The law, the commandments, and Christians.

[fhansen]

Here is the list of things again...

So, we are on the same page that all these things are wholey dependent on Christ Jesus residing in our hearts? "Wholely dependent" means each one of these things is true for us if Jesus lives in us, and none of these things are true for us if He does not live in us.

If we're on the same page on these items, then we can move forward to the question of what may drive Christ out of our hearts.

Yes, we are on the same page.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

The questions beg to be honestly asked, and answered:
1) Do believers still continue to sin ?

yes

2) Can a believer sin wantonly, egregiously, persistently and still expect to make it to heaven?

This question is built on a false premise. The absurdity of the premise is reveald in the converse: "Can a believer make it to heaven by avoiding wanton, egregious, and persistent sins?"

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Yes, we are on the same page.

OK good. More to come later.

 

[fhansen]

yes

This question is built on a false premise. The absurdity of the premise is reveald in the converse: "Can a believer make it to heaven by avoiding wanton, egregious, and persistent sins?"

How is that converse absurd, when Scripture tells us that’s exactly what a believer must do? You’re only avoiding the question here. The honest and logical answer is unavoidable, BTW.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

How is that converse absurd, when Scripture tells us that’s exactly what a believer must do? You’re only avoiding the question here. The honest and logical answer is unavoidable, BTW.

Ok, tell me how a person who commits (let's say) three little sins a day (all internal, unseen by any other person) qualifies as not being a habitual sinner.

 

[fhansen]

Ok, tell me how a person who commits (let's say) three little sins a day (all internal, unseen by any other person) qualifies as not being a habitual sinner.

IDK, why don't you go ahead and answer that question?. Either way, you're still not addressing the question. Should a believer persistently engaging in grave ugly sin expect to enter heaven? And will that believer nonetheless engage in lighter sins?

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[The Liturgist]

If there is an I, it is "I am a new creation in Christ", not a justification for pride. I think you're reading too much into a concession to my viewpoint, it's just a way of saying that there isn't room for pride.

Ah, this is a valid objection, and to be clear, the I in Christ I was speaking of is from His perspective, not from ours, except insofar as what you said, that we are recreated in Christ, and that He does call us by name. Rather, in saying there is an I in Christ, I was seeking to point to the unity and individuality of His personhood within the Holy and Undivided Trinity, for like His unoriginate Father who begat Him before all ages, and the Holy Spirit, our comforter and Paraclete, who is everywhere present and fills all things, who eternally proceeds from the Father, Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, by whom all things were made, who is our Advocate and who after the resurrection will also stand in judgement over all as Pantocrator (thus, Him being our advocate is rather reassuring) is a distinct person, with a distinct hypostasis in which He unites our created human nature with the uncreated divine nature, the essence of the unoriginate Father that is shared with His uncreated, coequal and coeternal Son and Holy Spirit, uniting the three divine persons as One God, an eternal union of perfect love that is the template for our human families and relations, or as we would say in my church, we are called to make our relationships with our family, with the members of our church, and with mankind as a whole an icon of the Trinity, recreating the love between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost in the love between ourselves and our spouse, all our children, all our brethren and all our neighbors. Such love requires absolute humility and the complete rejection of pride, because it requires us to be willing, as Christ was for us, to love our neighbor as ourselves, to the point of being willing to die for him.

Very few people, if any at all, are able to get to such a state of holiness in this life, but by striving to get there as if running a race, as St. Paul put it, we can give much love to many, and with our God who is infinitely merciful and infinitely loving, that counts for a lot. But the race is something we must be willing to try to compete in: St. Silouan the Athonite, an Orthodox monastic, warned that there are two thoughts from which every Christian must flee, the first one being ”I am saintly”, and the second one being “My sins are so great I cannot be saved.” In the first case, we fall into a spiritual delusion (which Slavic Christians call Prelest, which more than being a word, refers to an entire concept within Orthodox theology whereby we can be deceived; the word prelest is not intended to be used in a judgemental or forensic manner, but rather someone in a state of prelest is to be prayed for, because they are being successfully deceived, which is dangerous to them and to this around them).

Among the Desert Fathers and Mothers, who were the early ascetic Christian hermits and proto-monastics who lived a life of prayer in places such as Scetis and the Thebaid following the example of St. Anthony the Great, there were examples of men being deceived by demons, exploiting their pride, into believing they had already attained the fullness of divine glory and were to be born aloft to Heaven by waiting angels as was Elijah. At least one fell to his death, and another was restrained by one of his monastic brethren before going over the edge.

Despair is equally dangerous, because if we believe we have no hope of salvation, we will stop running what St. Paul describes as the race, and defeated, we will lapse into nihilistic despair and likely wind up embracing a heresy or a false religion. My considered opinion is that a great many former Christians who now practice occult religions such as Wicca or other even more dangerous and seductive religions such as Buddhism and certain forms of Hinduism, and various materialist religions such as Marxist-Leninism or Hedonist Objectivism, do so on the basis of having felt hopelessness at the prospect of their salvation, which is particularly a risk in extremely legalistic churches, but is also a risk even in Reformed churches, where the idea that one could be a reprobate without realizing it exists, or in churches whose soteriological model does not promote continued thanksgiving and encourage seeking the aid of God the Holy Spirit in resisting temptation and struggling against sin, because here, the paradigm loops over on itself and we go from despairing of our salvation to believing we have become saintly, and thus need to repent no longer, and thus fall into the trap of pride once more.

Thus, in summary, allow me to quote St. Paul in his Epistle to the Colossians:

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”

 

[The Liturgist]

Not I but Christ. For we are or we are dead but alive, yet not us but Christ Lives in us, and the Life we now live in the flesh, we live by the faith of the Son of God who gave Himself for us.

He supplies the Spirit and works power in us through the hearing of this Faith of Christ. Even as Abraham believed by the God and it added up unto righteousness. Even so we who are out of the hearing of this faith of Christ are sons of God, living by the faith of Christ.

Because we who have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor freeman, male nor female, Scott or Liturgist. We are all one in Christ having been baptized into Christ, The circumcision made without hands, in the putting off the body of sin, the flesh. All we are and our affections and lusts. Having cleansed our Conscience, who we are from dead works, acts that cause death; sin, so we can serve the Living God. Risen with Him through the Faith and operation of God. Yet not us, but Christ Jesus and the life we now live in the flesh we live by the hearing, the listening to the faith of Christ. Walking by this, His Spirit and not by the flesh, who we were. That the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled in us, being made free from sin, and free we are indeed, we became the servants of righteousness.

Knowing that a man is not justified out of the works of the law, IF NOT out of the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed INTO Jesus Christ, that we might be justified through the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. For the Just shall live out of this faith. This faith that establishes the Law. For the word is in our heart and mouth, that is the faith in which we preach. And that believes unto righteousness.

In quoting that verse of St. Paul, it becomes evident you misunderstood what I meant in objecting to your remark - my point was the distinct person of Christ, not a rejection of the need to allow the old man to be crucified with Christ so the new man might live unto Him. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Abraham1st]

Without charity, to have all knowledge we are nothing, charity edifies, and knowledge puffs up, we are to teach no other doctrine, or things that raise questions, rather than GODLY EDIFYING, which is in FAITH.

The law it is testified is NOT MADE FOR A RIGHTEOUS MAN, all doctrine to try to show it is, is not edification, and is instead the opposite, it is the SAME as those of the LAW as told below, disobedience, UNGODLY, sinners, unholy, for liars, all that is AGAINST SOUND DOCTRINE.

CHARITY, OUT OF A PURE HEART, OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE, OF FAITH UNFEIGNED.

The thread, law commandment and Christians, is answered, as are all such threads on this Christian forum.

Those who speak of the law show what they do and follow, and that they don't do as, nor follow Jesus Christ, or would repent and be ashamed.




1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

1Timothy 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
5 Now the end of the commandment is CHARITY OUT OF A PURE HEART, and of a GOOD CONSCIENCE, and of FAITH UNFEIGNED:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

 

[HIM]

In quoting that verse of St. Paul, it becomes evident you misunderstood what I meant in objecting to your remark - my point was the distinct person of Christ, not a rejection of the need to allow the old man to be crucified with Christ so the new man might live unto Him. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Posturing is how your post was took.

Given that this is the third admonition , I'm going to drop this discussion after this post. However, repetition of an unsound hermeneutic doesn't make it work. Yes, we are to teach and admonish one another.

Saying so doesn't make it so and is subjective at best.

On the other hand, this interpretation expressed here has been applied to an online forum debate, to a mere difference of opinion, and stated that a believer in Christ must participate in an argument or else be in sin

We have a responsibility to one another. By not sharing we leave one in their sin. False teaching is a sin, probably the most done one on the planet and must be met with the truth. This is a public forum where many see. By engaging we open ourselves up to a lot of responsibility which might not be meant for us to take but is ours nonetheless because of our actions.

The issue I think that has escaped your notice is, if one is not going to engage with what needs to be known, why engage at all. Why make a point to say anything or say a little something and then say I don't wish to engage when a point is made which is contrary to what you believe is true?

One of many reasons I can postulate in respect to this is, they can't give an answer. And if that was the case in this instance to which instigated this conversation then the one who ended the conversation needs to question said belief.

 

[HIM]

The law it is testified is NOT MADE FOR A RIGHTEOUS MAN,

To keep this discussion focused, since you are no longer using Romans 6-8 as stated in your earlier post we were discussing, but have changed your chapters to Romans 9-11.

Which part Romans 9-11 says we gentiles in the Body of Christ can now claim the promises and covenants that belong to Israel?

Remember what I said about Romans 9:4?

Guoyjng all that was posted to you shows how all is connected and applies to all. You have yet to actually answer the points made. Posting Romans 9:4 does not answer the points shared with you in respect to the premise context of that very letter to which you took the verse out of. Please go back and answer the points, thank you.

Meanwhile this to Abraham1st applies to you as well.


He that does righteousness is righteous EVEN AS He is righteous. The Word manifested in the flesh, our flesh. Christ in you the hope of glory.

Do we still sin? Then be not deceived, the Law is for sinners. For by the Law is the knowledge of sin. The Righteous, the Just live out of Faith, This Faith establishes the Law. This Faith is a gift from God. For it is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. His Word, His Law is in our hearts and in our mouths through His Spirit that we do it. That is the word of faith in which we preach. For in Him we are to be living, moving and have our being. If not, then we are not all that He would have us be. The New Covenant ministers ministering, letters with the engrafted word in our hearts. Written by the Spirit of the Living God. Not on tables of stone, or parchment but the fleshly tables of the heart by His Spirit. A new creature of His kind, begotten by the Word of truth. Not that our sufficiency is in of ourselves. It is of God. Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

IDK, why don't you go ahead and answer that question? Either way, you're still not addressing the question. Should a believer persistently engaging in grave ugly sin expect to enter heaven? And will that believer nonetheless engage in lighter sins?

Are we talking about unrepentant serial killers? I suppose that God could have mercy on them if they turned to Christ. Jesus said every sin except "blasphemy against the Spirit" can be forgiven (Mt 12:31).

9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Lk 18:9–14)​

This reminds me of a kind of relativistic righteousness -- thinking we are right with God because our sins are smaller, less ugly, and more infrequent than other people's sins. It's only when we admit that we are sinners in desperate need of God's forgiveness that we don't point our fingers at other people and say, "Thank You that I'm not like these extortioners and adulterers".

The fact is, all our sins count against us. Without Jesus sacrificing Himself for all our sins, none of us could be saved. And we're not saved because we are good partners with God. We are saved because Jesus loved us enough to pay the price for all our sins.

And there is a reason sin-avoidance is not an effective strategy for maintaining eternal life. You like to quote Romans 2:13 -- "for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified" (Ro 2:13). But you don't put it with the conclusion of the topic:

For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.​

10 As it is written:​

​

“There is none righteous, no, not one;​

11 There is none who understands;​

There is none who seeks after God.​

12 They have all turned aside;​

They have together become unprofitable;​

There is none who does good, no, not one.”​

13 “Their throat is an open tomb;​

With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;​

“The poison of asps is under their lips”;​

14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”​

15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;​

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;​

17 And the way of peace they have not known.”​

18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”​

​

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Ro 3:9–20)​

It is not possible for sin-avoidance to make a person right with God because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Ro 3:23). This is the best place to keep one's mind.

 

[Guojing]

Guoyjng all that was posted to you shows how all is connected and applies to all. You have yet to actually answer the points made. Posting Romans 9:4 does not answer the points shared with you in respect to the premise context of that very letter to which you took the verse out of. Please go back and answer the points, thank you.

You have not even established your point that we the Body of Christ can now take the covenants and promises of Israel, and Paul in Romans 9:4 clearly said that all those BELONG to Israel.

If you are no longer making that point, we can move on.

 

[Abraham1st]

Guoyjng all that was posted to you shows how all is connected and applies to all. You have yet to actually answer the points made. Posting Romans 9:4 does not answer the points shared with you in respect to the premise context of that very letter to which you took the verse out of. Please go back and answer the points, thank you.

Meanwhile this to Abraham1st applies to you as well.


He that does righteousness is righteous EVEN AS He is righteous. The Word manifested in the flesh, our flesh. Christ in you the hope of glory.

Do we still sin? Then be not deceived, the Law is for sinners. For by the Law is the knowledge of sin. The Righteous, the Just live out of Faith, This Faith establishes the Law. This Faith is a gift from God. For it is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. His Word, His Law is in our hearts and in our mouths through His Spirit that we do it. That is the word of faith in which we preach. For in Him we are to be living, moving and have our being. If not, then we are not all that He would have us be. The New Covenant ministers ministering, letters with the engrafted word in our hearts. Written by the Spirit of the Living God. Not on tables of stone, or parchment but the fleshly tables of the heart by His Spirit. A new creature of His kind, begotten by the Word of truth. Not that our sufficiency is in of ourselves. It is of God. Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The law that is established is this one....


Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.

1 Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.



Inheritance is not of the law, the law served because of transgressions, it serves no more, as it was UNTIL THE SEED SHOULD COME. ( the promise was made to the seed, to Christ and the antichrist spirit does not confess but denies that Christ, the seed has come in the flesh.)



Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.




Any righteousness which is of the law is described by Moses, you do those things and you live by them, BUT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHCH IS OF FAITH. (THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH.) speaks this way, the WORD OF FAITH WHICH WE PREACH, that if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be SAVED. ( the antichrist dos not confess as i said and also we see does not believe.



Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Romans 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[Abraham1st]

You have not even established your point that we the Body of Christ can now take the covenants and promises of Israel, and Paul in Romans 9:4 clearly said that all those BELONG to Israel.

If you are no longer making that point, we can move on.

The promise was made to the seed, that's Christ.




Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, WHICH IS CHRIST.

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed SHOULD COME to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Galatians 3:29 And IF YE BE CHRIST'S, then are ye Abraham's seed, and HEIRS ACCORDING to the promise.





Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the HEIR OF THE WORLD, was not to Abraham, or TO HIS SEED, through the law, but THROUGH THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH.

Romans 4:16 Therefore IT IS OF FAITH, that it MIGHT BE BY GRACE; to THE END THE PROMISE MIGHT BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED; not to that only which is of the law, but TO THAT ALSO WHICH IS OF THE FAITH of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.




Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:





It is of faith that it might be of grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed, NOT TO THAT ONLY WHICH IS OF THE LAW. Romans 4:16 (who are Israelites, to whom pertain the covenants, and the giving of law, and the service of God, and the promises. Romans 9:4-5.)




Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[Guojing]

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Try reading Romans 9:1-3 first, before you come to verse 4.

Romans 9-11 has a different group being addressed, compared to Romans 4. You cannot just jump from one group to the other.

 

[Abraham1st]

Try reading Romans 9:1-3 first, before you come to verse 4.

Romans 9-11 has a different group being addressed, compared to Romans 4. You cannot just jump from one group to the other.

The promise is to Christ, Christ confirmed them, and fulfilled them. Who else was around to confirm and fulfil the promises.

So Israel is the children of the promise, to be counted of the seed, so to was the promises given, to the seed, Christ and those of Christ, and the purpose of God sands according to election, NOT OF WORKS, not of Israel, not of the law, but of CHRIST WHO CALLS.



Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth