Do all Fundamentalist believe in a Pre Trib Rapture

[1stcenturylady]

"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." -Acts 1:9-11 (KJV)

There is no trumpet sounding here.

There is "In flaming fire" or sitting/riding upon "a white horse" here either.

The trumpet sounding is in agreement with Psa. 47:5 at 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-18.

There is trumpet sounding in Rev. 19:11-21; 2 Thess. 1:7-8; 2:1-8 either.

Oh well, what the heck do I know.

I'm just another heretic who teaches a "pre-trib" rapture.

Unsubscribing, so don't bother quoting me, as I will not respond.

God Bless

Till all are one.

On this site, what does unsubscribing mean?

 

[faroukfarouk]

On this site, what does unsubscribing mean?

Means not getting reminders about a particular thread.

 

[faroukfarouk]

We were talking of a trumpet sound. That is when Jesus comes back, not the ascension 2000 years ago

It's mentioned in 1 Thess. 4.

Whether ppl want to call themselves Fundamentalists or not, it doesn't alter the reference to the trumpet of God in 1 Thess. 4.

 

[1stcenturylady]

It's mentioned in 1 Thess. 4.

Whether ppl want to call themselves Fundamentalists or not, it doesn't alter the reference to the trumpet of God in 1 Thess. 4.

Yes, but that is when He comes back, not after He rose and ascended to heaven.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Yes, but that is when He comes back, not after He rose and ascended to heaven.

Yes, this seems to be the context in 1 Thess. 4.

A lot of problems can be avoided in terms of ppl's understanding if they would only look at the context of what is being stated in Scripture.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yes, this seems to be the context in 1 Thess. 4.

A lot of problems can be avoided in terms of ppl's understanding if they would only look at the context of what is being stated in Scripture.

Did you see my earlier post about 1 Thess. 4 where I read a verse that said only those already asleep in Christ will return with Jesus (plus His angels, of course)? That seems to contradict the notion that a secret rapture 7 years earlier where alive Christians go to heaven with the dead and they come back with Christ as well as those asleep in Christ who rose in the secret resurrection.

 

[joyfullyobey]

When I put all the Scriptures together I found that they didn't support pre-trib, they supported post-trib. Now, I believe in post-trib, pre-wrath. Matt 24:20-32 is a clear example of a post-trib passage spoken by Jesus Himself.

I looked up Matthew 24:20-32 and it actually supports pre-tribulation rapture. The tribulation Jesus speaks of here is merely the trials of the end times for everyone in the world before the second coming of Christ, not the seven year tribulation itself.

Also I agree with @JLB777 1 Thessalonians 17 says "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

 

[1stcenturylady]

I looked up Matthew 24:20-32 and it actually supports pre-tribulation rapture.

In what way?

 

[faroukfarouk]

I looked up Matthew 24:20-32 and it actually supports pre-tribulation rapture. The tribulation Jesus speaks of here is merely the trials of the end times for everyone in the world before the second coming of Christ, not the seven year tribulation itself.

Also I agree with @JLB777 1 Thessalonians 17 says "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

It's true that the New Testament speaks both of the tribulation principle and of the great tribulation; of the Lord's coming in the air for His church and of His coming in power and glory on earth. These are indeed Scriptural distinctives.

 

[1stcenturylady]

It's true that the New Testament speaks both of the tribulation principle and of the great tribulation; of the Lord's coming in the air for His church and of His coming in power and glory on earth. These are indeed Scriptural distinctives.

But are they 7 years apart?

 

[joyfullyobey]

In what way?

In the way that I mentioned above. Jesus is speaking about the difficulty all will face in the end times, and then he concludes in verses 30-31 that He will return and take the elect with Him.

 

[1stcenturylady]

In the way that I mentioned above. Jesus is speaking about the difficulty all will face in the end times, and then he concludes in verses 30-31 that He will return and take the elect with Him.

Yes, but is that before or after the tribulation. I see after.

 

[1stcenturylady]

When Jesus comes again, only those who are dead in Christ will return with Him; not those alive from some secret rapture that is being fishfully taught.

1 Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[tkolter]

Well I believe we should teach and act like we will be living through the entire Tribulation unless we are executed by the One World Government and are to keep preaching and spreading the Gospel until we are no longer able to. Let me be clear its for one reason the teaching is unclear and if we teach this as we won't be here and the Church as a body isn't Raptured up there will be a large number of disillusioned Christians falling away likely and into darkness. If it does happen fine.

 

[joyfullyobey]

When Jesus comes again, only those who are dead in Christ will return with Him; not those alive from some secret rapture that is being fishfully taught.

1 Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

So when you quoted 2 Thess 4:14-15 it doesn’t sound to you like the author is talking about one event? It reads as if the two lines bolted in read happen successively, one after the other. Especially if you read on to verses 16 and 17 it really sounds like this all happens at once. 17: “Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together WITH THEM in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” These are happening one right after the other, before the tribulation.

 

[sdowney717]

Read Mt. 24:30-31; Lk. 21:27-28.

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." -Mt. 24:30-31 (KJV)

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." -Lk. 21:27-28 (KJV)



Does not harmonize with the Gospel accounts.

Jesus gave us these words, and then...silence.

Sorry, try again.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Certainly does harmonize with Matthew 24, what do you suppose is v15?
v21 say this time is the great tribulation, the worst one the world will ever experience, it will include the entire world. Bad enough that unless the days were shortened, all people would be killed before the Lord's coming again.

v23 shows the false christs and false prophets of this time period, harmonizes with Revelation's antichrist and false prophets, those frogs. v24 the great wonders, these are the ones performed by antichrist mentioned in 2 Thess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish,

v26 is the next major event discussed Christ's return and He will destroy those evil things by the brightness of His coming, as 2 Thessalonians 2:8 says. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. v28 is the destruction of all wicked, which Christ does at His coming.

v29, is the gathering by the angels of His elect, this is the same gathering as Paul taught in 2 thessalonians 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

v38 - v39, none of the wicked shall understand, none of them believe in Christ or His coming. Or if they think He might return, they refuse to repent of their wickedness and carry on with life as usual following Satan and the ways of the world, because they say the beast is invincible, some may believe God does not care what happens.

v40, one taken one left, the ones taken are taken to destruction, just as they were taken away by Noah's flood. We are gathered. There are other parables that tell of this being taken by holy angels. Both groups are taken, one to destruction, one to be with Christ.

V28, Where the carcass is (the dead), there the eagles (vultures feast on the dead)
Luke 17 parallels Matthew 24 about His second coming.
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Matthew 24
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Parable of the Fig Tree
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that [e]it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

No One Knows the Day or Hour
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

 

[DeaconDean]

Certainly does harmonize with Matthew 24, what do you suppose is v15?

Lets see here:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand" -Mt. 24:15 (KJV)

In a sense, depending on your eschatology, that could have already happened. Dispensationalism teaches this prophesy was fulfilled when Antiochus defiled the altar in AD 70.

However, in any history given, "desolator" was never a "title" given to Antiochus, or even Titus the Younger.

So this must as yet be a future fulfillment.

Here we come to a separating point. In order for us to see what is prophesized in Mt. 24:15, the Temple has, repeat, has to be rebuilt, in order for the "abomination" to be in the Holy-of-Holies".

How long would it take, for the temple to be rebuilt?

v23 shows the false christs and false prophets of this time period, harmonizes with Revelation's antichrist and false prophets, those frogs. v24 the great wonders, these are the ones performed by antichrist mentioned in 2 Thess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish,

Not really. John says there have been, and always will be "antichrists". (cf 1 Jn. 2:18)

Matthew 24
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Here again, all one has to do is Read Josephus "Wars of the Jews" to this did happen, almost word-for-word, in the year leading up to AD 70.

Nothing new.

The bottom line is this,

According to Acts 1:9-11, there is no mention whatsoever of Jesus ascending UP into heaven, "in flaming fire taking vengeance" or "sitting upon a white horse".

The two messengers in Acts 1:11, specifically says:

"this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." -Acts 1:11 (KJV)

There is no mention of either flaming fire or a horse in any of the Gospel accounts, or in 1 Cor. 15:51-54, 1 Thess. 4:13-18.

In fact, we may know when Jesus is about to return with some confidence. (cf. Lk. 21:24)

Basically, there are only two types of people in the world. Either your a Jew, or a Gentile.

So ask yourself this. Who (Jew or Gentile) controls the holiest spot in the world?

Its only when the Gentiles no longer have control of the Temple Mount, that Lk. 21:24 is fulfilled.

And another thing, if we as Christians, are to endure the tribulation period, by the time its all over and done, who many people will be left alive?

According to Rev. 6, when the 4th seal is broken, a quarter of the entire worlds population is going to die!

"And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." -Rev. 6:8 (KJV)

At current worlds population, 7.2 billion, if 25% are going to die, then there will be left 5.4 billion people left. Notice also that in Rev. 6:8, there is no distinction made as to who is and who isn't a "Christian".

Now there are a couple more verses in the following chapters that tell us how many are doomed in subsequent judgments. And the point being, by the time Rev. 20 comes, there are only about 1.8 billion people left to enter the 1000 year.

If Christians are to endure the tribulation, then God is terribly cruel. For in those prophesies, both the guilty and the righteous are punished equally. Your faith in God is misaligned. The scriptures lie!

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." -1 Thess. 5:9-10 (KJV)

No sir. Until you convince me that those two messengers in Acts 1 lied, 12 Thess. 7-8; Rev. 19:11 happened when Jesus ascended up to heaven, there will be two separate events.

Either Jessu returns to save the elect from what transpires during the tribulation, or Christians indeed will endure it, thus making Paul's passage of scripture in 1 Thess. 5:9-10 a lie.

We are appointed unto wrath, the wrath of the Lord will be upon us when the book of Revelation comes to pass.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Here is the rapture:

(1) A day is like a thousand years (2 Pet 3:8)
(2) On the last day, I will raise them up (John 6:40)
(3) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years was complete (Rev 20:5)

 

[tkolter]

Let us look at Christian History from the foundations to now and even the History of the Hebrew People when did God ever make it easy or prevent His faithful from suffering the Hebrews were enslaved under the brutal lash by the Egyptians. Enemies harassed them throughout the OT and they were taken away into servitude again and enemies almost slaughtered them again. In the Early Church how many martyred people were there to the faith under Rome before the Church gained traction? Did God once lift them to safety? NO.

Now you pull passages and make claims that defy our Bible where God sometimes shields from harm and more often allows harm and we are expected to endure it and be His Light in the Darkness until the end.

Christians are being martyred now and I don't see God doing more than spiritually support them and seeing how we react to it as Christians in nice comfortable homes and a nice safe country where we are so far protected.

We are not supposed to have it easy if you're not being tested by giving your money and means until it hurts, your not preaching the Word to the people and helping the poor and needy and doing many good works. So no I think God is going to test the Western Churches by plunging us into blood and fire and suffering and see who is true to Him and who is not. Our God isn't always going to be nice to His people we are His servants and are to bend to His will and do His work if we don't then we will face his testing.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Let us look at Christian History from the foundations to now and even the History of the Hebrew People when did God ever make it easy or prevent His faithful from suffering the Hebrews were enslaved under the brutal lash by the Egyptians. Enemies harassed them throughout the OT and they were taken away into servitude again and enemies almost slaughtered them again. In the Early Church how many martyred people were there to the faith under Rome before the Church gained traction? Did God once lift them to safety? NO.

Now you pull passages and make claims that defy our Bible where God sometimes shields from harm and more often allows harm and we are expected to endure it and be His Light in the Darkness until the end.

Christians are being martyred now and I don't see God doing more than spiritually support them and seeing how we react to it as Christians in nice comfortable homes and a nice safe country where we are so far protected.

We are not supposed to have it easy if you're not being tested by giving your money and means until it hurts, your not preaching the Word to the people and helping the poor and needy and doing many good works. So no I think God is going to test the Western Churches by plunging us into blood and fire and suffering and see who is true to Him and who is not. Our God isn't always going to be nice to His people we are His servants and are to bend to His will and do His work if we don't then we will face his testing.

So, just to clarify, you are saying you don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, right? If you don't, I would be in agreement with you.