Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[SabbathBlessings]

Responding to post #56 from here
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ons-teaching-on-origins.8265337/post-77058507

Not abolished, fulfilled. I believe that fits beautifully with Hebrews 10 and Matthew 7.

Peace be with you

The sacrificial laws that you are quoting from Hebrews 10 Colossians 2:14-17 is fulfilled in Christ. Nothing to do with the commandments of God that are eternal.

 

[BobRyan]

Let’s discuss the commandment with a promise (Ephesians 6:2), honor your father and mother (Exodus 20:12).

ok -

Eph 6:1-2
1. Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 'Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), 3 so that it may turn out well for you, and that you may live long on the earth.

That is a direct quote of Ex 20:12 which is most certainly about actual children, actual parents, actual teaching for children to honor/obey parents.

That is a problem for those arguing that all of God's Laws end at the cross since the argument in Eph 6 is from that commandment -- not against it - just as we see James doing in James 2.

In OT, it was quite clear that father and mother refer to our biological parents.

Agreed. And the parents in this case are very specifically the parents of those children who are obligated to obey their parents.

Jesus, however, in NT, said otherwise.

Luke 8​

19Then Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see Him, but they were unable to reach Him because of the crowd. 20He was told, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see You.” 21But He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear the word of God and carry it out.”​

That is bending the point in Eph 6 in such an extreme way that it would mean that Jesus was suppose to obey everyone around him - as they were all His mother and father.

I don't think that idea gets very far.

 

[Leaf473]

The sacrificial laws that you are quoting from Hebrews 10 Colossians 2:14-17 is fulfilled in Christ. Nothing to do with the commandments of God that are eternal.

I believe the text just says the law:

Σκιὰν γὰρ ἔχων ὁ νόμος τῶν μελλόντων ἀγαθῶν

One can interpret that to mean only certain laws, yes.

I like how this translation puts it,
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming. It is not the real things themselves.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+10&version=NIRV

Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.
Proverbs 16

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I believe the text just says the law:

Σκιὰν γὰρ ἔχων ὁ νόμος τῶν μελλόντων ἀγαθῶν

One can interpret that to mean only certain laws, yes.

I like how this translation puts it,
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming. It is not the real things themselves.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+10&version=NIRV

Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.
Proverbs 16

I’m not the one you need to convince we can be lawless in the eyes of Jesus . Matthew 7:21-23. Here is the context to these passages if interested. The Sabbath commandment directly refutes Evolution's teaching on origins although we will probably just have to agree to disagree and it will get sorted out soon enough.

 

[Cornelius8L]

ok -

Eph 6:1-2
1. Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 'Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), 3 so that it may turn out well for you, and that you may live long on the earth.

That is a direct quote of Ex 20:12 which is most certainly about actual children, actual parents, actual teaching for children to honor/obey parents.

That is a problem for those arguing that all of God's Laws end at the cross since the argument in Eph 6 is from that commandment -- not against it - just as we see James doing in James 2.


Agreed. And the parents in this case are very specifically the parents of those children who are obligated to obey their parents.

That is bending the point in Eph 6 in such an extreme way that it would mean that Jesus was suppose to obey everyone around him - as they were all His mother and father.

I don't think that idea gets very far.

I think we need to read along with these:

Luke 14:26​

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My disciple.​

​

And​

​

Matt 19:29​

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for the sake of My name will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.​

​

And​

​

Matthew 10:37​

The one loving father or mother above Me is not worthy of Me, and the one loving son or daughter above Me is not worthy of Me​

So what happens if the father and mother do not hear the word of God and carry it out?

 

[BobRyan]

I think we need to read along with these:

Luke 14:26​

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My disciple.​

Which is not the gospel of "hate" as some might suppose. Rather it points specifically to "ones own family" who will oppose the Christian not wanting Christians to accept the Gospel.

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to turn a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a person’s enemies will be the members of his household.

37 “The one who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and the one who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And the one who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me

Leaving us with "real families" and real parents and a real "Honor father and mother" command in both Ex 20:12 and in Matt 19 and in Rom 13 and in Eph 6:1-2. Direct quotes where even the order and sequence is being affirmed in Eph 6 for the TEN.

So what happens if the father and mother do not hear the word of God and carry it out?

The question is - does it honor mother and father for the child to be righteous or to be wicked? In God's eyes a saintly child is an honor to his/her parents and a wicked child is a dishonor to parents. Even if the parents are wicked.

 

[Leaf473]

I’m not the one you need to convince we can be lawless in the eyes of Jesus . Matthew 7:21-23. Here is the context to these passages if interested. The Sabbath commandment directly refutes Evolution's teaching on origins although we will probably just have to agree to disagree and it will get sorted out soon enough.

Starting here,

I’m not the one you need to convince we can be lawless in the eyes of Jesus.

Well, it's a discussion forum, so you can present your views on a scripture passage, and I can present mine. And you can evaluate what I said, and I can evaluate what you said. And then others can join in, too.

Here is the context to these passages if interested.

One of the main themes of Hebrews is that Jesus is superior. He's superior to angels, Moses, and the law. That's the entire law, including the Ten commandments. That's all part of the context.

...we will probably just have to agree to disagree...

If at any point you wish to stop with the discussion, you can stop responding. I may continue posting, since there are other people here.

Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.
Proverbs 16

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Starting here,

Well, it's a discussion forum, so you can present your views on a scripture passage, and I can present mine. And you can evaluate what I said, and I can evaluate what you said. And then others can join in, too.


One of the main themes of Hebrews is that Jesus is superior. He's superior to angels, Moses, and the law. That's the entire law, including the Ten commandments. That's all part of the context.


If at any point you wish to stop with the discussion, you can stop responding. I may continue posting, since there are other people here.

Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.
Proverbs 16

Yes, I do realize how forums work, but thanks for sharing your viewpoint. To me it doesn't make a lot of sense to continue debating the same person on the same topic for many years and to expect a different outcome. At the end my opinion or your opinion doesn't really matter as we all will have to answer to Jesus one day soon on our decisions. Jesus never taught on lawlessness and said He did not come to destroy the law and putting an end to the law is the same thing so there are some obvious misunderstandings when you try to reconcile that with the rest of the scripture like Matthew 7:21-23, Revelation 14:12, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 22:14-15 1 John 2:3-6 and many others. Some laws were fulfilled in Jesus but not all which is why context is so important for those seeking Truth. Jesus said if you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15. You disagree and that's okay, we can agree to disagree, and this does get sorted out soon enough. You are free to continue discussing whatever you wish, Jesus told us to teach other the commandments Matthew 5:19 so that is my free as well. Take care and wish you well.

 

[Cornelius8L]

Which is not the gospel of "hate" as some might suppose. Rather it points specifically to "ones own family" who will oppose the Christian not wanting Christians to accept the Gospel.

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to turn a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a person’s enemies will be the members of his household.

37 “The one who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and the one who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And the one who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me

Leaving us with "real families" and real parents and a real "Honor father and mother" command in both Ex 20:12 and in Matt 19 and in Rom 13 and in Eph 6:1-2. Direct quotes where even the order and sequence is being affirmed in Eph 6 for the TEN.

The question is - does it honor mother and father for the child to be righteous or to be wicked? In God's eyes a saintly child is an honor to his/her parents and a wicked child is a dishonor to parents. Even if the parents are wicked.

First, you say “hate” points to the family(including parents) that opposes Gospel. Then, you say honor even wicked parents (which means those who hate the gospel in God’s eye). Doesn’t it sound contradicting?

 

[BobRyan]

First, you say “hate” points to the family(including parents) that opposes Gospel.

Indeed they are opposing Christians and so the Christian in Matt 10 is told not to cling to them and ignore Christ - but rather to take up the cross of persecution.

Then, you say honor even wicked parents

Indeed because being a righteous person is always doing honor to your parents.

(which means those who hate the gospel in God’s eye). Doesn’t it sound contradicting?

God pours out rain on the good and the bad. God offers the Gospel to the lost, the wicked ... in fact Christ died for the lost. The Apostle Paul was at one time one of those Christian-hating non-Christians that God loved and that needed a witnesses from a faithful Christian.

IT is impossible to argue that Paul's quote of Ex 20:12 in Eph 6:2, Rom 13 etc and Christ's quote of it in Matt 19 and James quote from the TEN in James 2 -- is their way of condemning the Commandments - as they affirm that the NT saints are accountable to them.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, I do realize how forums works, but thanks for sharing your viewpoint. To me it doesn't make a lot of sense to continue debating the same person on the same topic for many years and to expect a different outcome. At the end my opinion or your opinion doesn't really matter as we all will have to answer to Jesus one day soon on our decisions. Jesus never taught on lawlessness and said He did not come to destroy the law and putting an end to the law is the same thing so there are some obvious misunderstandings when you try to reconcile that with the rest of the scripture like Matthew 7:21-23, Revelation 14:12, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 22:14-15 1 John 2:3-6 and many others. Some laws were fulfilled in Jesus but not all which is why context is so important for those seeking Truth. Jesus said if you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15. You disagree and that's okay, we can agree to disagree, and this does get sorted out soon enough. You are free to continue discussing whatever you wish, Jesus told us to teach other the commandments Matthew 5:19 so that is my free as well. Take care and wish you well.

Lots of great points in your post there, I'll just touch on a few highlights this time around.

Jesus said if you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15. You disagree and that's okay...

No, I don't disagree with Jesus. But you and I disagree about which commandments Jesus is referring to.

Jesus told us to teach other the commandments Matthew 5:19...

Jesus is referring to the entire law there, isn't he?

It's the nuts and bolts where we differ.

Do you teach people this commandment?
And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying: 34 “When you have come into the land of Canaan, which I give you as a possession, and I put the [e]leprous plague in a house in the land of your possession, 35 and he who owns the house comes and tells the priest, saying, ‘It seems to me that there is some plague in the house,’ 36 then the priest shall command that they empty the house, before the priest goes into it to examine the plague, that all that is in the house may not be made unclean; and afterward the priest shall go in to examine the house. 37 And he shall examine the plague; and indeed if the plague is on the walls of the house with ingrained streaks, greenish or reddish, which appear to be [f]deep in the wall, 38 then the priest shall go out of the house, to the door of the house, and [g]shut up the house seven days.

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 14 - New King James Version

The Ritual for Cleansing Healed Lepers - Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “This shall be the law of the leper for the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought to the priest. And the priest shall go out of the camp, and the priest shall examine him; and indeed, if the leprosy is healed in...

www.biblegateway.com

For the law is good...

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Lots of great points in your post there, I'll just touch on a few highlights this time around.

No, I don't disagree with Jesus. But you and I disagree about which commandments Jesus is referring to.



Jesus is referring to the entire law there, isn't he?

It's the nuts and bolts where we differ.

Do you teach people this commandment?
And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying: 34 “When you have come into the land of Canaan, which I give you as a possession, and I put the [e]leprous plague in a house in the land of your possession, 35 and he who owns the house comes and tells the priest, saying, ‘It seems to me that there is some plague in the house,’ 36 then the priest shall command that they empty the house, before the priest goes into it to examine the plague, that all that is in the house may not be made unclean; and afterward the priest shall go in to examine the house. 37 And he shall examine the plague; and indeed if the plague is on the walls of the house with ingrained streaks, greenish or reddish, which appear to be [f]deep in the wall, 38 then the priest shall go out of the house, to the door of the house, and [g]shut up the house seven days.

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 14 - New King James Version

The Ritual for Cleansing Healed Lepers - Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “This shall be the law of the leper for the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought to the priest. And the priest shall go out of the camp, and the priest shall examine him; and indeed, if the leprosy is healed in...

www.biblegateway.com

For the law is good...

Again this is where context matters. Jesus was referring to the Ten Commandments in Matthew 5:19 as He quotes directly from them. Matthew 5:19-30 and no mention of your reference. Context doesn’t seem important to some but if allowed the Bible really does explain itself.

 

[Leaf473]

Again this is where context matters. Jesus was referring to the Ten Commandments in Matthew 5:19 as He quotes directly from them. Matthew 5:19-30 and no mention of your reference. Context doesn’t seem important to some people but if allowed the Bible really does explain itself.

Are you saying that Matthew 5:19 refers to the Ten commandments only?

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus never taught on lawlessness and said He did not come to destroy the law and putting an end to the law is the same thing

Amen
- and to put it another way - in Matt 5 He condemns lawlessness.
in Mark 7:6-13 Jesus shows how "sola scriptura" testing slam hammers man-made traditions that infringe on one of the TEN
IN Matt 19 Jesus flat out affirms the Commandments of God.

try to reconcile that with the rest of the scripture like Matthew 7:21-23, Revelation 14:12, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 22:14-15 1 John 2:3-6 and many others.

Amen - as you point out in Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP The Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

So no wonder we also have --
Rom 3:31 "do we abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! IN fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God"
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
where the "First commandment with a promise is - Honor your father and mother"

Jesus said if you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15.

Amen to that!!

Are you saying that Matthew 5:19 refers to the Ten commandments only?

It refers to all of the moral law of God for that law 'Defines what sin is" -- in 1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" and as we see in Eph 6:1-2 that includes the TEN.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Are you saying that Matthew 5:19 refers to the Ten commandments only?

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you.

The context of the commandments Jesus was quoting from was from the Ten Commandments Matthew 5:19-30 to teach something otherwise does not seem like an honest way of interpreting this passage.

 

[Cornelius8L]

God pours out rain on the good and the bad. God offers the Gospel to the lost, the wicked ... in fact Christ died for the lost. The Apostle Paul was at one time one of those Christian-hating non-Christians that God loved and that needed a witnesses from a faithful Christian.

Maybe honor and love are different? Love your enemy, not honor your enemy? What if the wicked parents say, “How are you honoring us if you are not listening to me but Jesus?” or “How are you honoring me by leaving us?” (Matt 19:19)

Indeed because being a righteous person is always doing honor to your parents.

Any example? Say, if the parents were child abusers?

 

[ralliann]

I don't entirely disagree, except to say that adherence to the law alone is no longer the sole basis for one's salvation. Yet, there was a reason those things were law, and because of that we should still pay attention to them. I suspect God doesn't change his mind very often.

He didn't change his mind, he if fulfilling it in Christ

 

[BobRyan]

Maybe honor and love are different? Love your enemy, not honor your enemy? What if the wicked parents say, “How are you honoring us if you are not listening to me but Jesus?” or “How are you honoring me by leaving us?” (Matt 19:19)

The righteous go to heaven. The wicked do not. A righteous child will live forever in heaven and may have something nice to say about their parents as well as demonstrating a saved-child that came from those parents. That honors their parents. IN any case - being obliterated in the lake of fire along with the wicked parents - does not serve those parents well in the end. It only obliterates them and all traces of their family.

 

[Leaf473]

Are you saying that Matthew 5:19 refers to the Ten commandments only?

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you.

It refers to all of the moral law of God for that law 'Defines what sin is" -- in 1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" and as we see in Eph 6:1-2 that includes the TEN.

Okay... Does it include this law?
“To the children of Levi, behold, I have given all the tithe in Israel for an inheritance, in return for their service which they serve, even the service of the Tent of Meeting.
Numbers 18

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you.

 

[Leaf473]

The context of the commandments Jesus was quoting from was from the Ten Commandments Matthew 5:19-30 to teach something otherwise does not seem like an honest way of interpreting this passage.

I agree he quotes from the Ten commandments, and that's part of the context. He also quotes some other things.

So the question is: Are you saying that he was referring to the Ten commandments only?

Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.
Proverbs 16