Did God predestine the Fall?

[Hammster]

Where is anything outside of Israel at that time in Scripture? God talks to His people, they pass it down. One cannot limit the words of God to His people spoken long ago to just that time in every instance. All through the bible we see people asked to decide/choose. From Adam till the second coming. So that verse is quite applicable to Christians also. Other verses, say about special diets would not be, since the diets are not found throughout the bible for all.

Did all of humanity hear that verse when it was spoken? Or just Israel? I’ll keep asking until you answer.

 

[Hammster]

I raised the issue of how Jesus had tried to gather folks in Jerusalem for a long time, but they would not come to Him. The issue is whether they had or were given a choice to come - and it is beyond any reasonable question that they were.

THE VERSE DOESN’T SAY THAT!!!

Stop reading into the text that which is not there.

 

[Hammster]

Why bother suffering and coming to this filthy sin infested world, and being beaten and murdered if no one has the real choice to go to hell or heaven anyhow?

BECAUSE SIN HAD TO BE ATONED FOR!!!

 

[Hammster]

You are representing that opinion here. So far we see you are claiming that some supposed select special people on earth were given some sort of special unusual natures so that they could be saved, whilst the rest of the world is doomed to hell. To me that is saying Jesus died for nothing, since no none really has a chance or choice anyhow to accept His sacrifice. Why bother suffering and coming to this filthy sin infested world, and being beaten and murdered if no one has the real choice to go to hell or heaven anyhow?
Because, from what you seemed to say so far, we have no real choice, except if were are the special few that somehow were selected with no choice of their own, that somehow have some sort of choice.

That would mean the folks destined for hell had zero choice and the folks selected to be able to have a choice were pre programmed.

So I guess you can’t address the challenge. You don’t even know what you’re arguing against.

 

[ToBeLoved]

There’s no contradictions. It’s just that you can’t reconcile it with your traditions.

What traditions are those?

Because my faith is 100% Bible based and I go to a Bible based church with the teaching being book by book, chapter and verses.

I am the person always asking for Bible verses and proof texts.

I am a little insulted you using that term ‘tradition’ with me. We’ve had enough conversations

 

[ToBeLoved]

Nothing I said even remotely stated that man’s will is thwarted. Please stop making things up.

Irresistible grace that entire theology goes against free will.

Let’s not play dumb with this

What point Calvinist are you then?

 

[Hammster]

What traditions are those?

Because my faith is 100% Bible based and I go to a Bible based church with the teaching being book by book, chapter and verses.

I am the person always asking for Bible verses and proof texts.

I am a little insulted you using that term ‘tradition’ with me. We’ve had enough conversations

How insulting do you think it is to have everything I’ve ever discussed with you about theology ignored and your straw men put in their place? I’ll challenge you as well to give a synopsis of what I actually believe. I’m sure you cannot do it. But you might surprise me.

 

[Hammster]

Irresistible grace that entire theology goes against free will.

Let’s not play dumb with this

What point Calvinist are you then?

*sigh*

It doesn’t go against free will. I guess this addresses my post above.

 

[ToBeLoved]

How insulting do you think it is to have everything I’ve ever discussed with you about theology ignored and your straw men put in their place? I’ll challenge you as well to give a synopsis of what I actually believe. I’m sure you cannot do it. But you might surprise me.

So you are insulted ( first sentence and reprimanded me for that) and THEN in your third sentence, choose to insult me by saying “but you might surprise me”.

Christian tit for tat?

I find it hard to believe you truly feel insulted when you then insult. At least be honest about it. Lol

 

[Hammster]

So you are insulted ( first sentence and reprimanded me for that) and THEN in your third sentence, choose to insult me by saying “but you might surprise me”.

Christian tit for tat?

I find it hard to believe you truly feel insulted when you then insult. At least be honest about it. Lol

I don’t actually think you can articulate what I believe.

 

[dad]

Did all of humanity hear that verse when it was spoken? Or just Israel? I’ll keep asking until you answer.

I am part of humanity and I hear it now, does that count? The bible was also written for people to come! But it doesn't matter anyhow the point was that He asked people to choose. He asked Adam to choose also, does that mean what He said to Adam has to be for all humanity? He asked..pretty well everyone good and bad for all time to choose!

 

[dad]

THE VERSE DOESN’T SAY THAT!!!

Stop reading into the text that which is not there.

OK, let's review.

Lu 13:34 - O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Looks like God called or tried to have people repent and gather to Him. Are you with me so far?

 

[Hammster]

I am part of humanity and I hear it now, does that count? The bible was also written for people to come! But it doesn't matter anyhow the point was that He asked people to choose. He asked Adam to choose also, does that mean what He said to Adam has to be for all humanity? He asked..pretty well everyone good and bad for all time to choose!

No, it doesn’t count. And (not surprisingly) doesn’t answer the question.

I feel like Charlie Brown and you are Lucy holding the football.

 

[dad]

BECAUSE SIN HAD TO BE ATONED FOR!!!

The issue is the sin of..WHO? If it is all men, then we could not have most of the world tossed into hell with no choice. To be clear you seem to be positing that only a select few had somewhat real free choice to choose their fate, is this correct?

 

[dad]

So I guess you can’t address the challenge. You don’t even know what you’re arguing against.

Since all I have is your posts, I admit it is confusing as to exactly what your position is.

 

[Hammster]

OK, let's review.

Lu 13:34 - O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Looks like God called or tried to have people repent and gather to Him. Are you with me so far?

IT DOES NOT SAY THEY WOULD COME. IT SAYS THAT THEY WOULD NOT GATHER THE CHILDREN LIKE CHRIST.

 

[Hammster]

Since all I have is your posts, I admit it is confusing as to exactly what your position is.

I’m sure it is.

 

[Hammster]

The issue is the sin of..WHO? If it is all men, then we could not have most of the world tossed into hell with no choice. To be clear you seem to be positing that only a select few had somewhat real free choice to choose their fate, is this correct?

No, that’s not correct. In fact, choice wasn’t even addressed in my post. Atonement of sin was.

 

[dad]

No, it doesn’t count. And (not surprisingly) doesn’t answer the question.

I feel like Charlie Brown and you are Lucy holding the football.

How can you claim the people of all generations hearing God's word do not count at all?? Jesus even spelled it out that He had other sheep to come in the fold. We also see things 'written for the generation to come' etc etc.

Ps 102:18 - This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.

In Daniel some prophesies were sealed up for generations, so they were written for folks in the end time. Etc.

 

[dad]

I’m sure it is.

Well maybe some lurker can explain your position for us all, so it is clear. We can wait I guess.