Did God predestine the Fall?

[mark kennedy]

The text doesn’t talk about gathering hens.

This is what I’m talking about. You cannot, or will not, stick to the text.

No, he doesn't do that.

 

[mark kennedy]

That is why Jesus died, red. We now have a choice not to be condemned any more. That is what we call the gospel, or good news.

I thought I saw the glimmer of the gospel there, let's see. You do realize that because of our first parent we are sinners right? The only way out of this mess is the death of Christ, the power of the Holy Spirit and the new nature? It's not a trick question, you realize this right?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Let's not play games. God planned the fall, He decreed it and is glorified for it. In the first place sinners are saved by Christ alone and God the Father's wrath is satisfied when sinners are punished.


GOD PREDETERMINED THE FALL OF ADAM:

this fell under his decree, as all things do that come to pass in the world; there is nothing comes to pass without his determining will, “Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?” (Lam. 3:37), nothing is done, or can be done, God not willing it should be done: that the fall of Adam was by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God is certain; because the sufferings and death of Christ, by which is the redemption of men from that sin, and all others, were ordained before the foundation of the world; and which must have been precarious and uncertain, if Adam’s fall was not by a like decree (Acts 2:23; 4:28; 1 Pet. 1:20), but then neither the foreknowledge of God, nor any decree of God, laid Adam under a necessity of sinning; it is true, there arises from hence a necessity of immutability, that is, that the things God has decreed should unchangeably come to pass, but not a necessity of co-action or force; as Judas and the Jews sinned freely, the one in betraying, the other in putting Christ to death; so Adam sinned freely, without force or compulsion, notwithstanding any decree of God concerning him; so that these do not make God at all chargeable with being the author of his sin; he and he alone was the author of it. - John Gill
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Yours in the Lord who saves to the uttermost.

jm

This is very odd theology.

When we start thinking that God is glorified in sacrificing part of Himself and that Jesus ( literally God lowering Himself to become man) and that man being separated from God was all part of God’s plan.

I would think about the attributes that you are ascribing to a Holy God.

Have you ever truly and in-depth studied Holiness?

 

[ToBeLoved]

No, he doesn't do that.

I think he is talking about this verse which talks about the Old Testament Hebrews.

Matthew 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem! The city who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her. How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, yet you were not willing!

God had hoped they would have been a light to the world

 

[dad]

You are the only one talking about sanctification. Everyone else is talking about regeneration and justification.

Actually I was concerned with the aspect of Calvinist thought that leaves man no real free choice to his eternal destiny. If you want to discuss bible, fine, if you want to discuss religious denominational terminology, this may not be the thread?

 

[dad]

Where are we commanded to ask to receive His free gift?

Anywhere we are asked to choose or reject.

De 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

[mark kennedy]

I think he is talking about this verse which talks about the Old Testament Hebrews.

Matthew 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem! The city who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her. How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, yet you were not willing!

God had hoped they would have been a light to the world

Yea I recognized the verse, I was just kidding in tgat post.

 

[dad]

The text doesn’t talk about gathering hens.

This is what I’m talking about. You cannot, or will not, stick to the text.

Right, gathering chicks by the hen.

 

[dad]

You are the only one in this conversation that thinks God saves us against our will, you couldn't be more wrong. It's not that your will is meaningless, it just is not what saves you. You can't have a will that lines up with the will of God without being born again..

No, I do not think God saves us against our will. I think that people that say our will is insignificant (as some posters here have said, if I recall) are basically saying we had no choice. Rather than a clear and real choice to reject or accept Jesus, it seems most predestination supporters here of the Calvinist persuasion seem to think that most men are doomed to hell regardless of choice, because they were destined for hell.

Not sure why many posters here seem to obfuscate, confuse, and avoid the core issue?

Yes, at conversion you have some kind of a choice when it comes to believing what you heard. I've never encountered a Calvinist that denies that. You need a new will, a new heart, a new nature. It's called the gospel and new birth, surly you have heard of it

Some kind of choice?? So let's be clear, do all men on earth have an absolute choice to accept Jesus or to reject Him, and this is what determines our eternal destiny...yes or no?

This would mean that the predestination spoken of in the bible refers to the fact that the choice is there for all men, and many will choose Jesus, therefore they are the group spoken of as being predestined. In other words it was destined that a group would exist because Jesus made the way possible, the choice possible.

 

[dad]

I thought I saw the glimmer of the gospel there, let's see. You do realize that because of our first parent we are sinners right? The only way out of this mess is the death of Christ, the power of the Holy Spirit and the new nature? It's not a trick question, you realize this right?

Correct. What I do not agree with is the idea that some posters here seem to have, that it was all pre determined as to who would be where.

 

[Hammster]

Actually I was concerned with the aspect of Calvinist thought that leaves man no real free choice to his eternal destiny. If you want to discuss bible, fine, if you want to discuss religious denominational terminology, this may not be the thread?

There is no aspect of Calvinism that leaves man with no real free choice. So what exactly are you discussing?

 

[Hammster]

Anywhere we are asked to choose or reject.

De 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Did that go to all of mankind, or just the Israelites?

 

[Hammster]

Right, gathering chicks by the hen.

Can you point to the specific part that says anyone was unwilling to be gathered?

 

[Hammster]

No, I do not think God saves us against our will.

Nobody in Calvinism does, either.

 

[Hammster]

Correct. What I do not agree with is the idea that some posters here seem to have, that it was all pre determined as to who would be where.

Does God know the end?

 

[dad]

There is no aspect of Calvinism that leaves man with no real free choice. So what exactly are you discussing?

Sorry, what you claim is not clear. Are you saying you believe all men on earth have 100% free will to choose or reject salvation, and that God left that all up to ma? Yes or no?

 

[dad]

Did that go to all of mankind, or just the Israelites?

What are you suggesting, that Israel had free choice bit maybe we don't? Or..? I would think that God has allowed man to choose since the garden. Adam had a real choice it was NOT pre determined or decided, do you agree or not?

 

[dad]

Can you point to the specific part that says anyone was unwilling to be gathered?

Can you point to a part of absolutely rejecting God's spirit for generations and doing so violently that suggests they were chicks wanting to be gathered by God!!? OBVIOUSLY they chose to refuse.

 

[dad]

Nobody in Calvinism does, either.

So we are not pre destined to be saved or damned?

 

[dad]

Does God know the end?

Did He fix the game is the operative question. Or do all men on earth have the 100% actual, real absolutely free will that is a gift of God Almighty since the creation to man, to choose death or life, God or hell..etc? This all should be crystal clear.