...Do you even believe in Evolution in the first palce?

[AV1611VET]

If you can't stop at one small glass "for your stomach's sake" then don't touch it at all. There's nothing wrong with either position.

And what of your children who are watching you drink?

Doesn't the indulgence of one generation become the norm of the next?

What about your neighbors who see you drink?

But more to the point of this fiasco: Do you believe Jesus turned water into fermented wine?

Yes, water back then wasn't as pure as today; but grape juice was the substitute.

 

[AV1611VET]

And with this discussion, AV has punged into new depths of dumb. You guys are of course free to follow him there.

Thanks for appending an insult with permission to carry on.

I was afraid you were going to prohibit them from further discussion on the subject.

 

[TLK Valentine]

If you did, it would be a sin ... and that's what started this whole fiasco.

Where is it written that having a drink is a sin?

 

[bhsmte]

Where is it written that having a drink is a sin?

Just tell everyone its grape juice.

 

[Tomk80]

Where is it written that having a drink is a sin?

It's not. It's one of those more creative "literal" readings of the bible AV has come up with.

 

[TLK Valentine]

And what of your children who are watching you drink?

Doesn't the indulgence of one generation become the norm of the next?

What about your neighbors who see you drink?

I usually invite them over, and we share stories over a glass of (fermented) wine.

It's actually quite fun.

But more to the point of this fiasco: Do you believe Jesus turned water into fermented wine?

Of course; why wouldn't he?

Yes, water back then wasn't as pure as today; but grape juice was the substitute.

Why do you persist in making up falsehoods?

 

[TLK Valentine]

And with this discussion, AV has punged into new depths of dumb. You guys are of course free to follow him there.

It's only "dumb" if AV actually believes it -- as it stands, it's a depth of dishonesty.

 

[Split Rock]

By His hand, no. He dictated the Word to Moses.

Any professional secretary, skilled in the art of amanuensis, will tell you that what they write are the very words of their boss.

Strange then that Moses didn't tell us that when he wrote GEN 1-2... oh, excuse me.. took dictation for GEN 1-2...

 

[Split Rock]

Have you been following the conversation, Cab; or are you breaking in here?

Jesus drank what we call New Testament wine.

In other words: grape juice.

Oh come on now! Are you going to tell us that the KJV1611 authors had no word for "juice?" Was grape juice considered "wine" to them???

 

[bhsmte]

It's only "dumb" if AV actually believes it -- as it stands, it's a depth of dishonesty.

I would agree, we are dealing with either; dishonesty or just plain dumb, take your pick.

 

[BarryDesborough]

Oh come on now! Are you going to tell us that the KJV1611 authors had no word for "juice?" Was grape juice considered "wine" to them???

Leave grape juice in unsanitary conditions in a hot climate, and you will inevitably get wine, or if you wait a bit longer, vinegar.

Me, I distill it before the vinegar stage.

 

[Split Rock]

I think wine is wine; always has been. If it didn't ferment and produce alcohol, then why is it written in Mark 2:22 "And no man puts new wine into old wineskins: else the new wine does burst the wineskins, and the wine is spilled, and the wineskins will be ruined: but new wine must be put into new wineskins?" It's the buildup of carbon dioxide leftove from the fermentation process that would burst the wine bottles. Having made my own wine and brewed my own beer, I'v seen this before. It has been said that the alcohol content was lower then and that may well be depending on the process they used.

In those days the milk wasn't pasteurized and the water wasn't always fresh. Wine would store a long time and remain bacteria free. The Bible says to be not drunk with wine, but it doesn't condemn all consumption. Wine has many health benefits; some of which we are just now discovering. 1 Timothy 5:23, "Drink no longer water only, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent illnesses." There is no preclusion to the consumption of wine, only to drunkenness.

What does all of this mean for the modern Christian? If you don't wish to consume alcohol then don't, because the fluids we have to choose from now are cleaner and healthier than 2,000 years ago. If you do wish to consume alcohol in moderation, then there is nothing wrong with it. However, it IS a sin to get drunk and defile the temple of God; which is what your body is considered. If you can't stop at one small glass "for your stomach's sake" then don't touch it at all. There's nothing wrong with either position.

AVET has gone off the deep end so bad on this "grape juice" talk of his, that I now find myself agreeing 100% with KWCrazy!

 

[AV1611VET]

Where is it written that having a drink is a sin?

Next to where it says smoking Camel filters is a sin.

 

[AV1611VET]

Why do you persist in making up falsehoods?

For the attention.

 

[AV1611VET]

Strange then that Moses didn't tell us that when he wrote GEN 1-2... oh, excuse me.. took dictation for GEN 1-2...

Moses didn't write GEN 1-2, Adam did -- in English.

 

[KWCrazy]

And what of your children who are watching you drink?

They learn moderation and control from me. Drinking to excess they learn from the world around them.

Doesn't the indulgence of one generation become the norm of the next?

No, because we don't live in a controlled environment. You can raise your children with your values, but as they get older your influence wanes and the influence of their friends becomes more powerful. Eventually free will takes over. They can make the choice to follow your example, or they can choose to reject everything you taught them. Remember, Jesus' brothers are barely even mentioned in the Bible. They certainly were not followers and there is no indication that they ever believed their brother was the son of God. As Jesus said, His family are the ones who hear His words and believe in Him. You can be a good parent and a good role model, but you can't live your kids' lives for them.

What about your neighbors who see you drink?

I don't believe that seeing a person on their own property with a beer once or twice a month corrupts anyone, but I may be wrong. I am, after all, a flawed person.

But more to the point of this fiasco: Do you believe Jesus turned water into fermented wine?

I believe it was wine. The alcohol content is never discussed.

John the Baptist had a very strict diet that followed the Nazirite restrictions outlined in Numbers 6:1-8. Among other things he couldn’t drink any wine or fermented drink. Nor could he eat or drink any thing that came from grapes even if it wasn’t fermented. This was in accordance with the instructions from the angel who foretold his birth (Luke 1:15)

In Matt.11:18 Jesus said that because of this diet the religious leaders said John was demon possessed. Then He said that since He followed no such restrictions but ate and drank like everyone else, they called Him a glutton and a drunkard. His point was that neither of them was acceptable to the leadership of the day, but from this and other passages it’s clear that Jesus drank alcoholic wine.
source

I believe you can drink a glass of wine and not be a drunkard, just as you can eat any food that has been blessed by God. However, what is right for me may be wrong for you. I have a lot of repect for those who never drink.

 

[KWCrazy]

AVET has gone off the deep end so bad on this "grape juice" talk of his, that I now find myself agreeing 100% with KWCrazy!

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!

Don't tell anyone.

 

[HitchSlap]

For the attention.

The bell of truth has never rung louder! Thank you for such an honest, transparent admission of your activity here at CF.

 

[AV1611VET]

Remember, Jesus' brothers are barely even mentioned in the Bible. They certainly were not followers and there is no indication that they ever believed their brother was the son of God.

-- Oh boy.

Let me guess.

In your opinion, the writer of the book of James was not Jesus' brother ... correct?

 

[HitchSlap]

Moses didn't write GEN 1-2, Adam did -- in English.

Do you live in a bubble?