Do all Fundamentalist believe in a Pre Trib Rapture

[tkolter]

I'm just arguing I wouldn't teach the Rapture at all, if it happens then fine but I pointed out Biblically it would be a unique event since as its example the faithful rarely are ever fully shielded from all harm or the deprivations of evil - we are likely not going anywhere when the Antichrist comes. But you teach the Rapture and nothing happens how many Christians will stay the course feeling lied to? Few I suspect.

 

[Northbrook]

Can I tell my rapture joke?

**********
CONGREGATIONAL APATHY
By Lambrini

Two pastors of two different denominations are talking, and the first pastor says, "I read in the Bible that the members of my church will be raised first at the Second Coming."

"Really?" says the second pastor. "It says that?"

And the first pastor says, "Yes, it says 'The dead in Christ shall rise first'" *smile*!

Get it (congregational apathy)?

Heh heh,

Lambrini
Northbrook, IL

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I'm just arguing I wouldn't teach the Rapture at all, if it happens then fine but I pointed out Biblically it would be a unique event since as its example the faithful rarely are ever fully shielded from all harm or the deprivations of evil - we are likely not going anywhere when the Antichrist comes. But you teach the Rapture and nothing happens how many Christians will stay the course feeling lied to? Few I suspect.

Based on Scripture, the believers (dead and living) appear to be brought up into the sky with Jesus. But, I agree with you, that it doesn't appear to happen until Jesus is coming back. What Jesus Himself calls the last day, after the anti-christ and before the 1000 year reign.

However, I think those of us who have a real relationship with Jesus understand that we probably don't know as fully as we would like to think we know. And, to us, the relationship with Him is much much more important than the details of what happens and we aren't staying in this incredible and undeserved relationship contingent on things turning out the way we think they should (or would like them to).

 

[tkolter]

I call it the Rapture Cult okay it might happen the way the Left Behind Books said, good reads and all, but it wasn't the common teaching for a long time. I feel we are just risking handing the large swaths of the church over to the Satan's Regime when his presence as the Messiah says see you were not Raptured I'm not some dark threat by the One to Come see the Hindu and the Muslims and the Jews and the Christians largely come to me so take upon you my Mark and become one with the Global Government. And more will flock to him. A powerful and spiritually aware warrior of God, potent in learning and discernment and forming the Church will be the one sole light left and I'm sure will be the one threat to such a plan by Satan. Fire is coming and I plan to stand and deliver for God. Plus I have a bad feeling this antichrist spirit will possibly not be some man at first what happened in the days of Noah demons mated with humans creating a race of powerful men, I suspect the Mark is not a Mark but a defiling of human DNA with demonic filth a possession of flesh. I can see it say your lonely and sick and by having relations with an alien (demon) you get healed and fall into a big cult of personality it could be that insidious aliens posing demons the media is full of aliens and monsters having willing human partners. I'm saying its a plausible approach the Mark could be DNA to. My own reflection on the Tribulation has me coming up with alternative approaches to the issue and am still seeking discernment.

But how will a weekend Christian fare if for years we hammered the Rapture in some form, then the Great Deception happens, and the faithful are here and see the Beast for what it is I for one hopefully won't be fooled. But could be only done through God and His Son and the mighty Spirit of God can keep us all aware.

The many men and women here have me filled with some small hope when this is revealed some of God's people will be His instruments as we stand for Him and if He does spare us it would be a kindness. But it my wish to be His Servant regardless of what comes.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I call it the Rapture Cult okay it might happen the way the Left Behind Books said, good reads and all, but it wasn't the common teaching for a long time. I feel we are just risking handing the large swaths of the church over to the Satan's Regime when his presence as the Messiah says see you were not Raptured I'm not some dark threat by the One to Come see the Hindu and the Muslims and the Jews and the Christians largely come to me so take upon you my Mark and become one with the Global Government. And more will flock to him. A powerful and spiritually aware warrior of God, potent in learning and discernment and forming the Church will be the one sole light left and I'm sure will be the one threat to such a plan by Satan. Fire is coming and I plan to stand and deliver for God. Plus I have a bad feeling this antichrist spirit will possibly not be some man at first what happened in the days of Noah demons mated with humans creating a race of powerful men, I suspect the Mark is not a Mark but a defiling of human DNA with demonic filth a possession of flesh. I can see it say your lonely and sick and by having relations with an alien (demon) you get healed and fall into a big cult of personality it could be that insidious aliens posing demons the media is full of aliens and monsters having willing human partners. I'm saying its a plausible approach the Mark could be DNA to. My own reflection on the Tribulation has me coming up with alternative approaches to the issue and am still seeking discernment.

But how will a weekend Christian fare if for years we hammered the Rapture in some form, then the Great Deception happens, and the faithful are here and see the Beast for what it is I for one hopefully won't be fooled. But could be only done through God and His Son and the mighty Spirit of God can keep us all aware.

The many men and women here have me filled with some small hope when this is revealed some of God's people will be His instruments as we stand for Him and if He does spare us it would be a kindness. But it my wish to be His Servant regardless of what comes.

But that isn't the only "false teaching" that is being used to lead people astray. How many people who profess to be Christians refer to God as a monster if He sends people to hell, because they bought the unconditional love lie and read the Bible in such a way that they eliminate every word that doesn't fit their mentality? How do they do when things don't work out the way they have been told they should?

 

[DeaconDean]

Let us look at Christian History from the foundations to now and even the History of the Hebrew People when did God ever make it easy or prevent His faithful from suffering the Hebrews were enslaved under the brutal lash by the Egyptians. Enemies harassed them throughout the OT and they were taken away into servitude again and enemies almost slaughtered them again. In the Early Church how many martyred people were there to the faith under Rome before the Church gained traction? Did God once lift them to safety? NO.

Did Noah suffer the same as everybody else when the Deluge happened, or did God provide a way from it?

However, did Joseph have it hard under Potiphar? Sure, Potiphar's wife lied on Joseph, and he did spend some time in prison, but was he not raised second to Pharaoh?

Did every single Hebrew go into bondage under the Assyrians, Medes, Greeks, Romans? No.

Now you pull passages and make claims that defy our Bible where God sometimes shields from harm and more often allows harm and we are expected to endure it and be His Light in the Darkness until the end.

And you do the same thing from the OT perspective. You see Israel going to Egypt and for some 460 years, until Moses is raised, being in bondage. That right there corrects your POV.

Christians are being martyred now and I don't see God doing more than spiritually support them and seeing how we react to it as Christians in nice comfortable homes and a nice safe country where we are so far protected.

And? I live in America, for now, I'm relatively safe from persecution. However, at some point not to distant, I see it coming. But just because Missionaries in distant countries are being persecuted, does not mean we are not now.

We are not supposed to have it easy if you're not being tested by giving your money and means until it hurts, your not preaching the Word to the people and helping the poor and needy and doing many good works.

Stop right there. Produce scripture that REQUIRES Christians today to tithe.

Evidently you don't believe in the gifts of the Spirit. Is every Christian called to preach? No!

So no I think God is going to test the Western Churches by plunging us into blood and fire and suffering and see who is true to Him and who is not. Our God isn't always going to be nice to His people we are His servants and are to bend to His will and do His work if we don't then we will face his testing.

That being true, God will owe an apology to the billions who have died prior to that happening.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[tkolter]

Did Noah suffer the same as everybody else when the Deluge happened, or did God provide a way from it?

However, did Joseph have it hard under Potiphar? Sure, Potiphar's wife lied on Joseph, and he did spend some time in prison, but was he not raised second to Pharaoh?

Did every single Hebrew go into bondage under the Assyrians, Medes, Greeks, Romans? No.



And you do the same thing from the OT perspective. You see Israel going to Egypt and for some 460 years, until Moses is raised, being in bondage. That right there corrects your POV.



And? I live in America, for now, I'm relatively safe from persecution. However, at some point not to distant, I see it coming. But just because Missionaries in distant countries are being persecuted, does not mean we are not now.



Stop right there. Produce scripture that REQUIRES Christians today to tithe.

Evidently you don't believe in the gifts of the Spirit. Is every Christian called to preach? No!



That being true, God will owe an apology to the billions who have died prior to that happening.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Who said Tithe take the money you would give to a Church and use it for goodly works that may not be money donating ones time to a homeless shelter or helping a elderly neighbor out would be fine also. Noah is a good case the flesh of all humans was tainted by demons save Noah so God spared him and his family who were also clean of such sin so were spared the time will come again as in the days of Noah will it be so demons will again corrupt the flesh and genetics of humans whether the deception are aliens or demons openly being demons or something else. This time there will be no reprieve Satan himself will take fleshly form and lead the evil the time will be of fire and horror. As Satan meet the full might of God. We may be gone or here, but my belief is we will be here.

As for your other examples Joseph suffered first, the Hebrews suffered slavery and then times of losing God's protection and God still let people be martyred among the Apostles and Paul so he might have helped a bit, however in the end they died sometimes horribly. No lifting up, sparing the horror fully if anything in the End Times we might have some time bought to preach and serve God a bit longer only to end in our deaths by the demonic forces.

I serve our God and He demands much from us even our lives to do His purpose for us I preach, others might do scholarly work and still others have callings to be in a worldly manner and live a Godly life and raise children to serve God. In the end Satan will want us all dead if we don't bend to the dark ones will.

 

[DeaconDean]

Who said Tithe take the money you would give to a Church and use it for goodly works that may not be money donating ones time to a homeless shelter or helping a elderly neighbor out would be fine also. Noah is a good case the flesh of all humans was tainted by demons save Noah so God spared him and his family who were also clean of such sin so were spared the time will come again as in the days of Noah will it be so demons will again corrupt the flesh and genetics of humans whether the deception are aliens or demons openly being demons or something else. This time there will be no reprieve Satan himself will take fleshly form and lead the evil the time will be of fire and horror. As Satan meet the full might of God. We may be gone or here, but my belief is we will be here.

As for your other examples Joseph suffered first, the Hebrews suffered slavery and then times of losing God's protection and God still let people be martyred among the Apostles and Paul so he might have helped a bit, however in the end they died sometimes horribly. No lifting up, sparing the horror fully if anything in the End Times we might have some time bought to preach and serve God a bit longer only to end in our deaths by the demonic forces.

I serve our God and He demands much from us even our lives to do His purpose for us I preach, others might do scholarly work and still others have callings to be in a worldly manner and live a Godly life and raise children to serve God. In the end Satan will want us all dead if we don't bend to the dark ones will.

All I'm asking is that you produce for me one verse that tells me in the NT that I am required to tithe.

I'm not saying you shouldn't, just asking for the verse that "requires" me to.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Newtheran]

So after being involved in 2 Independent Baptist Churches and knowing of their teaching of the Pre Trib Rapture I was wondering is this normal for a fundamentalist view of Bible? As the more I have learn of this subject it is a different view by miles of my understanding.

I would consider myself a fundamentalist and don't. I would say however that most independent fundamental baptists do believe in it.

 

[SkyWriting]

There is no hint of any "pre-trib" rapture in the bible.

There is no hint in any poll numbers, that you are correct.

 

[SkyWriting]

All I'm asking is that you produce for me one verse that tells me in the NT that I am required to tithe.
I'm not saying you shouldn't, just asking for the verse that "requires" me to.

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do
and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

 

[Ozarks Prodigal]

How 2 Thessalonians 2, Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 mesh together is interesting to contemplate... the Millennium time frame is something that intrigues me quite a bit and instigates a lot of study on my part. It's not something that I worry about... it simply an interesting time frame to study. Those journeys to Jerusalem to see the Savior will certainly be an anticipated event I'm thinking and, because of Revelation 20:4, I'm looking forward to those times.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

How 2 Thessalonians 2, Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 mesh together is interesting to contemplate... the Millennium time frame is something that intrigues me quite a bit and instigates a lot of study on my part. It's not something that I worry about... it simply an interesting time frame to study. Those journeys to Jerusalem to see the Savior will certainly be an anticipated event I'm thinking and, because of Revelation 20:4, I'm looking forward to those times.

Hello O P and welcome to CF
You might find the threads below of interest:

Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

Pre-tribulation: The pre-tribulation position advocates that the rapture will occur before the beginning of the seven-year tribulation period, while the second coming will occur at the end of the seven-year tribulation period. Pre-tribulationists often describe the rapture as Jesus coming for the church and the second coming as Jesus coming with the church.

Pre-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

Members who chose to participate in this safe house should believe in the pretribulation rapture. This thread is for discussing end time events and prophecy (Biblical) from a pretrib point of view. Fellowship posts from all members are welcome.

• This safe house thread is for those members who believe in the pretribulation rapture.

• The safe house is for discussion and not for debate. Debate is defined as: "Engaging in argument by discussing opposing points."

• If a topic turns into a debate then staff will split the debate off into a new thread.

• Members who do not believe in the pretribulation rapture may post in fellowship only.

• No posts from this safe house may be quoted in other threads or used to start discussion threads in the main Eschatology forum.

You might also find these thread informative concerning the "Millennium":

Amil, Premil explained with Diagrams

There are a lot of topics discussing the 2 most popular systems of eschatology: Amillennialism and Premillennialism. I thought it might be useful to look at the subject with diagrams. Of course, each system has variations. My Premil diagram shows the posttrib variation. (The modern ‘pretrib - premil’ places the ‘rapture’ in front of the tribulation)
The main end-time events are depicted with simple icons. For example, the purple arrow represents the rapture. (‘catching away’ if you prefer) The throne icon represents judgement.

OK, Premil diagram coming up:

Premillennialism and amillennialism

Hi,

So throughout most of my christian walk I have been taught premilllennialism, and this is still something I believe. However I have been looking for a new church, and some of the larger protestaant denominations in my area mostly follow amillennialism.

I'm not sure if these are the right words, but basically the churches which support premillennialism have been focused on being ready for Jesus Christs' second coming and that the tribulation was near (whether they believe in the pre, mid or post tribulation rapture).

However the ones that support amillennialism believe that we are currently in the 1000 year reign and that we are just having to wait until Jesus comes back. I'm not even sure if they believe the tribulation will happen or whether it had already happened in the first centuries AD

I am after where I can get an objective reading from both of these viewpoints.
Thanks

Amillennialism

Being partial preterist, I have developed an interest in the Amill view, and would like to hear from those who are of this view.

First off, what is amillennialism.
[Feel free to add and other views to this]

https://www.theopedia.com/amillennialism
Overview

Amillennialism teaches that the thousand year reign of Christ mentioned in Revelation 20:1-6 is symbolic of the current church age, rather than a literal future 1000 year reign.
It contends that the period described in Revelation 20 was inaugurated (i.e. began) at Christ's resurrection and will continue until His Second Coming.

Amillennialism holds that while Christ's reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature, at the end of the church age Christ will return in final judgment and establish a permanent physical reign.
Also taught by amillennialism is that the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 has already occurred, and means that "he might not deceive the nations any longer" (Revelation 20:3) by preventing the spread of the gospel. ^[2]^

Principles

There are several principles which, while not entirely unique to amillennialism, combine to form the grounding from which this understanding of eschatology springs.

The analogy of faith and biblical theology
The analogy of faith is a Reformation principle for the interpretation of Scripture, which can be expressed as "Scripture interprets Scripture".
The fundamental principle of biblical theology is that of progressive revelation, which states that God reveals Himself in increasing measure throughout history, and that His revelation climaxes in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ.

As a result of these principles, we expect the New Testament to interpret to the Old, all the while showing us God, in Christ, more clearly...................

Amillennialist theologians

• Augustine
• Louis Berkhof
• Anthony Hoekema
• John Murray
• Vern Poythress
• Geerhardus Vos
• Greg Beale
• J. I. Packer

What is Amillennialism?

Modern times
Amillennialism has been widely held in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches as well as in the Roman Catholic Church, which generally embraces an Augustinian eschatology and which has deemed that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught."[11]

Amillennialism is also common among Protestant denominations such as the Lutheran, Reformed, Anglican, Methodist and many Messianic Jews.[22]
It represents the historical position of the Amish, Old Order Mennonite, and Conservative Mennonites (though among the more modern groups premillennialism has made inroads).

It is common among groups arising from the 19th century American Restoration Movement such as the Churches of Christ,[23]:125 Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and Christian churches and churches of Christ.

It also has a following amongst Baptist denominations such as The Association of Grace Baptist Churches in England.
Partial preterism is sometimes a component of amillennial hermeneutics.

Amillennialism declined in Protestant circles with the rise of Postmillennialism and the resurgence of Premillennialism in the 18th and 19th centuries, but it has regained prominence in the West after World War II.[citation needed]

 

[William Lefranc]

Hi; coming to the earth in power and glory and judgment (e.g., Matthew 24) and coming to the air for His church (e.g., 1 Thess. 4) seem to be contextual distinctions. It's not a matter of what 'all fundamentalists believe' but of what the contexts of such passages seem to indicate.

So, what makes you think that Mat. 24 and 1Thes 4 is about the future? The context of those passages forbids us to understand them as if they were written for us or worse, for a star trek future.

 

[William Lefranc]

How 2 Thessalonians 2, Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 mesh together is interesting to contemplate... the Millennium time frame is something that intrigues me quite a bit and instigates a lot of study on my part. It's not something that I worry about... it simply an interesting time frame to study. Those journeys to Jerusalem to see the Savior will certainly be an anticipated event I'm thinking and, because of Revelation 20:4, I'm looking forward to those times.

There is no such thing as a Millennial kingdom. Rev. 20 does not say that Jesus will come down to earth to reign somewhere (in Jerusalem?) for 1,000 literal years. One, there is not one single verse in the scriptures that states that Messiah or the Christ will reign on earth for that length of time.

Two, it is clear that when Jesus ascended to heaven, He began to reign, both as Lord and as Messiah over all creation (Mat. 28:18, Acts 2:36, Eph. 1:20-22; Rev. 1:5, etc.).

Three, we forget to realize that Jesus is God, therefore He is eternal and omnipresent which means He is already here by His Spirit that dwells inside of us.

There are some teachings that Christians have adopted by default that are nothing but bad assumptions that need to be exposed in order to embrace only what God's word teaches.

 

[Ozarks Prodigal]

There is no such thing as a Millennial kingdom. Rev. 20 does not say that Jesus will come down to earth to reign somewhere (in Jerusalem?) for 1,000 literal years. One, there is not one single verse in the scriptures that states that Messiah or the Christ will reign on earth for that length of time.

Two, it is clear that when Jesus ascended to heaven, He began to reign, both as Lord and as Messiah over all creation (Mat. 28:18, Acts 2:36, Eph. 1:20-22; Rev. 1:5, etc.).

Three, we forget to realize that Jesus is God, therefore He is eternal and omnipresent which means He is already here by His Spirit that dwells inside of us.

There are some teachings that Christians have adopted by default that are nothing but bad assumptions that need to be exposed in order to embrace only what God's word teaches.

Well, you've seen the scriptures I quoted which put Him physically on this planet (Zechariah 8:3 and 14:4 in particular) so we'll have to agree to disagree. As I said in earlier messages, I refuse to argue when I'm looking at scripture that verifies what I believe and, there is a paper on the subject from someone much more qualified to argue the points of discussion than I am. His paper is titled "The Kingdom of God and the Millennium". The link follows:

https://www.tms.edu/m/msj23m.pdf

Still need more persuading? Well, he's got an answer for that too... it's a book titled "Premillennialism: Why there must be a future Earthly Kingdom of Jesus". Here's the link:

https://www.amazon.com/Premillennia...576&s=books&sprefix=premillenn,aps,564&sr=1-1

No, I have no link to Vlach... I simply have read his paper and his book on this subject. And, I see no reason for me to start quoting his work in this forum. If you're truly interested in scriptural truth and aren't locked into doctrine as some are, you'll take a look and see if there's something to be learned. As I said in the earlier message, it's a subject I'm interested in but I'm certainly no authority in the matter. Vlach simply offers an argument I choose to believe. And, I find it fascinating that our Savior is ready to give people yet another chance, linked with meeting Him personally, to know and accept Him, this time without Satan's interference. Did I say fascinating? Yep, fascinating! What a Lord and Savior we have!!

God bless...

p.s. Didn't you ever wonder about that "rule with a rod of iron" thing?

 

[William Lefranc]

Well, you've seen the scriptures I quoted which put Him physically on this planet (Zechariah 8:3 and 14:4 in particular) so we'll have to agree to disagree. As I said in earlier messages, I refuse to argue when I'm looking at scripture that verifies what I believe and, there is a paper on the subject from someone much more qualified to argue the points of discussion than I am. His paper is titled "The Kingdom of God and the Millennium". The link follows:

https://www.tms.edu/m/msj23m.pdf

Still need more persuading? Well, he's got an answer for that too... it's a book titled "Premillennialism: Why there must be a future Earthly Kingdom of Jesus". Here's the link:

https://www.amazon.com/Premillennia...576&s=books&sprefix=premillenn,aps,564&sr=1-1

No, I have no link to Vlach... I simply have read his paper and his book on this subject. And, I see no reason for me to start quoting his work in this forum. If you're truly interested in scriptural truth and aren't locked into doctrine as some are, you'll take a look and see if there's something to be learned. As I said in the earlier message, it's a subject I'm interested in but I'm certainly no authority in the matter. Vlach simply offers an argument I choose to believe. And, I find it fascinating that our Savior is ready to give people yet another chance, linked with meeting Him personally, to know and accept Him, this time without Satan's interference. Did I say fascinating? Yep, fascinating! What a Lord and Savior we have!!

God bless...

p.s. Didn't you ever wonder about that "rule with a rod of iron" thing?

A couple of things that are very important. Isolated verses plucked up from an OT book has no value unless you are willing to look at its historical context first, and see whether it was fulfilled or not in its own time. Second, we can’t take scriptures from the OT at random and give it our own interpretation without finding clear support in the NT, and third, we need to compare what we are bringing up out of the OT with the finished work of Christ. The general rule is that scripture interprets scripture. If you don’t find NT biblical support from an OT verse, you got a dead leaf that has been plucked from the tree.

Moreover, if we ignore the cross and what Jesus accomplished in His finished work, we will miss God’s overall plan for the ages which includes eternal redemption for all, including the Israel that was judged in A.D. 70.

So, what’s the need for a Millennium then? Why should we violate God’s word where Jesus empathically said that His kingdom is not of this world (Jn 18:37), but “apparently” later He changed His mind?

 

[Ozarks Prodigal]

I know a wall when I see one... we'll have to agree to disagree. However I will comment that Vlach's arguments are much stronger and have scripture to include scriptural logic behind them. Isolated verses? I'm afraid not... that's not happening in Vlach's paper.

And if you're bored, you can go back and take a look at Psalms 2 and Revelation 2... very carefully this time. Take note of what God has to say about location and time frame in Ps 2 and Rev 2. But, I digress... you're evidently locked into your viewpoint and, even though I've offered you a detailed paper with plenty of scriptural backup written by a very knowledgeable person, it's a no-go. Thus, we're at an impasse.

Have a great day...

 

[William Lefranc]

I know a wall when I see one... we'll have to agree to disagree. However, I will comment that Vlach's arguments are much stronger and have scripture to include scriptural logic behind them. Isolated verses? I'm afraid not... that's not happening in Vlach's paper.

And if you're bored, you can go back and take a look at Psalms 2 and Revelation 2... very carefully this time. Take note of what God has to say about location and time frame in Ps 2 and Rev 2. But, I digress... you're evidently locked into your viewpoint and, even though I've offered you a detailed paper with plenty of scriptural back-ups written by a very knowledgeable person, it's a no-go. Thus, we're at an impasse.

Have a great day...

Like I said, you take Christ out of the picture, you have a bible where everything goes according to the whim of modernistic theologians. Ps 2 is the revelation that Jesus sits on the throne NOW ruling from on high after He ascended to the throne in Acts 1. Rev. 2 is preceded by Rev. 1:1 where the entire book is about the Revelation of Jesus Christ, not the revelation of a star trek futuristic fables. Jesus is Lord now and rules from heaven now, not some fabricated Millennial fable.

I explain what I believe without giving out external links because I know what I believe and I know why I believe what I believe.

Your links, on the other hand, promotes false dispensational beliefs that the word of God does not teach.

By the way, I didn't challenge you so that you can convince me what to believe. I challenged you so that you can think for yourself instead of letting futuristic gurus tell you what the bible means. It is not I who is locked into my own views, but you. I explain things on my own without the need for links.

You too have a nice day,

 

[Ozarks Prodigal]

Like I said, you take Christ out of the picture, you have a bible where everything goes according to the whim of modernistic theologians. Ps 2 is the revelation that Jesus sits on the throne NOW ruling from on high after He ascended to the throne in Acts 1. Rev. 2 is preceded by Rev. 1:1 where the entire book is about the Revelation of Jesus Christ, not the revelation of a star trek futuristic fables. Jesus is Lord now and rules from heaven now, not some fabricated Millennial fable.

I explain what I believe without giving out external links because I know what I believe and I know why I believe what I believe.

Your links, on the other hand, promotes false dispensational beliefs that the word of God does not teach.

By the way, I didn't challenge you so that you can convince me what to believe. I challenged you so that you can think for yourself instead of letting futuristic gurus tell you what the bible means. It is not I who is locked into my own views, but you. I explain things on my own without the need for links.

You too have a nice day,

No, if there's one thing that I'm not, that is locked into doctrine. I'm always open to someone using scripture against scripture with some history thrown in for good measure to get their point across. I'm too prone for mistakes to think that I've got the one and only answer. Plus I spent some years in a church that taught that kind of approach through my childhood and some years after that. However, I studied my way out of that church and now I simply pray a lot, study to the best of my ability, watch for those that can present a strong, logical case for a viewpoint outside of my take on the scripture and try my best to keep an open mind.

Do I have a tendency to take things a bit too literally in the Bible? Absolutely! I'm not a Bible scholar, just a student and I do make mistakes. However, it wasn't a futuristic guru that got my attention on this subject... it was Zechariah with John in Revelation tied into the mix. Plus there are other scriptures that have an impact here. But, this is a trail you're not interested in so it's pointless to continue. No, unless a person is able to reinforce their position on the meaning of scripture quite heavily with other scripture that leaves no doubt, I don't pay much attention.

One last thing... I never place too much confidence on my interpretation of scripture and I'm very suspicious of others unless, like I said above, they are heavy with scripture against scripture that backs up their viewpoint in a very logical manner. No word twisting and assumptions don't interest me... I've been exposed to twisting of the scriptures in the past and if I think that's what's happening, I'll simply back away and reserve judgement until later with later possibly being until I get to ask Jesus some questions directly. I've got the important stuff down solid... the points such as the ones we're talking about are not deal breakers. They're simply very interesting to me because of the possible ramifications of the actions I believe will happen because of what Zechariah and John have to say.

Ok, I'm done... I just didn't want to leave an impression that I in any way think of myself as a Biblical authority because it ain't so! I'll follow you for a while and see what you have to say in the future... time will tell whether or not I believe you have a good grip on scriptural direction.