Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[SabbathBlessings]

No one is perfect except Christ.

Sanctification is not merely by reading the Bible. It is based on exercising loving God and others and being progressively conformed to the image of Christ. Paul says, imitate me as I imitate Christ. But Paul does not only do what the Law says. You need the spirit for that.

So it seems like what you're saying is that we should stop trying to be perfect and emulate Jesus because it's too hard? I have yet to find this in scripture. Jesus overcame temptation Hebrews 4:15 just like we can through Christ. Philippians 4:13 It's not Christ who thinks we can't overcome sin or keep the commandments, its the "other spirit" Revelation 12:17, 1 John 3:8. The God I believe in is greater at keeping us from sin (breaking God's law) than the devil is at trying to keep us in sin. If we stumble and fall we have Jesus who is our High Priest and Mediator and we can go directly to Him when we repent (change of heart) and turn from sin and walk with Him in obedience to His commandments, which He gives us His Spirit to help us. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32

God would not ask us to keep something without giving us the power to do so. That where the Holy Spirit comes in. Those who wish to fully surrender themselves to God wants to obey Him and can through the Spirit. John 14:15-18 Acts 5:32. Walking in the Spirit is not in enmity with God's law, but the those who do not walk in the Spirit do not keep God's law or can they. Romans 8:7

Tell me, if you keep the Law, do you also emphasize prophecy?

1 Corinthians 14:1 CSB17
“Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy.”

Do I believe in the Spirit of Prophecy? Yes. Revelation 19:10

 

[Leaf473]

Paul never says "do not Take God's name in vain" comes under Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor"

Right! He says that Love your neighbor as yourself fulfills the entire law. The entire law, of course, includes the greatest commandment, as well as all the rest.

Jesus said the GREATEST commandment is "Love God with all your heart" Matt 22 and the SECOND one is "Love your neighbor" Lev 19:18
Then in Matt 19 Jesus quotes the same list as Paul in Rom 13 -- just the commands about loving your neighbor from Lev 19:18.

details matter.

Jesus is greater than Paul
Love God with all your heart Deut 6:4 is greater than Lev 19:18 according to Jesus.

Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ, meaning he's Christ's representative. I agree with both Jesus and Paul. Jesus taught under the old covenant, Paul taught under the new.

But you have free will - you don't need to agree with Jesus' point if you do not wish to - in your affirmation of the Law of Moses and Lev 19:18

I exercise my free will to agree with both Jesus and Paul.

Peace be with you!

 

[Leaf473]

Jesus is greater than Paul
Love God with all your heart Deut 6:4 is greater than Lev 19:18 according to Jesus.

I think it's wrong to try to pit Jesus against Paul.

We would end up doing this:
...each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” “I follow Apollos,” “I follow Cephas,” and, “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul?
1 Corinthians 1

We can understand Jesus's teachings in light of Paul, and vice versa. Keeping in mind that Jesus's cross and Resurrection take place between the two.

We also want to keep in mind that Jesus had more things to say. I believe he said them through his apostles, including Paul.

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus did not teach us to obey God's commandments which He kept His whole life as our example to follow John 15:10, 2 John 2:6 so the moment He Sacrificed Himself we can sin freely. There would be no need for Jesus to Sacrifice Himself if sin was okay. Jesus came to save us from sin Matthew 1:21 not in them. There will never be a time when we can freely sin and break God's commandments as we are told those who do there remains no more sacrifice for them. Hebrews 10:26-30

Jesus promised at His Second Coming that those who do not do the will of the Father in Heaven and practice lawlessness (without law) will not be there. Matthew 7:21-23

and in contrast...

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him

God loves us so much He gives us these warnings so we can change our path before its too late. If one does not want to keep the commandments of God, there is a love to God issue. If we earnestly pray to God and ask to change our heart from stone to flesh, we can change our thinking through the power of Jesus Christ. For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3
Psalms 40: 8I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.”

 

[All Becomes New]

We have the most well read modern books of prophetic statements on the planet at present in the form of "The Great Controversy" - and you?

Our denomination has 5 distinctive teachings

1. Spirit of prophecy
2. State of the dead
3. Sanctuary of God in heaven
4. Second Coming of Christ
5. Sabbath at the end of time

I was reading about this on Wikipedia. I find it fascinating. I'd say more, but I can't. But suffice it to say, I am also writing a book.

 

[All Becomes New]

So it seems like what you're saying is that we should stop trying to be perfect and emulate Jesus because it's too hard?

Not at all. We are not to sin so grace can abound. But it is not the letter of the Law we need to follow, but, much more importantly, that our heart is in the right place. What do you do where the Law says nothing, for example?

 

[Leaf473]

is deleting the Law of God your way of affirming it in the case of "Do not take God's name in vain"???

No, I do not delete any of the laws of God.

But we both agree that at least some parts of the law have passed away.

Philippians 4
Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

 

[BobRyan]

But suffice it to say, I am also writing a book.

good luck with that

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Not at all. We are not to sin so grace can abound. But it is not the letter of the Law we need to follow, but, much more importantly, that our heart is in the right place. What do you do where the Law says nothing, for example?

Do you think God's Holy Spirit is in conflict with God's law? If we are walking in the Spirit we are keeping God's law, not breaking it. Romans 8:1-9

Jesus gave us an example of this right from the Ten Commandments. Matthew 5:19-30. Murder begins in the heart. What Jesus wants is to change us from the inside out. When we change our thoughts from anger and contempt for our neighbor to compassion and kindness- thou shalt not murder will automatically be kept. This is what it means to walk in the Spirit- it is greater than the letter. The law magnified which is what Jesus came to do. Isaiah 42:21 If breaking the letter, we are not in the Spirit and it is a good way to test ourselves. The commandments are like a mirror, so we can see our sin and know what not to do. 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7

 

[Leaf473]

So then what planet do you live on now?

What planet "will pass away" in the future according to 2 Peter 3 - if the one you used to be on -- already passed away? Is Peter predicting that the planet you are on now is also going to pass away in 2 Peter 3?


You may wish to read more of the Bible - specifically the text I quoted that you claim to be responding to. (although you did say at one time you don't actually read the posts you respond to ...so there is that)

But for the unbiased objective readers - we have this.

2 Peter 3.
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be discovered.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

Peter does not say that the Earth he knew about in Matt 5 at Christ's teaching had passed away.

Rev 21 John (who also heard the teaching of Christ) says the earth passes away after the 1000 years in Rev 21. (another text you will need to avoid if not liking what it says).

========================

But since in your case - you claim your earth and your air are now gone in some symbolic way - that means you think the command to not take God's name in vain is now gone -- because the Carpenter from Nazareth paid tithe one day. That has to be a pretty consistent system of speculation you have patched together. In any case you have free will - you can believe as you wish. (seems like all the discussions between you and me eventually end up that way).

Reminds me of Eph 4 statement about being tossed about by every wind of doctrine. Interesting text - you might want to take a look at it.

Have a nice day.

You're responding to a lot of things as though I said them, things that I didn't say.

The ball is in your court, so to speak. We both agree that at least some parts of the law have passed away.

Do you believe that heaven and earth passed away or that all things have been accomplished? Or both?

Peace be with you!

 

[BobRyan]

But we both agree that at least some parts of the law have passed away.

But I rely on scripture for that - you don't.
scripture actually points to animal sacrifice and offerings ending at the cross Heb 10:4-12

But no text points to 'do not take God's name in vain" ending because air is gone and the planet has been destroyed. You seem to be wayy out on a limb at that point.

 

[BobRyan]

You're responding to a lot of things as though I said them, things that I didn't say.

The ball is in your court, so to speak. We both agree that at least some parts of the law have passed away.

Do you believe that heaven and earth passed away

No -- as both Peter and John affirm - earth and heaven are still here - and anyone who looks out of their window can see it.

You keep saying thing that don't make sense -- and then when responded to - claim those quotes are not from you.. very odd.

for example this sequence

the entire law was fulfilled when
Heaven and Earth passed away,

So then what planet do you live on now?

What planet "will pass away" in the future according to 2 Peter 3 - if the one you used to be on -- already passed away? Is Peter predicting that the planet you are on now is also going to pass away in 2 Peter 3?

You may wish to deal with the whole sentence:
Myself, I think Heaven and Earth passing away is metaphorical, an idiom.

You may wish to read more of the Bible - specifically the text I quoted that you claim to be responding to. (although you did say at one time you don't actually read the posts you respond to ...so there is that)

But for the unbiased objective readers - we have this.

2 Peter 3.
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be discovered.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

Peter does not say that the Earth he knew about in Matt 5 at Christ's teaching had passed away.

Rev 21 John (who also heard the teaching of Christ) says the earth passes away after the 1000 years in Rev 21. (another text you will need to avoid if not liking what it says).

Leaf473 said:
You're responding to a lot of things as though I said them, things that I didn't say.

hint: point to an actual detail in that post you are responding to - that makes your case for that statement.

 

[All Becomes New]

But I rely on scripture for that - you don't.
scripture actually points to animal sacrifice and offerings ending at the cross Heb 10:4-12

But no text points to 'do not take God's name in vain" ending because air is gone and the planet has been destroyed. You seem to be wayy out on a limb at that point.

My understanding of this, which I will also tell @SabbathBlessings, is that if the same commandment is not in the NT then we do not need to follow them. There are many Laws in the Torah which are meant to separate the nation of Israel from the surrounding nations (which they largely did not do. See King Josiah for details).

In any case, I had no idea what SDA was based on. I used to just think you guys were just a bunch of legalistic folks, but I have a different perspective now.

 

[BobRyan]

Not at all. We are not to sin so grace can abound. But it is not the letter of the Law we need to follow, but, much more importantly, that our heart is in the right place. What do you do where the Law says nothing, for example?

"do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 -- show us how you do not follow the letter of that law

 

[All Becomes New]

"do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 -- show us how you do not follow the letter of that law

How?

 

[BobRyan]

My understanding of this, which I will also tell @SabbathBlessings, is that if the same commandment is not in the NT then we do not need to follow them.

"do not take God's name in vain" is not in the NT. Show us how you do not follow that law.

by contrast - in the NT the Sabbath commandment is quote from in both Heb 4 and in Rev 14:7

(Hence my signature line)

In the NT Acts 18:4 we have gospel preaching to believing gentiles and Jews "every Sabbath"

There are many Laws in the Torah which are meant to separate the nation of Israel from the surrounding nations

True - but Sabbath is not one of them as my signature line shows -- even Voddie Baucham admits to this.

I had no idea what SDA was based on. I used to just think you guys were just a bunch of legalistic folks, but I have a different perspective now.

Well we like answering questions - that is for sure.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

How do you make sacrifices with no temple?

The veil was torn on the earthy temple, meaning there is no more earthy temple. God resides in His Heavenly Temple Hebrews 9:11, Hebrews 9:24 and our bodies are a temple and dwelling place for the Holy Spirit1 Corinthians 6:19 which is why we must keep them clean- spiritually and psychically.

The earthy sanctuary was a miniature of God's heavenly Sanctuary. Everything in the Temple is very symbolic and what is needed for salvation. The correlation to the sanctuary in Revelation and Daniel is really fascinating once you study it and the sanctuary language is all throughout the book of Revelation. I can point you to a really good bible study on it if interested,

 

[BobRyan]

Not at all. We are not to sin so grace can abound. But it is not the letter of the Law we need to follow, but, much more importantly, that our heart is in the right place. What do you do where the Law says nothing, for example?

"do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 -- show us how you do not follow the letter of that law

How?

you said you don't follow the letter of the law - so I am giving you a case in point to show how you do not follow Ex 20:7

IN Matt 5 Christ shows how following the spirit of the law NOT ONLY fulfills the letter of the law but also its full intent in spirit. It is MORE than -- not "instead of"

Jesus never accuses the Jews of perfectly following the letter of the law or the letter-and-the-spirit of the law.

Rather He accuses them of flat out law breaking for example in Mark 7:6-13 just as Paul accuses them of outright law breaking in Romans 2.

Neither Christ nor Paul says "they have perfect conformity to the letter of the law of God"

 

[All Becomes New]

"do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 -- show us how you do not follow the letter of that law

you said you don't follow the letter of the law - so I am giving you a case in point to show how you do not follow Ex 20:7

Christ amplifies this commandment by saying you will be judged for every careless word you speak. Everyone says careless words, right?

 

[BobRyan]

Christ amplifies this commandment by saying you will be judged for every careless word you speak. Everyone says careless words, right?

If you are willing to include such a loose non-quote of the commandment as "the commandment quoted in the NT" then Sabbath is quoted all over the NT as "Love God with all your heart" Matt 22 and "if you Love Me keep My Commandment" John 14:15. Notice that "Love Me and keep My commandments" is also in the TEN.,

Heb 4 "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" in Heb 4 only works if the Sabbath was not deleted because then it can be a symbol of that which remains in other spiritual matters as well. And in Heb 4 - it remains as it was in Psalms at the time of David - and how was that? What form was it? Literal or symbolic in David's day? It was literal and could also be thought of as rest in Christ but in no wise deleted/ended nor did OT saints think they should stop keeping Sabbath as soon as they accepted the doctrine on the Messiah.

But NT writers do not say "there remains a passover sacrifice to be made" in 1 Cor 5 - since Passover sacrifice does not remain. Rather "Christ our passover HAS BEEN sacrificed" it is past tense, done, not current and continuing because the symbolic event is completed and serves as a good symbol for something done/completed/ended.

James 2 says to break one is to break them all -- the unit is cemented together in stone by James' statement. As my signature line notes - this is not just an SDA observation.

Is 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

No wonder in the NT we have Acts 18:4 with gospel preaching to believing gentiles and Jews "every Sabbath"

No wonder in Acts 13 we have believing gentiles asking for MORE Gospel preaching to be given to them "on the next Sabbath" at which point they invite practically the entire town to come and hear it.

Now let's be honest, that would have worked MUCH better for the non-Sabbath folks had it said "more gospel preaching given to them on the following week-day-1 at which point they invited practically the whole town". There is an elephant in the non-Sabbbath living room if ever there was one!