Do all Fundamentalist believe in a Pre Trib Rapture

[JLB777]

You skipped right over 2 Thess. 1:7-9 to 2 Thess. 2:1-8.

Show me where Jesus ascended up into heaven "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". -2 Thess. 1:8 (KJV)

Show me where Jesus ascended up into heaven sitting upon "a white horse". -Rev. 19:11 (KJV)

And its pretty sad that I included a "Continued..." at the end of my post. You wouldn't even give me a chance to finish posting my position before you jumped right on me telling how wrong my view was.

I'm done with you.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I didn’t reference 2 Thessalonians 2 in that post.


Here it is again.

Exactly, we will not suffer the wrath of God along with the wicked who are destroyed as the Lord “tramples the wine press of the wrath of God” upon the wicked, as we are caught up together with Him in the clouds above the earth, first, then He will destroy the wicked, including the antichrist.

Just as I have been saying all along.

The Lord will come as a thief in the night for the wicked, not for the faithful people of God.

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord vs 15

• For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. vs 3

• But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. vs 4

• For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, vs 9

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:1-9



JLB

 

[DeaconDean]

I didn’t reference 2 Thessalonians 2 in that post.


Here it is again.

Exactly, we will not suffer the wrath of God along with the wicked who are destroyed as the Lord “tramples the wine press of the wrath of God” upon the wicked, as we are caught up together with Him in the clouds above the earth, first, then He will destroy the wicked, including the antichrist.

Just as I have been saying all along.

The Lord will come as a thief in the night for the wicked, not for the faithful people of God.

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord vs 15

• For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. vs 3

• But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. vs 4

• For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, vs 9

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:1-9



JLB

Here again, all your posts state, 1 Cor.15:22-23, 51-54, 1 Thess. 4:13-17, and 2 Thess. 2:1-8 happen at the same time.

Except you do not account for 1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9. Which tell us we will not endure what is revealed in the book of Revelation.

Even though 2 Thess. 1:8, or Rev. 19:11 where the false prophet, the beast, and anti-christ are destroyed happen at the end of the tribulation period.

And nowhere are we told Jesus ascended up into heaven in flaming fire taking vengeance, or sitting upon a white horse.

Acts 1:9-11 make it clear, that did not happen.

Like I said, I'm done with you.

Hello ignore list.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JLB777]

Except you do not account for 1 Thess. 1:10

10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 1:10


Paul uses the same words in the context of the coming of the Lord and the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture and destruction of the wicked.

• For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

Jesus delivers us from the wrath, as we are caught up together with Him in the clouds, to be with Him, when He executes the wrath of God upon the wicked.

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ comes first.
2. Then the rapture.
3. Then once we are safely with Him in the air above the earth, Jesus pours out the wrath of God upon the wicked, including the antichrist.

1. the dead in Christ will rise first. vs 16
2. we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them v 17
   
3. then sudden destruction comes upon them vs 3

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:9



Paul reiterates this in His second letter to the Thessalonians, detailing facts about the false messiah, who goes to the temple to proclaim himself as God, and work his false signs and wonders to deceive.

This false christ or antichrist will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming, once the Church is safely gathered unto Him, in the air above the earth.

• the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Full Context:


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

• the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him
• the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

These things take place at the coming of the Lord.




JLB

 

[DeaconDean]

To whomever is reading,

JBL777 seems to have forgotten I said:

Like I said, I'm done with you.

Hello ignore list.

So I have deliberately waited some time after his posting, to add some of my thoughts.

I used Psa. 47:7 because it sets a precedence in that Jesus' return as recorded in 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-18 shows us that on Jesus' return, there indeed shall be a trumpet sounding.

Acts 1:9-11 tells us that Jesus ascended, He would return the same way.

Surely, Luke receiving his account from Peter, if Jesus had ascended up into heaven "in flaming fire" or sittng upon "a white horse", surely that would be a sign or happening that one would not forget. But perhaps Peter did forget. (That's the only alternative we are left with.)

Here are two problems with the "post-tribulational" view.

We have in the gospels, Jesus' account of what would happen before His return.

Jesus even goes so far as to tell the disciples:

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." -Mt. 24:36 (KJV)

Not even Jesus, the Word made flesh, the God-man, knew when that would happen.

But, according to "post-tribulationalism" we do know.

As stated previously, according to 2 Thess. 2:1-8 we know that the day of Jesus' return He will destroy the anti-Christ by reason of His brightness. (cf. 2 Thess. 2:8)

If the "post-tribulational view is correct, and Christ returns at the end of the tribulation period, when the "anti-Christ" is finally revealed, seven years later, Christ will return. Well, you can make the argument that the anti-Christ won't be revealed right away. In fact, he may be alive right now, just not revealed. Then you can say that according to scripture, whoever he is, when he breaks his covenant with Israel, 1250 days later, Christ will return. My problem with this, is it makes Jesus and scripture a liar. We can know for sure, either seven years after he is revealed, or 1250 days after he breks his covenant, Jesus will return, thus making Mt. 24:36 a liar.

And, to what good does it do Jesus, God, or us, if we are raptured/resurrected up after the tribulation, only to turn right around and come back with Him? What does Jesus need with us? Is it to bolster His heavenly army?

In Revelation 4:4, 10, we see the 24 elders sitting around the throne with their "crowns", and in vs. 10, they cast their "crowns" at the throne.

Now who these 24 elders are is uncertain, but what is certain, is they have been resurrected. And, they have been "rewarded". Which means, they have already appeared at the Bema Seat. (cf. 2 Cor. 5:10)

My biggest problem with "post-tribulational" view is the fact that scriptures make no distinction at all between saved and unsaved. All men, women, and children will have to endure the tribulation.

I'm sorry, I just cannot, nor will I accept the "post-tribulation" view.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JLB777]

My biggest problem with "post-tribulational" view is the fact that scriptures make no distinction at all between saved and unsaved. All men, women, and children will have to endure the tribulation.

Not true.


10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
Revelation 3:10-11



JLB

 

[JLB777]

At His coming, these three important things occur.


Point Number 1:

• The resurrection of the dead in Christ will take place at His coming, before the rapture.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16


Point Number 2:

• The rapture takes place, just a moment after the resurrection, in which all His people will be gathered together to be with Him, in the air. The resurrection/rapture is one event, at His coming.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


Point Number 3:

The same coming of the Lord, by which the Lord gathers His people at the resurrection/rapture, also destroys the antichrist.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 Thessalonians 2:1
• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

The coming of the Lord to gather together His people unto Himself; the resurrection/rapture is the same coming that destroys the antichrist.



JLB

 

[1stcenturylady]

So, according to your view, the "Church" His "Bride", the five wise virgins, endure the tribulation period. Or God's wrath on an unrepentant, unsaved world?

The righteous suffer along with the unrighteous.

And it still does not answer which coming. Unless you view the Gospel accounts, 1 Cor. 15, 1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 1 & 2, Rev. 19 as one coming.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I noticed a passage today that I have read many times, but completely missed the significance. Note it only says he will come with those who have already died, not the alive who supposedly were raptured 7 years ago.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[JLB777]

I noticed a passage today that I have read many times, but completely missed the significance. Note it only says he will come with those who have already died, not the alive who supposedly were raptured 7 years ago.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

This is a reference to Jesus coming with the church to be resurrected from the dead.

Then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them.

Then the Lord will destroy the wicked, when His Church is gatheted safely above the earth.

The resurrection
The Rapture
The destruction of the wicked, including the antichrist


JLB

 

[DeaconDean]

I noticed a passage today that I have read many times, but completely missed the significance. Note it only says he will come with those who have already died, not the alive who supposedly were raptured 7 years ago.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Here is a "sticky" area.

There has already been a "resurrection". (cf. Mt. 27:52)

But here again, in the Eschatology area, I was told by one member there that I was to "Think Zombies!"

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Here is a "sticky" area.

There has already been a "resurrection". (cf. Mt. 27:52)

But here again, in the Eschatology area, I was told by one member there that I was to "Think Zombies!"

God Bless

Till all are one.

Huh?

 

[1stcenturylady]

This is a reference to Jesus coming with the church to be resurrected from the dead.

Then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them.

Then the Lord will destroy the wicked, when His Church is gatheted safely above the earth.

The resurrection
The Rapture
The destruction of the wicked, including the antichrist


JLB

You missed the significance too, as I had. Wouldn't some who were raptured 7 years prior be ALIVE? It said plainly "those who SLEEP in Jesus.

 

[DeaconDean]

You missed the significance too, as I had. Wouldn't some who were raptured 7 years prior be ALIVE? It said plainly "those who SLEEP in Jesus.

Prior to His resurrection, were they not "asleep in Christ?"

And notice well, in Mt. 27:52, Matthew uses the word "saints".

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,"

Also, how about the "saints" that are killed during the tribulation period?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Prior to His resurrection, were they not "asleep in Christ?"

And notice well, in Mt. 27:52, Matthew uses the word "saints".

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,"

Also, how about the "saints" that are killed during the tribulation period?

God Bless

Till all are one.

The "saints" that are killed during the tribulation period come back with Christ. (I'm post-trib)

 

[DeaconDean]

The "saints" that are killed during the tribulation period come back with Christ. (I'm post-trib)

Be that as it may.

WHat you and the other member ignore is where in Rev. 19:11-20, or 2 Thess. 1:7-8, 2:1-8 does a trumpet sound?

In fact, according to Acts 1:9-11, show me in scripture where Jesus ascended up "In falming fire taking vengeance" or sitting/riding upon "a white horse"?

As they saw Him go, He must return in the same fashion. Period.

So, according to scripture, show where Jesus ascended up in flaming fire, or sitting/riding a white horse.

If you can't, you don't have a leg to stand on.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Be that as it may.

WHat you and the other member ignore is where in Rev. 19:11-20, or 2 Thess. 1:7-8, 2:1-8 does a trumpet sound?

In fact, according to Acts 1:9-11, show me in scripture where Jesus ascended up "In falming fire taking vengeance" or sitting/riding upon "a white horse"?

As they saw Him go, He must return in the same fashion. Period.

So, according to scripture, show where Jesus ascended up in flaming fire, or sitting/riding a white horse.

If you can't, you don't have a leg to stand on.

God Bless

Till all are one.

So what? Absence of a detail when writing something significant doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It is written elsewhere. Put all the details together, and you have a complete picture.

 

[DeaconDean]

So what? Absence of a detail when writing something significant doesn't mean it doesn't happen.)

Then you are left to no other conclusion that an event with such significance as the ascension of Jesus, was an event that was not noteworthy. It was easy to forget.

And not to mention that what is left over means that according to the book of Revelation, "Christians" will have to endure the wrath of God, that is poured out on all the earth during the tribulation. Christians along with non-Christian will suffer alike.

No distinction is made between the two.

Righteous, along with the unrighteous will be punished alike. Which goes against what Paul wrote.

Why bother to be saved during this age of grace? Live as you will, when the antichrist is revealed, and tried to force his mark upon us, don't take it. Be one of the martyred saints.

Nice philosophy.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Then you are left to no other conclusion that an event with such significance as the ascension of Jesus, was an event that was not noteworthy. It was easy to forget.

And not to mention that what is left over means that according to the book of Revelation, "Christians" will have to endure the wrath of God, that is poured out on all the earth during the tribulation. Christians along with non-Christian will suffer alike.

No distinction is made between the two.

Righteous, along with the unrighteous will be punished alike. Which goes against what Paul wrote.

Why bother to be saved during this age of grace? Live as you will, when the antichrist is revealed, and tried to force his mark upon us, don't take it. Be one of the martyred saints.

Nice philosophy.

God Bless

Till all are one.

We were talking of a trumpet sound. That is when Jesus comes back, not the ascension 2000 years ago

 

[JLB777]

You missed the significance too, as I had. Wouldn't some who were raptured 7 years prior be ALIVE? It said plainly "those who SLEEP in Jesus.

Those who “sleep”, is a reference to the dead in Christ, who bodies are in the earth, and whose spirit’s are in heaven with the Lord.

Jesus is bringing those who have previously died with Him, on the last Day, when He returns to gather His people together and destroy the wicked, which includes the antichrist.

• The dead in Christ shall rise first.
• Then we who are alive will be caught up together with them.
• Finally once all His people are gathered together with Him safely above the earth, He will pour out God’s wrath upon the wicked, in which the antichrist will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

JLB

 

[1stcenturylady]

Those who “sleep”, is a reference to the dead in Christ, who bodies are in the earth, and whose spirit’s are in heaven with the Lord.

Jesus is bringing those who have previously died with Him, on the last Day, when He returns to gather His people together and destroy the wicked, which includes the antichrist.

• The dead in Christ shall rise first.
• Then we who are alive will be caught up together with them.
• Finally once all His people are gathered together with Him safely above the earth, He will pour out God’s wrath upon the wicked, in which the antichrist will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

JLB

Yes, I agree. The secret rapture of the dead AND LIVING in Christ is a myth.

 

[DeaconDean]

We were talking of a trumpet sound. That is when Jesus comes back, not the ascension 2000 years ago

"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." -Acts 1:9-11 (KJV)

There is no trumpet sounding here.

There is "In flaming fire" or sitting/riding upon "a white horse" here either.

The trumpet sounding is in agreement with Psa. 47:5 at 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-18.

There is trumpet sounding in Rev. 19:11-21; 2 Thess. 1:7-8; 2:1-8 either.

Oh well, what the heck do I know.

I'm just another heretic who teaches a "pre-trib" rapture.

Unsubscribing, so don't bother quoting me, as I will not respond.

God Bless

Till all are one.