Did God predestine the Fall?

[dad]

Then you missed the point of Romans opening chapters entirely, we are all guilty.

We are guilty until we choose Jesus. Then we are washed and clean.

We are all rejectors and guilty before God. You should really be more careful how you handle such an important passage of Scripture.

There is a distinction between people who have rejected Jesus by choice, and the people who have not accepted or rejected Him. The strong delusion thing comes to those who have rejected Jesus NOT to all men.

You jump from free will to the gifts and callings of God, you really should be mindful that there is something called redemption in the middle.

Not for free choice! Even the wicked and unregenerate have that! No need to be redeemed to make a choice to reject God, otherwise how could there be a hell?!

The gospel for you is choices, the gospel in the New Testament is the cross.

The choice to reject or accept the cross. We are asked to repent and choose God and decide from cover to cover in the bible.

To omit the cross is to omit Christ and render your choice meaningless.

By the cross of Christ we do have a choice between Jesus and hell.

 

[dad]

I gave you a clear answer. Are you deliberately being difficult?

And no, God is no respecter of persons. If you read the context of that reference, you’ll find it means the opposite of what you think it means.

No you didn't. Where is the yes or no? I can't figure out even what you are trying to say.

 

[dad]

So when it was delivered to Israel, how did the other nations know about it?

When!? Now? Most! Then...God's people knew. Why would they be asked to choose if they could not 'really' exercise free will? Why would Adam get a CHOICE? Why would Jesus ask men to make a choice for Him and to believe? Even angels in Revelation gave men a choice. The apostles gave men a choice. The final 2 witness in Rev 11 give men a choice.

 

[dad]

What did they refuse to do? Look at the text. Did they refuse to come, or to gather the children in the manner of Jesus?

Whatever they did or did not do, they had a choice! If they 'would not' that means they would not CHOOSE Him.

 

[dad]

We have gone past that now. And you know that. I’m guessing you just want to play games now. It’s usually what synergists do when they know they have no biblical argument.

We have gone past Adam and clear across the bible where we see that man has had a choice. I don't play games and lurkers can see my position is clear. I say God gave man kind free choice from the garden till the end. All men, so that they can choose Him or Satan. Good or evil. Salvation or damnation.

 

[dad]

Me, too. I’ve stated it clearly.

Did God predestine the Fall?

So let's see the clear yes or no to this question..

"do all men on earth have the 100% actual, real absolutely free will that is a gift of God Almighty since the creation to man, to choose death or life, God or hell."

From your reply, it seems you are saying NO, you seem to claim that God gave some the right nature to avoid hell somehow. If that were true, then He simply damned most men with no choice, and even those who escape hell had no choice because they apparently were so special that they were somehow selected to have some sort of wonder nature.

 

[Hammster]

No you didn't. Where is the yes or no? I can't figure out even what you are trying to say.

I'll say it this way, then.

Yes, man has a will that can choose or not chose, but cannot choose against his nature. Man, in his natural state (which the Bible talks about, incidental) could choose to follow Christ, but he won’t. He’s such an enemy of God that he even denies His existence (see Romans 1).

If God left mankind in this state, all would rightfully end up in hell. But God has decided to save some, so He gave some new natures (born again) and with that new hearts, they freely chose to repent and believe.

 

[Hammster]

When!? Now? Most! Then...God's people knew. Why would they be asked to choose if they could not 'really' exercise free will? Why would Adam get a CHOICE? Why would Jesus ask men to make a choice for Him and to believe? Even angels in Revelation gave men a choice. The apostles gave men a choice. The final 2 witness in Rev 11 give men a choice.

You are (once again) (sigh) not answering the question. Where’s the choice to everyone outside of Israel at the time God said that?

 

[Hammster]

Whatever they did or did not do, they had a choice! If they 'would not' that means they would not CHOOSE Him.

*sigh*

Can you just be up front and say that you aren’t going to answer questions instead of giving replies that have nothing to do with the questions?

 

[Hammster]

We have gone past Adam and clear across the bible where we see that man has had a choice. I don't play games and lurkers can see my position is clear. I say God gave man kind free choice from the garden till the end. All men, so that they can choose Him or Satan. Good or evil. Salvation or damnation.

And that didn’t address the point. So if that’s going to be your answer regardless of the question, then okay.

 

[Hammster]

So let's see the clear yes or no to this question..

"do all men on earth have the 100% actual, real absolutely free will that is a gift of God Almighty since the creation to man, to choose death or life, God or hell."

From your reply, it seems you are saying NO, you seem to claim that God gave some the right nature to avoid hell somehow. If that were true, then He simply damned most men with no choice, and even those who escape hell had no choice because they apparently were so special that they were somehow selected to have some sort of wonder nature.

They had a choice.

Let me challenge you with this. To effectively counter an argument, you need to be able to explain it. Can you give an accurate understanding of the Reformed position on salvation in a way that a Calvinist would present it? Based on your replies so far, I’m guessing no. But maybe you’ll surprise me.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, man has a will that can choose or not chose, but cannot choose against his nature. Man, in his natural state (which the Bible talks about, incidental) could choose to follow Christ, but he won’t. He’s such an enemy of God that he even denies His existence (see Romans 1).

Then ‘faith comes by hearing’ in the Bible is not true?

Your position theologically (correct me if I am wrong, do not want to put words in your mouth) is that even though the Bible CLEARLY tells us how we get faith, by hearing the gospel and /or Good News that Christ saves sinners as a free gift, your position is that faith does not come by hearing and your unbiblical position is that no one comes to Christ or chooses Christ at all without an ‘act of God’ /regeneration.

Although Calvinist like to ‘claim’ a clear Biblical position of Sola Scriptura, when it is not in alignment with their theology, they toss the Bible out into a waste pile. #contridictions

 

[Hammster]

Then ‘faith comes by hearing’ in the Bible is not true?

Your position theologically (correct me if I am wrong, do not want to put words in your mouth) is that even though the Bible CLEARLY tells us how we get faith, by hearing the gospel and /or Good News that Christ saves sinners as a free gift, your position is that faith does not come by hearing and your unbiblical position is that no one comes to Christ or chooses Christ at all without an ‘act of God’ /regeneration.

Although Calvinist like to ‘claim’ a clear Biblical position of Sola Scriptura, when it is not in alignment with their theology, they toss the Bible out into a waste pile. #contridictions

God ordains the means (faith coming by hearing) and the end (regeneration).

We hear, we are regenerated, we believe.

 

[Hammster]

Although Calvinist like to ‘claim’ a clear Biblical position of Sola Scriptura, when it is not in alignment with their theology, they toss the Bible out into a waste pile. #contridictions

There’s no contradictions. It’s just that you can’t reconcile it with your traditions.

 

[ToBeLoved]

God ordains the means (faith coming by hearing) and the end (regeneration).

We hear, we are regenerated, we believe.

Verses.

Because the Bible says that we come to Christ by faith.

And that faith comes by hearing.

So the step you put in the middle (ie regeneration) show that concept is Biblically part of the process. Because what you are indicating is that we do not choose God on our own, but that the Holy Spirit and God, purposefully thwart man’s God-given free will in the process, which I do not see Biblically.

Verses and Biblical proof text.

 

[dad]

I'll say it this way, then.

Yes, man has a will that can choose or not chose, but cannot choose against his nature.

Who wrote that rule?
I thought choosing Jesus was the way we got our nature changed.

Man, in his natural state (which the Bible talks about, incidental) could choose to follow Christ, but he won’t. He’s such an enemy of God that he even denies His existence (see Romans 1).

All men are in their natural state when born. We must be born again. Where does it say select groups are born in some unnatural state? We are all born in sin and only by repenting/choosing Jesus do we get changed.

If God left mankind in this state, all would rightfully end up in hell. But God has decided to save some, so He gave some new natures (born again) and with that new hearts, they freely chose to repent and believe.

Yet Jesus loved the whole world and died for all. That bit about how 'god gave SOME new natures' is made up.
He gives all and any who call on Him new natures.

 

[dad]

You are (once again) (sigh) not answering the question. Where’s the choice to everyone outside of Israel at the time God said that?

Where is anything outside of Israel at that time in Scripture? God talks to His people, they pass it down. One cannot limit the words of God to His people spoken long ago to just that time in every instance. All through the bible we see people asked to decide/choose. From Adam till the second coming. So that verse is quite applicable to Christians also. Other verses, say about special diets would not be, since the diets are not found throughout the bible for all.

 

[dad]

*sigh*

Can you just be up front and say that you aren’t going to answer questions instead of giving replies that have nothing to do with the questions?

I raised the issue of how Jesus had tried to gather folks in Jerusalem for a long time, but they would not come to Him. The issue is whether they had or were given a choice to come - and it is beyond any reasonable question that they were.

 

[dad]

They had a choice.

Let me challenge you with this. To effectively counter an argument, you need to be able to explain it. Can you give an accurate understanding of the Reformed position on salvation in a way that a Calvinist would present it? Based on your replies so far, I’m guessing no. But maybe you’ll surprise me.

You are representing that opinion here. So far we see you are claiming that some supposed select special people on earth were given some sort of special unusual natures so that they could be saved, whilst the rest of the world is doomed to hell. To me that is saying Jesus died for nothing, since no none really has a chance or choice anyhow to accept His sacrifice. Why bother suffering and coming to this filthy sin infested world, and being beaten and murdered if no one has the real choice to go to hell or heaven anyhow?
Because, from what you seemed to say so far, we have no real choice, except if were are the special few that somehow were selected with no choice of their own, that somehow have some sort of choice.

That would mean the folks destined for hell had zero choice and the folks selected to be able to have a choice were pre programmed.

 

[Hammster]

Verses.

Because the Bible says that we come to Christ by faith.

And that faith comes by hearing.

So the step you put in the middle (ie regeneration) show that concept is Biblically part of the process. Because what you are indicating is that we do not choose God on our own, but that the Holy Spirit and God, purposefully thwart man’s God-given free will in the process, which I do not see Biblically.

Verses and Biblical proof text.

Nothing I said even remotely stated that man’s will is thwarted. Please stop making things up.