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Do all Fundamentalist believe in a Pre Trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Fundamentalist Christians' started by JES1023, Nov 26, 2017.

  1. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    No

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  2. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    You have been shown from the scriptures that at His coming, the resurrection and rapture take place.

    You have already agreed that the resurrection and rapture take place at His coming, then you say you do not agree.


    Here are the scriptures that teach this very important foundational truth.


    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18


    Key Verses:

    For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

    again

    Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


    These verses teach us the resurrection and rapture occur at the coming of the Lord, in which those who are resurrected from the dead will rise first, then those who are alive will be caught up together with them, in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


    Once all of His people are safely off the earth and with Him in the air, He will commence with the destruction of the wicked.



    But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5

    • For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them.


    Paul continues to expound upon this truth in his second letter to the Thessalonians.


    Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


    Paul continues to teach the Thessalonian Church, that the coming of the Lord and our gathering to Him, is not past, but that the false messiah must come first, in which at the coming of the Lord we will be gathered to Him, and the false messiah; antichrist, will also be destroyed by the brightness of His coming.


    Key Verses:

    • Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him
    • the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


    Here is the plain and simple truth that Paul taught the Church about the coming of the Lord.


    Denying this truth will not change it.




    JLB
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2018
  3. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Yes, there will be a future resurrection and rapture.

    Yes, there will be a destruction of the antichrist. (Along with the beast and false prophet)

    Go back in this thread, and show me where I have denied any of what you said.

    Where we disagree is these things happening at the same time.

    And that, is you have failed to see or comprehend.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  4. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    You have taken a few pieces of scripture, placed them in a certain order and said, it happens "boom, boom, boom". All in a row.

    According to scriptures, there is a progression of events that absolutely must happen before the antichrist, the beast, and the false prophet are destroyed.

    And one event that happens to announce the progression of these events is the "rapture, resurrection".

    I have not disagreed with what you said, I have, on the other hand, disagreed with the order in which you place these events without regard to what is said in other pieces of scripture.

    I have said it several times, and I will continue to say it, you have taken a few pieces of scripture and piecemealed them together into a "doctrine" that suits your theology.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  5. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    They all happen at His coming.

    The antichrist is actually destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

    • whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

    The very same coming by which the Church is gathered together unto Him.


    • concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,


    Please point out the verse in this passage from 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
    That shows us the coming of the Lord Jesus to gather His people together unto Him, is different that the coming that destroys the antichrist.



    Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8



    JLB
     
  6. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Here again, which coming?

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  7. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    So what you are saying is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is a few pieces of scripture?

    Is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 that shows both the gathering of the Church as well as the destruction of the antichrist At His coming, just a piece of scripture, or a whole passage with context?

    Paul amplifies what he taught in 1 Thessalonians 4-5 in this second letter.


    You sir have run out of excuses.
     
  8. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    They all happen at The same coming.

    The antichrist is actually destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

    • whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

    The very same coming by which the Church is gathered together unto Him.


    • concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,


    Please point out the verse in this passage from 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
    That shows us the coming of the Lord Jesus to gather His people together unto Him, is different that the coming that destroys the antichrist.



    Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8



    JLB
     
  9. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    No they do not.

    You skipped right over 1 Thess. 1:10, 2 Thess. 2:7-8, Rev. 19:10-21, Acts 1:9-11, Psa. 47:5.

    Not to mention everything between Rev. 6-19!

    Like I said:

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  10. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    All you have done is dodge the question again, buy putting up scripture references, but no scripture.

    You omitted 1 Thessalonians 4&5 which show the coming of the Lord to gather His people and the destruction of the wicked.


    Please answer the question.


    Please point out the verse in this passage from 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
    That shows us the coming of the Lord Jesus to gather His people together unto Him, is different that the coming that destroys the antichrist.




    The antichrist is actually destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

    • whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

    The very same coming by which the Church is gathered together unto Him.


    • concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,



    Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8



    JLB
     
  11. Hieronymus

    Hieronymus Well-Known Member

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    Do all Fundamentalist believe in a Pre Trib Rapture

    Not when the Bible is the fundament, because it's not in there.
    There is a pre-wrath rapture in the Bible.
    But chances are there are little to no Christians left on earth before that.
     
  12. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    And you have repeatedly avoided answering my question.

    Which coming?

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  13. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    And you missed/omitted:

    "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.' -1 Thess. 1:10 (KJV)

    In fact, just one chapter prior to 2 Thess. 2:8 are 2 key verses.

    I guess you missed that too.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  14. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Fact is:

    "God is gone up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet.' -Psa. 47:5 (KJV)

    This is in harmony with what is taught in 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-18.

    It does not agree with 2 Thess. Chapters 1-2, or Rev. 19:11-21!

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  15. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    I have answered this question.

    The same coming by which the Church is gathered, also destroys the antichrist.




    Please point out the verse in this passage from 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
    That shows us the coming of the Lord Jesus to gather His people together unto Him, is different that the coming that destroys the antichrist.




    The antichrist is actually destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

    • whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

    The very same coming by which the Church is gathered together unto Him.


    • concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,



    Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8



    JLB
     
  16. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

    Your proof text.

    Beginning at verse 3, there is something that has to happen first.

    Then, what's left over will come to pass.

    But here again, where is the trumpet sounding to announce His coming in 1 Thess. 2:1-8?

    There isn't one.

    Also, verse 4 agrees with Rev. 13-14.

    It is only after certain events happens, then the antichrist will be destroyed. (cf. Rev. 19:20)

    Also, according to you, everything happens in 2 Thess 2:1-8 when He returns.

    Show me anywhere else in scripture that what Christ returns, He will be "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God" (cf 2 Thess. 1:8), or where Christ will be on "a white horse;". (cf. Rev. 19:11)

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  17. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    I asked you a simple question.

    Please stop asking me more questions, that is just another obvious attempt to avoid answering the question.


    Please point out the verse in this passage from 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
    That shows us the coming of the Lord Jesus to gather His people together unto Him, is different that the coming that destroys the antichrist.

    Paul is describing the coming of the Lord.

    He indicates what happens at the coming of the Lord.

    Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


    The antichrist is actually destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

    • whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

    The very same coming by which the Church is gathered together unto Him.


    • concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,




    JLB
     
  18. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    And here again, which coming?

    Fact is, I have answered your "proof texts" several times.

    And you keep posting the same "spam" over and over."

    I asked one question,. and you either avoid it, or just plain won't answer it.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
  19. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    This was "borrowed" from the Eschatology area:

    "
    • Pre-tribulation: The pre-tribulation position advocates that the rapture will occur before the beginning of the seven-year tribulation period, while the second coming will occur at the end of the seven-year tribulation period. Pre-tribulationists often describe the rapture as Jesus coming for the church and the second coming as Jesus coming with the church.
    • Mid-tribulation: The mid-tribulation position espouses that the rapture will occur at some point in the middle of the tribulation period, or during Daniel's 70th week. The tribulation is typically divided into two periods of 3.5 years each. Mid-tribulationists hold that the saints will go through the first period (Beginning of Travail, which is not "the tribulation"), but will be raptured into Heaven before the severe outpouring of God's wrath in the second half of the tribulation.
    • Post-tribulation: The post-tribulation position places the rapture at the end of the tribulation period. Post-tribulation writers define the tribulation period in a generic sense as the entire present age, or in a specific sense of a period of time preceding the second coming of Christ. The emphasis in this view is that the church will undergo the tribulation even though the church will be spared the wrath of God."
    Source

    As far as the Fundamentalist area is concerned, I believe they allow all three.

    Fundamentalists, from the late 1870's, said they adhered to a "pre-trib" view.

    "
    14 point creed of the Niagara Bible Conference of 1878:
    1. The verbal, plenary inspiration of the Scriptures in the original manuscripts.
    2. The Trinity.
    3. The Creation of man, the Fall into sin, and total depravity.
    4. The universal transmission of spiritual death from Adam.
    5. The necessity of the new birth.
    6. Redemption by the blood of Christ.
    7. Salvation by faith alone in Christ.
    8. The assurance of salvation.
    9. The centrality of Jesus Christ in the Scriptures.
    10. The constitution of the true church by genuine believers.
    11. The personality of the Holy Spirit.
    12. The believer’s call to a holy life.
    13. The immediate passing of the souls of believers to be with Christ at death.
    14. The premillennial Second Coming of Christ.

    "

    Source

    I've dealt with many "Post-trib" adherants. Not many "Mid-tribbers" though.

    Near as far as I have seen, you espouse the "post-trib" view.

    I am "Pre-trib".

    You see only one (1) "coming".

    I see at least two (2).

    So, one last time, I ask, which coming?

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  20. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    You have never answered my question which asks you:


    Please point out the verse in this passage from 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
    That shows us the coming of the Lord Jesus to gather His people together unto Him, is different than the coming that destroys the antichrist.


    If you believe Paul is teaching the Church that there are two “comings” of the Lord, then prove your belief by pointing out those two comings, here in this passage, that describes the coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, as well as destroy the antichrist.




    Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


    Only one coming of the Lord is being described here in this passage.






    JLB
     
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