Originally posted by Amatire
If exposing children to the psychological attitudes of adult masturbation is wrong and emotionally and psychologically harmful then that just proves that children dont "touch". they may touch erogenous zones and find pleasure in doing so, but there is a fundamental difference. That is the psychological attitude, like you yourself said, children dont fantasize at the same time as doing it, nor do they reach a height of sexual [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Indeed they are wholly innocent of the "sexual" side of it. This is why masturbation and what a child does is different.
Biologically there
is no difference. People do it
because it feels good. This is the reason children do it and it's the same reason adults do it. Whether or not children are aware of all the sexual details, is completely irrelevant. The action and reason for the action is
exactly the same. (I already resorted to the "dictionary defense" once; don't make me do it again.
)
I hate having to repeat the obvious over and over. Unless you can show me proof that either adults or children are doing it for reasons other than it's a pleasurable activity (in general, mind you), then you've got no argument that the two activities are biologically different.
Children do not go through the same psychological or emotional attitudes which are what ultimately cause masturbation to be harmful. It may not cause any physical damage, lying doesnt necessarily damage anyone physically, but it is wrong because of the emotional and psychological damage that can be done. It is the same with this.
Lying to someone and masturbation are not the same. You cannot equate something with the potential to harm someone else with masturbation (which harms no one). The only reason there are psychological "consequences" is because of Western society's general attitude towards sex in general (it's wrong, icky, sinful, etc, etc).
And as you yourself have said there is no magical barrier at puberty you will have to follow through that argument and say, if exposing children to the perverted side to sex is psychologically damaging, how can it not be so for adults? Do you really think that adults are unharmed by the same thing that you would say harms a child? We are not different creatures, if you yell at an adult it hurts just as it would a child. If exposing a child to masturbation and suggesting perverted sexual activity is wrong then the same must be said for adults.
Adults are more developed mentally and emotional (at least most are), and the world of adult sexuality goes far beyond simple exploration of one's own body. Adults that have learned to accept their own sexuality and explore it in a safe manner, I don't believe suffer from any psychological consequences of doing so.
Keeping children from being fully aware of adult sexual behavior until they are at an acceptable age to handle the responsibility (since adult sexual tends to be more geared towards having an effect on others) is a good thing, in my opinion.
I am not saying that sex is wrong, no where have we said that, even susan didnt say that. The fact is that sex is a selfless thing, it is a giving not a recieving. Masturbation is totally selfish, that is why it is wrong. It is a misconception that God is against sex or any sort of pleasure, quite the opposite in fact. God created all good things, all pleasure comes from him. He invented sex to be pleasureable and shared. It is the perversion of any natural pleasure that is wrong. Enjoying eating food becomes gluttony, taking pleasure in your surroundings becomes greed and possesiveness, having a laugh together becomes insulting or bullying someone for kicks. etc etc. Masturbation is a perversion of the natural pleasure you get from sex. because sex ultimately as I have said before is about giving not recieving.
"Wrong, wrong, wrong, etc". You think I haven't heard all this before? You think I buy any of it? I don't feel guilty, at all. I'll admit I used to (back when I was a teen), but that was because of social pressure. When I started to learn more about human sexuality (from an anthropological perspective), I found out there was absolutely no reason to feel guilty.
Unless you can show me real, measurable, harmful side effects, then you won't convince me. I believe it's a natural act, hard-wired into our biological being. I'm not going to fight nature just because some people have their own sexual hang-ups.
Trust me the thing that distinguishes a sin is that the pleasure decreases over time and the dependance increases. Someone even said on this thread that their sexual appetite had diminished I wonder why.... Real pleasure increases over time, infact it increases considerably, and there is no negative feeling afterwards.. when you play ball with your kids you dont feel guilty afterwards do you? CS lewis said the problem with the world is not that we like pleasure too much, but that we dont like it enough, we settle for the negative pleasures more often than the positive ones and in comparison they are 1% to 90%. and they diminish over time.
I said my sexual appetite had "decreased" (at least with respect to a few years ago), but not all that much. Anyway, I don't understand why masturbation is a "negative pleasure" whereas regular sex isn't.
I cannot comment on wet dreams, I am not male, but I do know that as a female I have the ability to control my dreams, If I find myself starting to dream about something sexually suggestive I am able to "change the subject" as it were. Im sure if you tried you could too. My problem is more often not that I cant but that I dont want to!
I can also control my dreams, though I wasn't always able to. Furthermore, I've yet to talk to anyone personally who says they can control theres (I only think it's because I have a pretty powerful imagination).
Ultimately whether something is a sin or not is not the point, the point is that God will forgive and he loves us. I am not entering Heaven by abstinance, I am entering heaven by grace. regardless of what I do in this life, God has died for me and taken away my sin and has called me his daughter. That is why I enter heaven, it has nothing to do with my behaviour or how good/bad I am.. no matter how good I am even one sin would be a "falling short" it wouldnt matter if it was stealing candy, or raping someone, any sin cuts you off from God and requres you to depend on Jesus for your salvation. That is what Jesus meant when he said that to think lustful thoughts is as bad as adultery.
Well, then the whole argument seems kind of moot, since everyone's a sinner.
