 

[Tomk80]

Then please explain to me why Nuh became intoxicated from the win along with the events in which Jesus turned water into wine. It was specifically recorded that these people were intoxicated.

And with this discussion, AV has punged into new depths of dumb. You guys are of course free to follow him there.