Do all Fundamentalist believe in a Pre Trib Rapture

[DeaconDean]

...the coming that destroys the antichrist.

Only one coming of the Lord is being described here in this passage.

But, when does that occur:

Pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib.

If you do not answer that, we're not going anywhere.

You can keep "spamming" the same stuff over and over, and I'll keep asking which coming.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JLB777]

This was "borrowed" from the Eschatology area:

"

• Pre-tribulation: The pre-tribulation position advocates that the rapture will occur before the beginning of the seven-year tribulation period, while the second coming will occur at the end of the seven-year tribulation period. Pre-tribulationists often describe the rapture as Jesus coming for the church and the second coming as Jesus coming with the church.

• Mid-tribulation: The mid-tribulation position espouses that the rapture will occur at some point in the middle of the tribulation period, or during Daniel's 70th week. The tribulation is typically divided into two periods of 3.5 years each. Mid-tribulationists hold that the saints will go through the first period (Beginning of Travail, which is not "the tribulation"), but will be raptured into Heaven before the severe outpouring of God's wrath in the second half of the tribulation.

• Post-tribulation: The post-tribulation position places the rapture at the end of the tribulation period. Post-tribulation writers define the tribulation period in a generic sense as the entire present age, or in a specific sense of a period of time preceding the second coming of Christ. The emphasis in this view is that the church will undergo the tribulation even though the church will be spared the wrath of God."

Source

As far as the Fundamentalist area is concerned, I believe they allow all three.

Fundamentalists, from the late 1870's, said they adhered to a "pre-trib" view.

"
14 point creed of the Niagara Bible Conference of 1878:
1. The verbal, plenary inspiration of the Scriptures in the original manuscripts.
2. The Trinity.
3. The Creation of man, the Fall into sin, and total depravity.
4. The universal transmission of spiritual death from Adam.
5. The necessity of the new birth.
6. Redemption by the blood of Christ.
7. Salvation by faith alone in Christ.
8. The assurance of salvation.
9. The centrality of Jesus Christ in the Scriptures.
10. The constitution of the true church by genuine believers.
11. The personality of the Holy Spirit.
12. The believer’s call to a holy life.
13. The immediate passing of the souls of believers to be with Christ at death.
14. The premillennial Second Coming of Christ.

"

Source

I've dealt with many "Post-trib" adherants. Not many "Mid-tribbers" though.

Near as far as I have seen, you espouse the "post-trib" view.

I am "Pre-trib".

You see only one (1) "coming".

I see at least two (2).

So, one last time, I ask, which coming?

God Bless

Till all are one.

No need to post other people’s commentary and opinion.


I’m not even discussing “pre-trib” or “post-trib” raptures, just examining what the scriptures say about the coming of the Lord.


Paul teaches us in 1 Thessalonians 4 & 5, that at the coming of the Lord, the Dead in Christ are resurrected and those who are alive and remain are rapture, in which they are gathered together unto Him in the air.

Then once His people are all gathered together above the earth, the wicked are destroyed.

• For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them

Paul describes these Three things that occur at the coming of the Lord in both 1 Thessalonians as well as 2 Thessalonians.

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ.
2. The rapture
3. The destruction of the wicked (including the antichrist)

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3


These same three things are described in 2 Thessalonians 2, with the emphasis on the destruction of the antichrist who will be alive on earth, and deceiving the Lord’s people when Jesus returns to gather His people and destroy the wicked.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


Again I ask you to please point out the verse in this passage that implicates two different comings.

Nothing in the Bible teaches anything about two comings, but rather it is only described as the coming, singular, in which Jesus arrives here on earth in which every eye will see Him.

• so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

There is no third time mentioned in the Bible.

Which is why you willfully refuse to answer my question and point out the verse in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 that show us the gathering of the Church, and the destruction of the antichrist.

Paul plainly says the Day of Christ to gather His people, comes after the antichrist is revealed and works his deception from the temple.



JLB

 

[DeaconDean]

No need to post other people’s commentary and opinion.


I’m not even discussing “pre-trib” or “post-trib” raptures, just examining what the scriptures say about the coming of the Lord.


Paul teaches us in 1 Thessalonians 4 & 5, that at the coming of the Lord, the Dead in Christ are resurrected and those who are alive and remain are rapture, in which they are gathered together unto Him in the air.

Then once His people are all gathered together above the earth, the wicked are destroyed.

• For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them

Paul describes these Three things that occur at the coming of the Lord in both 1 Thessalonians as well as 2 Thessalonians.

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ.
2. The rapture
3. The destruction of the wicked (including the antichrist)

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3


These same three things are described in 2 Thessalonians 2, with the emphasis on the destruction of the antichrist who will be alive on earth, and deceiving the Lord’s people when Jesus returns to gather His people and destroy the wicked.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


Again I ask you to please point out the verse in this passage that implicates two different comings.

Nothing in the Bible teaches anything about two comings, but rather it is only described as the coming, singular, in which Jesus arrives here on earth in which every eye will see Him.

• so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

There is no third time mentioned in the Bible.

Which is why you willfully refuse to answer my question and point out the verse in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 that show us the gathering of the Church, and the destruction of the antichrist.

Paul plainly says the Day of Christ to gather His people, comes after the antichrist is revealed and works his deception from the temple.



JLB

Here again, you see one, I see two.

Which coming?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JLB777]

But, when does that occur:

Pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib.

If you do not answer that, we're not going anywhere.

You are trying force your preconceived idea into the scripture without letting the scripture teach you the facts about His coming, then once you know the truth about these things that take place at His coming, you can come to understand the simple and plain truth that the Holy Spirit inspired Paul and Jesus to teach us.


I know you agree with what Paul teaches us in 1 Thessalonians 4, about the rapture.

The rapture takes place at His coming, however there are some other things that take place as well, one of which is the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1. And the dead in Christ will rise first
   
2. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

The resurrection and rapture are one event, that takes place at His coming, whereby those who are raptured will be caught up together with those who were resurrected.

This is referred to as the gathering, where Jesus comes and gathers together His people, in the air above the earth, and we are all together as one.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18



Surely we can both agree on this.



JLB

 

[DeaconDean]

Again, which coming?

Like I said, you see one, I see two.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JLB777]

Again, which coming?

Like I said, you see one, I see two.

God Bless

Till all are one.

The coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The coming by which the Church is gathered and the wicked are destroyed.


The rapture takes place at His coming, however there are some other things that take place as well, one of which is the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1. And the dead in Christ will rise first
   
2. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

The resurrection and rapture are one event, that takes place at His coming, whereby those who are raptured will be caught up together with those who were resurrected.

This is referred to as the gathering, where Jesus comes and gathers together His people, in the air above the earth, and we are all together as one.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18




JLB

 

[DeaconDean]

The coming by which the Church is gathered and the wicked are destroyed.

No, I see these as two separate events.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JLB777]

No, I see these as two separate events.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Paul taught it as one event.


The resurrection comes first, the the rapture.

Both are caught up together.


The rapture takes place at His coming, however there are some other things that take place as well, one of which is the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1. And the dead in Christ will rise first
   
2. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

The resurrection and rapture are one event, that takes place at His coming, whereby those who are raptured will be caught up together with those who were resurrected.

This is referred to as the gathering, where Jesus comes and gathers together His people, in the air above the earth, and we are all together as one.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18




JLB

 

[DeaconDean]

Paul taught it as one event.


The resurrection comes first, the the rapture.

Both are caught up together.

Not once have I argued against that.

NOT ONCE!

But you included a "clause"...

The coming by which the Church is gathered and the wicked are destroyed.

The "resurrection" and "rapture", yes. One event.

"the wicked are destroyed", separate event.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JLB777]

Not once have I argued against that.

NOT ONCE!

But you included a "clause"...



The "resurrection" and "rapture", yes. One event.

"the wicked are destroyed", separate event.

God Bless

Till all are one.

All three occur at His coming.


I have posted the scriptures, whereby at the coming of the Lord, the resurrection, rapture and destruction of the wicked, which includes the antichrist, occur.

You can not separate the coming of the Lord, from the resurrection, rapture and destruction of the wicked.


Here is 1 & 2 Thessalonians that teach just that.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3


These same three things are described in 2 Thessalonians 2, with the emphasis on the destruction of the antichrist who will be alive on earth, and deceiving the Lord’s people when Jesus returns to gather His people and destroy the wicked.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not comeunless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8



Zechariah says it this way -

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

Zechariah 14:1-6



At the coming of the Lord, the saints are gathered, and the wicked are destroyed, including of course the antichrist.





JLB

 

[DeaconDean]

All three occur at His coming.


I have posted the scriptures, whereby at the coming of the Lord, the resurrection, rapture and destruction of the wicked, which includes the antichrist, occur.

You can not separate the coming of the Lord, from the resurrection, rapture and destruction of the wicked.

Yes, you can.

Perhaps you should study a little deeper.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JLB777]

Yes, you can.

Perhaps you should study a little deeper.

God Bless

Till all are one.

You have to do better than just making remarks.

It’s clear from the scriptures that at the coming of the Lord the resurrection, rapture and destruction of the wicked occur.

It’s irrefutable.

All three occur at His coming.


Here is 1 & 2 Thessalonians that teach just that.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3


These same three things are described in 2 Thessalonians 2, with the emphasis on the destruction of the antichrist who will be alive on earth, and deceiving the Lord’s people when Jesus returns to gather His people and destroy the wicked.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not comeunless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8



Zechariah says it this way -

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

Zechariah 14:1-6



At the coming of the Lord, the saints are gathered, and the wicked are destroyed, including of course the antichrist.





JLB

 

[JLB777]

Yes, you can.

Perhaps you should study a little deeper.

God Bless

Till all are one.

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” Jude 14-15


I keep posting scripture and you just keep denying the truth.



JLB

 

[DeaconDean]

It’s clear from the scriptures that at the coming of the Lord the resurrection, rapture and destruction of the wicked occur.

It’s irrefutable.

All three occur at His coming.

"God is gone up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet." -Psa. 47:5 (KJV)

We learn this from the Old Testament.

"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." -Acts 1:9-11 (KJV)

This forms my basis.

To the point at hand, as to who the reference is: "behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;" nearly 100% of all commentators agree that the reference is to two (2) angels.

What are "angels"? God's messengers.

Could two (2) of God's messengers lie? It is very highly improbable.

How is this important?

They very plainly say: "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

JBL777, says that upon Jesus' coming, there will be a resurrection first, followed by the "rapture" secondly, then lastly "the destruction of the wicked and/or the antichrist", in which you use 2 Thess. 2:1-8 for your basis.

My problem with your "doctrine" is a failure to look at other scriptures.

And, if you subscribe to that theory, then "Christians" will have to endure the dreaded "tribulation" that is coming, in spite of what Paul tells us.

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come...For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," -1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9 (KJV)

Given what is said in Psa. 47:5, we have:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." -1 Cor. 15:51-54 (KJV)

And:

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." -1 Thess. 4:13-17 (KJV)

Then we add:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." -Mk. 13:26-27 (KJV)

Add to that:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." -Lk. 21:27 (KJV)

The two (2) passages from the Gospels and Paul's two(2) passages agree that there will be a resurrection and "rapture". Furthermore, Paul's two (2) passages in 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians not only agree that there will be a resurrection and rapture, but they also agree with what the Psalmist said in Psa. 47:5, that at His coming, there will be a "trumpet" sounding the arrival.

Paul told us that we will be saved "from the wrath to come" and that we have not been appointed to wrath".

Also, per the two "men" in Acts 1:11, if we take JBL777's statements as fact, there are two (2) problems with it.

According to 2 Thess. 1:7-9, we learn:

"...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

Add to that:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war." -Rev. 19:11 (KJV)

Now, no matter how you slice it, these two (2) passages, do not agree with Psa. 47:5; Mk. 13:26-27; Lk. 21:27; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; or 1 Thess. 4:13-17.

Continued...

 

[JLB777]

God is gone up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet." -Psa. 47:5 (KJV)

We learn this from the Old Testament.

I don’t see any mention of the resurrection and rapture in this verse.


Please stay with the topic.

Whenever we see the resurrection and rapture, it is at His coming, along with the destruction of the wicked.


JLB

 

[JLB777]

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." -Acts 1:9-11 (KJV)

Exactly, He will come in like manner.

• while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up,

At His coming the resurrected ones and the raptured ones will be caught up together with Him, in the clouds.

Notice that as He left they watched Him go, as they could see Him, and so He will come in like manner, as every eye will see Him, at His coming.


Just as Paul described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4


Here we see the pattern:


The coming of the Lord with the clouds of heaven.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ
The rapture
The destruction of the wicked.


In addition, the Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night for the Church who is watching and faithful.


Only for those who will be destroyed at His coming, the same coming by which the Church is raptured.




JLB

 

[DeaconDean]

What we do know also is that on a whole, the book of Revelation, starting around chapter 6, shows us God's wrath being poured out on an unrepentant, unsaved world.

Also, I just want to take a few passages out for closer examination.

According to the "world population clock" as of 7:43 am EST, there are 7.6 billion people on the fact of the earth.

When the fourth seal is opened, it tells us very "specifically" that:

"And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." -Rev. 6:8 (KJV)

Do the math. When the 4th seal is opened, 1.9 billion people will die.

There is no distinction made in this passage of scripture as to whether or not, these people are Christians or unsaved. 1,900,000,000 people are going to die!

7.6 minus 1.9 equals 5,700,000,000 people left.

We also see:

"And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." -Rev. 8:11 (KJV)

It does not give a specific number, but for argument, lets use a quarter again.

Using .25 (25%), we learn that 1,425,000,000 more die.

Again, no distinction is made as who is and who isn't Christian.

Do the math. Of the 5,700,000,00 left, 25% die, we are left with: 4,275,000,000 people.

Now we move on to:

"And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men." -Rev. 9:15 (KJV)

Here the scriptures tell us that another 33% (1/3) of the world's population that is left, are going to die.

Do the math. Another 1,410,075,000 people are going to die.

And again, there is no distinction made as to who is and who isn't a "Christian".

Do the math. 4.275, minus 1.41075 equals 2,864,250,000 left.

And that isn't even taking into account the untold numbers that will perish that do not take the mark of the beast.

And we have also learn that just from the opening of the 4th seal, until the 6th "trumpet" sounds, more than half of the world's population have died.

With no distinction as of who is and who isn't a Christian, if "Christians" are included in this number, then we have no recourse than to believe that Paul was wrong in 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9.

Christians will endure "the wrath to come" and we are indeed "appointed unto wrath".

We know from history that Luke wrote the book of Acts. And as far as a certain point, he got his account from an eyewitness, Peter.

Given what is said in Acts 1:9-11, there is no account from Luke who got his account from Peter that on the day Jesus' ascended up into heaven, Jesus went up "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" (2 Thess. 1:8) or that Jesus ascended up into heaven sitting upon "a white horse". (cf. Rev. 19:11)

I also say, that from the Gospel accounts, certain events revealed there can be seen as a "partial fulfillment" of end time prophesy.

I have stated many times that as far as God is concerned, there are only two (2) types of people, Jews, and Gentiles.

In Luke 21, we learn:

"...and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." -Lk. 21:24 (KJV)

Even though Israel was recognized as an independent nation May 1947, Jerusalem, the cornerstone of three religions, (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) who controls what is considered one of the holiest places on the face of the earth?

Islam controls the "Dome of the Rock."

When Jerusalem regains control of that, the times of the Gentiles are over.

The only way that one can make the scriptures agree is to see two as yet future "comings" of Christ.

One in which the saints will be resurrected and the living saints (His bride, the church) will be raptured out before the tribulation period.

Or, face the fact that Paul was mistaken and Christians will indeed endure the wrath of God. In which case, means that there is a grievous error in the scriptures. And if there is an "error", the scriptures are not trustworthy. If they are not trustworthy, we might as well pick up a copy of Moby Dick and make that our "bible" as it is just as trustworthy as the scriptures.

My position is, was, and will be, that Jesus will come in the clouds, the same way He left, to gather His elect, resurrect and rapture us (Christians both past and present) before the tribulation period begins, then after the tribulation period, He returns "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ...sitting on a white horse, with His army to defeat the false prophet, the beast, and the antichrist.

That is my position. And nothing has shaken that in over 40 years.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Exactly, He will come in like manner.

• while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up,

At His coming the resurrected ones and the raptured ones will be caught up together with Him, in the clouds.

Notice that as He left they watched Him go, as they could see Him, and so He will come in like manner, as every eye will see Him, at His coming.


Just as Paul described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4


Here we see the pattern:


The coming of the Lord with the clouds of heaven.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ
The rapture
The destruction of the wicked.


In addition, the Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night for the Church who is watching and faithful.


Only for those who will be destroyed at His coming, the same coming by which the Church is raptured.




JLB

You skipped right over 2 Thess. 1:7-9 to 2 Thess. 2:1-8.

Show me where Jesus ascended up into heaven "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". -2 Thess. 1:8 (KJV)

Show me where Jesus ascended up into heaven sitting upon "a white horse". -Rev. 19:11 (KJV)

And its pretty sad that I included a "Continued..." at the end of my post. You wouldn't even give me a chance to finish posting my position before you jumped right on me telling how wrong my view was.

I'm done with you.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JLB777]

JBL777, says that upon Jesus' coming, there will be a resurrection first, followed by the "rapture" secondly, then lastly "the destruction of the wicked and/or the antichrist", in which you use 2 Thess. 2:1-8 for your basis.

My problem with your "doctrine" is a failure to look at other scriptures.

And, if you subscribe to that theory, then "Christians" will have to endure the dreaded "tribulation" that is coming, in spite of what Paul tells us.

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come...For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," -1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9 (KJV)

Exactly, we will not suffer the wrath of God along with the wicked who are destroyed as the Lord “tramples the wine press of the wrath of God” upon the wicked, as we are caught up together with Him in the clouds above the earth, first, then He will destroy the wicked, including the antichrist.

Just as I have been saying all along.

The Lord will come as a thief in the night for the wicked, not for the faithful people of God.

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord vs 15

• For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. vs 3

• But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. vs 4

• For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, vs 9

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:1-9



JLB

 

[JLB777]

What we do know also is that on a whole, the book of Revelation, starting around chapter 6, shows us God's wrath being poured out on an unrepentant, unsaved world.

Also, I just want to take a few passages out for closer examination.

According to the "world population clock" as of 7:43 am EST, there are 7.6 billion people on the fact of the earth.

When the fourth seal is opened, it tells us very "specifically" that:

"And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." -Rev. 6:8 (KJV)

Do the math. When the 4th seal is opened, 1.9 billion people will die.

There is no distinction made in this passage of scripture as to whether or not, these people are Christians or unsaved. 1,900,000,000 people are going to die!

7.6 minus 1.9 equals 5,700,000,000 people left.

We also see:

"And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." -Rev. 8:11 (KJV)

It does not give a specific number, but for argument, lets use a quarter again.

Using .25 (25%), we learn that 1,425,000,000 more die.

Again, no distinction is made as who is and who isn't Christian.

Do the math. Of the 5,700,000,00 left, 25% die, we are left with: 4,275,000,000 people.

Now we move on to:

"And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men." -Rev. 9:15 (KJV)

Here the scriptures tell us that another 33% (1/3) of the world's population that is left, are going to die.

Do the math. Another 1,410,075,000 people are going to die.

And again, there is no distinction made as to who is and who isn't a "Christian".

Do the math. 4.275, minus 1.41075 equals 2,864,250,000 left.

And that isn't even taking into account the untold numbers that will perish that do not take the mark of the beast.

And we have also learn that just from the opening of the 4th seal, until the 6th "trumpet" sounds, more than half of the world's population have died.

With no distinction as of who is and who isn't a Christian, if "Christians" are included in this number, then we have no recourse than to believe that Paul was wrong in 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9.

Christians will endure "the wrath to come" and we are indeed "appointed unto wrath".

We know from history that Luke wrote the book of Acts. And as far as a certain point, he got his account from an eyewitness, Peter.

Given what is said in Acts 1:9-11, there is no account from Luke who got his account from Peter that on the day Jesus' ascended up into heaven, Jesus went up "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" (2 Thess. 1:8) or that Jesus ascended up into heaven sitting upon "a white horse". (cf. Rev. 19:11)

I also say, that from the Gospel accounts, certain events revealed there can be seen as a "partial fulfillment" of end time prophesy.

I have stated many times that as far as God is concerned, there are only two (2) types of people, Jews, and Gentiles.

In Luke 21, we learn:

"...and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." -Lk. 21:24 (KJV)

Even though Israel was recognized as an independent nation May 1947, Jerusalem, the cornerstone of three religions, (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) who controls what is considered one of the holiest places on the face of the earth?

Islam controls the "Dome of the Rock."

When Jerusalem regains control of that, the times of the Gentiles are over.

The only way that one can make the scriptures agree is to see two as yet future "comings" of Christ.

One in which the saints will be resurrected and the living saints (His bride, the church) will be raptured out before the tribulation period.

Or, face the fact that Paul was mistaken and Christians will indeed endure the wrath of God. In which case, means that there is a grievous error in the scriptures. And if there is an "error", the scriptures are not trustworthy. If they are not trustworthy, we might as well pick up a copy of Moby Dick and make that our "bible" as it is just as trustworthy as the scriptures.

My position is, was, and will be, that Jesus will come in the clouds, the same way He left, to gather His elect, resurrect and rapture us (Christians both past and present) before the tribulation period begins, then after the tribulation period, He returns "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ...sitting on a white horse, with His army to defeat the false prophet, the beast, and the antichrist.

That is my position. And nothing has shaken that in over 40 years.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Nice try, but you don’t even acknowledge the simple and plain truth that Paul taught us about His coming and the resurrection, rapture and destruction of the wicked. Why would you attempt to “explain” the book of Revelation.


At His coming, we will be delivered from the wrath of God, because we are caught up with Him in the air, in the clouds, above the earth, before He destroys the wicked, which includes the antichrist.


The Lord will come as a thief in the night for the wicked, not for the faithful people of God.

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord vs 15

• For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. vs 3

• But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. vs 4

• For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, vs 9

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:1-9



JLB