Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[Leaf473]

Now the questions you are not answering with a direct yes or no.

1. 1 Cor 7:19 - did the Holy Spirit make a mistake to say "circumcision does not matter...what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" when in your view either they both matter or they both do not matter and there can be no such distinction between them?​

​

2. Ex 20:7 did the command to not take God's name in vain get deleted/abolished/ended/cease-to-apply (use what you wish) as soon as the Carpenter from Nazareth paid tithe???​

​

3. Do you ever wonder why it is that even those opposing the Sabbath in the quoted section above - do not join in such short sighted "solutions"?​

Here we have our differences distilled down to 3 short questions to assist the reader of this thread.

1) No. The Holy Spirit didn't make a mistake.

However, I don't think that the "commandments of God" in that passage necessarily refers to things from the law. So I believe the question is invalid.

If any man thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him recognize the things which I write to you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 14

Peace be with you.

To be continued...

 

[Leaf473]

Now the questions you are not answering with a direct yes or no.

1. 1 Cor 7:19 - did the Holy Spirit make a mistake to say "circumcision does not matter...what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" when in your view either they both matter or they both do not matter and there can be no such distinction between them?​

​

2. Ex 20:7 did the command to not take God's name in vain get deleted/abolished/ended/cease-to-apply (use what you wish) as soon as the Carpenter from Nazareth paid tithe???​

​

3. Do you ever wonder why it is that even those opposing the Sabbath in the quoted section above - do not join in such short sighted "solutions"?​

Here we have our differences distilled down to 3 short questions to assist the reader of this thread.

2) No.
However, the entire law was fulfilled when
Heaven and Earth passed away,
and/or
All was accomplished.

Peace be with you.

To be continued...

 

[Leaf473]

Now the questions you are not answering with a direct yes or no.

1. 1 Cor 7:19 - did the Holy Spirit make a mistake to say "circumcision does not matter...what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" when in your view either they both matter or they both do not matter and there can be no such distinction between them?​

​

2. Ex 20:7 did the command to not take God's name in vain get deleted/abolished/ended/cease-to-apply (use what you wish) as soon as the Carpenter from Nazareth paid tithe???​

​

3. Do you ever wonder why it is that even those opposing the Sabbath in the quoted section above - do not join in such short sighted "solutions"?​

Here we have our differences distilled down to 3 short questions to assist the reader of this thread.

3) Which quoted section? Please clarify, thanks!

Peace be with you.

 

[Leaf473]

I also invite all to look at "the things" those nations did which they were defiled them and the land. Not a one concerned resting / not resting every seventh day.

A useful observation!

 

[Leaf473]

From: #808
============ begin


As a stated a number of pages ago - Heb 7 ended the Levitical priesthood at the cross - but that does not delete the command to not take God's name in vain.

How can I help you to see the oft repeated response at this point?
========================== end


Step 1 -- try reading the post you say you are responding to. There we find your question "answered again"

As a stated a number of pages ago - Heb 7 ended the Levitical priesthood at the cross - but that does not delete the command to not take God's name in vain.


Is that helping you in some way to get around to answering the question?

No, I'm not interested in trying to get around any questions.

I didn't see your answer to the question of which of the two things happened in Matthew 5:18.

Peace be with you.

 

[Leaf473]

BobRyan said:
So your claim is that as soon as the Nazarine Carpenter paid tithe - then the law to not take God's name in vain ended along with all of God's Word all His commands?

Heaven and Earth are still here - but Heb 10 and 7 remind us that the laws for animal sacrifice and offering end at the cross - so also levitical priesthood.

Is this helping you because in 1 Cor 7:19 we still have "circumcision does not matter - but what matters (STILL) is KEEPING the Commandments of God" so that in Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" -- still.

So when we see Earth vanish then you claim the command against taking God's name in vain will vanish? Seriously?

Or do you say that already happened as soon at the Carpenter from Nazareth paid tithe???

First let's establish which of the two conditions from Matthew 5:18 have happened, if any.

Once we establish that, then we can say whether the entire law is intact, or if parts of it have passed away.

Peace be with you, my man!

 

[Leaf473]

I am fine with that. And do you also agree that it is still a sin to take God's name in vain?

(you know, the easy and obvious part that almost every denomination on Earth and Christian on this board will freely admit to)

If none of the letters about tithing have passed away from the law, why do you not keep them?

Numbers 18
“To the children of Levi, behold, I have given all the tithe in Israel for an inheritance, in return for their service which they serve, even the service of the Tent of Meeting.
_________________
It is a sin to take God's name in vain because it conflicts with the instruction to love others as Christ loved us, not because there is an instruction about it in the law.

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

 

[Leaf473]

It appears that Paul agrees - he repeatedly refers to "the law": he does not subdivide into parts.

Let's be clear: if one has agenda to promote that some parts of the law are retained, one strategy, not justifiable of course, is to arbitrarily impose categories of law to evade what I believe Scripture clearly teaches: the law is effectively a unitary whole that served to mark out the Jew as distinct from his pagan neighbour.

Yes, and Jesus simply says "the Law and the Prophets", or "the law".

 

[ralliann]

So in your proposal --
1. priests could not take God's name in vain, worship false gods or murder - but the rest of Israel and all mankind were free to sin??
2. Or you are saying that priests and pastors can promote the Gospel - even on Sabbath without breaking it because it is a provision in the Sabbath to allow for all that is necessary to have a "holy convocation" including the priests work of circumcision in the temple -- and all that includes Bible teaching?

If #2 - then how is that an answer to any of the following?

=====================================================
BobRyan said:

Now the questions you are not answering with a direct yes or no.

1. 1 Cor 7:19 - did the Holy Spirit make a mistake to say "circumcision does not matter...what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" when in your view either they both matter or they both do not matter and there can be no such distinction between them?

Neither save us. they are for a shadow, a pattern.
Jesus told his disciples to go and teach the nations all he commanded them. Apostolic teaching by Paul an apostle to the gentiles never commanded Gentiles to keep the sabbath. It is a sign and a covenant made with the nation of Israel.

2. Ex 20:7 did the command to not take God's name in vain get deleted/abolished/ended/cease-to-apply (use what you wish) as soon as the Carpenter from Nazareth paid tithe???

3. Do you ever wonder why it is that even those opposing the Sabbath in the quoted section above - do not join in such short sighted "solutions"?

Here we have our differences distilled down to 3 short questions to assist the reader of this thread.

Again, circumcision and sabbath according to moses law do not matter to salvation
1. Are we circumcised, do we need to become circumcised? in our hearts yes we do
Do we have a sabbath of rest left in Christ? Yes, but is not an earthly worldly Sabbath of a twenty four hour day.

Just, hoping get agreement on concerning Hebrews.

The sabbath rest spoke of in that passage is not speaking of the commandment in tables of stone. The people had been resting every 7th day for 40 years already

1. Here it is speaking of Joshua, just before he is to bring them into the land

Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

2 We also see those who died in the wilderness not entering rest. They would not go into the land, to inherit it.


Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) {They … : Gr. If they shall enter }
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

3 These are all in connection to inheriting the land and resting in their inheritance

Here follows what what Hebrews means concerning Joshua....

4 Not yet entered the rest.
De 12:9 For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the LORD your God giveth you.

5 The two tribes that inherited land on this side of the Jordon, cannot rest in their inheritance yet.
Jos 1:15 Until the LORD have given your brethren rest, as he hath given you, and they also have possessed the land which the LORD your God giveth them: then ye shall return unto the land of your possession, and enjoy it, which Moses the LORD’S servant gave you on this side Jordan toward the sunrising.

can we agree this is the rest spoken of in Hebrews?

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

Now the questions you are not answering with a direct yes or no.

1. 1 Cor 7:19 - did the Holy Spirit make a mistake to say "circumcision does not matter...what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" when in your view either they both matter or they both do not matter and there can be no such distinction between them?

Neither save us.

The question was not "are you saved by works|

The question you are not answering is 'did the Holy Spirit make a mistake" by making the distinction between the moral law of God "The Commandments of God" and ceremonial laws such as circumcision in 1 Cor 7:19 since you claim there is no such distinction in your posts.

Jesus told his disciples to go and teach the nations all he commanded them.

And in Matt 19 they report what Jesus commanded them (as well as in other parts of the Gospel accounts)

so then:

Matt 19:
if you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said,

• “You shall not commit murder; Ex 20
• You shall not commit adultery; Ex 20
• You shall not steal; Ex 20
• You shall not give false testimony; Ex 20
• 19 Honor your father and mother; Ex 20:12
• and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Lev 19:18)

And of course we could add Ex 20:7 "Do not take God's name in vain" as well as others dealing with our duty/obligation toward God

Apostolic teaching by Paul an apostle to the gentiles never commanded Gentiles to keep the sabbath.

Nor did he command them not to take God's name in nor did he say all of God's word is deleted except what he includes in a particular letter.

So back to the question at the top - did the Holy Spirit make a mistake - to note the distinction in 1 Cor 7:19 between ceremonial law such as circumcision and "The Commandments of God" -- or has all of Christianity - got that wrong in your personal POV?

 

[BobRyan]

No, I'm not interested in trying to get around any questions.

Good - how about the oft repeated question so far

Is it your claim that as soon as the Carpenter from Nazareth paid tithe then the Ex 20:7 commandment of God was deleted/ended/abolished???

Or are you sticking with your "cant be abolished until Earth passes away" response so far?? Because it looks like you flip flop between all-is-abolished and then "tithe not abolished until Earth passes away" answers, followed by all commandments abolished as soon as Carpenter pays tithe.

Your answers on that seem to reside all over the map so far.

 

[BobRyan]

Again, circumcision and sabbath according to moses law do not matter to salvation

Where does Moses say that?

Do you also argue that taking God's name in vain does not matter?

How about worship of false God's?

 

[BobRyan]

Now the questions you are not answering with a direct yes or no.

1. 1 Cor 7:19 - did the Holy Spirit make a mistake to say "circumcision does not matter...what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" when in your view either they both matter or they both do not matter and there can be no such distinction between them?

2. Ex 20:7 did the command to not take God's name in vain get deleted/abolished/ended/cease-to-apply (use what you wish) as soon as the Carpenter from Nazareth paid tithe???

3. Do you ever wonder why it is that even those opposing the Sabbath in the quoted section above - do not join in such short sighted "solutions"?

Here we have our differences distilled down to 3 short questions to assist the reader of this thread.

Neither save us. they are for a shadow, a pattern.
Jesus told his disciples to go and teach the nations all he commanded them. Apostolic teaching by Paul an apostle to the gentiles never commanded Gentiles to keep the sabbath. It is a sign and a covenant made with the nation of Israel.


Again, circumcision and sabbath according to moses law do not matter to salvation
1. Are we circumcised, do we need to become circumcised? in our hearts yes we do

Is it your view that when the Holy Spirit says in 1 Cor 7:19 "circumcision does not matter but what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" that He got something wrong there?

How about Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

How about 1 John 5:2-3 "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"?

Where Paul points out that in those commandments "Honor your father and mother" is the "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

 

[BobRyan]

It is a sin to take God's name in vain because it conflicts with the instruction to love others as Christ loved us

So you approve of one of God's Commandments then?
And you admit that it remains?

James 2 "to break one is to break them all"

which of God's commandments do you not end/delete as soon as the Carpenter from Nazareth pays tithe?

Why wouldn't "do not take God's name in vain" come under the Deut 6:4 greatest commandment "Love God with all your heart" as Christ said in Matt 22 of all the law and the prophets? Do you also not approve of Christ's teaching in Matt 22??

Why do you place it under what Christ calls the second greatest commandment "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 instead of the first which is Deut 6:4??? Did you also delete the first and greatest commandment in the Law of Moses even though it is the basis for all scripture according to Christ in Matt 22?? (All the Law and the Prophets)

 

[BobRyan]

Do we have a sabbath of rest left in Christ? Yes, but is not an earthly worldly Sabbath of a twenty four hour day.

Just, hoping get agreement on concerning Hebrews.

In Gen 2 God gives His own command for sanctifying the 7th day as opposed to "a worldly command".

In Ex 20:11 God points directly back to creation week in Gen 2:1-3 for His own Holy day.

In Is 58:13-14 God says to Honor "My Holy Day" not "a worldly holy day"
In Ex 20:10 God says it is "The Sabbath of the LORD" not "the holy day of the world"
In Is 66:23 God says that from "Sabbath to Sabbath" for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth - "Shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship".

God is not making a mistake and it would be nice to get to agreement on that point.

BTW Heb 4 says "There REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God" as it quotes DAVID in the Psalms -- so it REMAINS as it was in David's day no matter how you choose to apply symbolism in Heb 4

 

[BobRyan]

the entire law was fulfilled when
Heaven and Earth passed away,

So then what planet do you live on now?

What planet "will pass away" in the future according to 2 Peter 3 - if the one you used to be on -- already passed away? Is Peter predicting that the planet you are on now is also going to pass away in 2 Peter 3?

 

[ralliann]

In Gen 2 God gives His own command for sanctifying the 7th day as opposed to "a worldly command".

In Ex 20:11 God points directly back to creation week in Gen 2:1-3 for His own Holy day.

In Is 58:13-14 God says to Honor "My Holy Day" not "a worldly holy day"
In Ex 20:10 God says it is "The Sabbath of the LORD" not "the holy day of the world"
In Is 66:23 God says that from "Sabbath to Sabbath" for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth - "Shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship".

God is not making a mistake and it would be nice to get to agreement on that point.

BTW Heb 4 says "There REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God" as it quotes DAVID in the Psalms -- so it REMAINS as it was in David's day no matter how you choose to apply symbolism in Heb 4

Yes, that was my point We are circumcised, we also have another sabbath rest in Christ. Not like the old. We are in a new covenant and we look to our rest of eternal inheritance.

 

[Bob S]

SB Wrote:

Exodus 31:18 Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Does not say anything about an added law. The Sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments personally written by God. Exodus 31:18, Exodus 32:16 Exodus 20 Breaking the Sabbath commandment is no different than breaking any of God’s commandments. James 2:10-12

As you can plainly see the sign was not with any other nation or people, just Israel. Why some conjecture otherwise is not scriptural.

SB wrote:

It’s surprising to me to be honest why there is so much resisitence on God’s holy Sabbath day considering the blessings you receive when you keep God’s Sabbath commanemnt. A special sign between you and God. Who wouldn’t want the Lord being delighted in us when we keep the Sabbath and He blesses us. Isaiah 58:13-14 An appointment with God every Sabbath day to spend time in His spiritual rest so He can bless us through His sanctifying power Ezekiel 20:12 becuase we cannot sanctify ourselves, we do so through the Truth of God’s Word John 17:17.

Since there is no command to observe it in the New Testament and in the old one it was a sign between God and only one nation, Israel, I am surprised why some resist the real truth and continue to buck the tide. It is not a special sign between me and God. Our Creator asks all mankind to remember Him by His shed blood and His torn body given that we all may have eternal life. We do this by partaking in Communion.

I belonged to the SDA church for almost 40 years. I know a lot about the church structure. I know so much that I thank my Savior Jesus Christ that He led me out of their clutch. Way long before I left, I stopped proselytizing because I could not in good faith subject anyone to some of the 27 beliefs. Sabbath, at that time, was not one, but after much study on the old and new covenants it became very clear that God never intended for Gentile nations to espouse the rituals He gave His special people, Israel.

 

[Leaf473]

Good - how about the oft repeated question so far

Is it your claim that as soon as the Carpenter from Nazareth paid tithe then the Ex 20:7 commandment of God was deleted/ended/abolished???

No, that is not my claim.

Or are you sticking with your "cant be abolished until Earth passes away" response so far??

That's a false dichotomy, there's at least one more option.

What I'm sticking with is:
...until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.

Because it looks like you flip flop between all-is-abolished and then "tithe not abolished until Earth passes away" answers...

That's because I'm attempting to follow your train of thought in the sense of: if we agree that a is true and b is true, then c must follow.

...followed by all commandments abolished as soon as Carpenter pays tithe.

I don't think I've ever said that, have I?

I do think that Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets. That includes fulfilling the tithing laws.

I don't think he fulfilled them when he paid tithes, it was when he completed his mission of the cross, resurrection, and sending the Holy Spirit.

Your answers on that seem to reside all over the map so far.

Yes, again, if we agree on this and that, then this third thing follows, and so on.

I'm glad to talk more, but I don't want this post to get too long.

Peace be with you!

 

[All Becomes New]

Romans 8:1–4 CSB17
“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do since it was weakened by the flesh, God did. He condemned sin in the flesh by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh as a sin offering, in order that the law’s requirement would be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”

Christ fulfilled the Torah (and more than that as he lived a perfect life; the law doesn't save anyone) so we can live by the Spirit of Christ, which is love.

There are more commands in the New Testament than in the Torah. Yet, they are all under the umbrella of love. Everything hangs on love. If you can figure out how to love God and love your neighbor perfectly, let me know, and we can all start being idle and wait for Christ to come.