Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

SabbathBlessings

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Before the cross, Jesus taught his disciples to keep all of the laws, didn't he?

It's what happened after the the cross that this thread is about imo.

Do you believe the hollering Unclean unclean commandment ended at the cross?

The only laws that ended at the cross are the ordinances Colossians 2:14, Eph 2:15 in the law of Moses that have to do with the sanctuary laws/sacrificial food/drink offerings for the remission of sins that all pointed to Jesus because He became our Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sins when one repents are turns from sin (breaking God’s law) 1 John 3:4

The Ten Commandments is what points out sin and God’s people will continue to keep the commandments of God right until Jesus comes.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers (Breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment #7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (breaking commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (breaking # 9 Exodus 20:16 and breaking all of the commandments see 1 John 2:4).

I am going to leave this once again as we will have to agree to disagree. It’s really not complicated, but people believe what they want. This will all get sorted out soon enough.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Fascinating! If none of the commandments ended at the cross, then those offerings are still in place.
Yes, no scripture stating tithes and offerings have ended like I have said a dozen times.
 
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Leaf473

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The only laws that changed at the cross are the ordinances Colossians 2:14, Eph 2:15 in the law of Moses that have to do with the sanctuary laws for the remission of sins because Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sins.

The Ten Commandments is what points out sin and God’s people will continue to keep the commandments of God right until Jesus comes.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers (Breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment #7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (breaking commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (breaking # 9 Exodus 20:16 and breaking all of the commandments see 1 John 2:4).

I am going to leave this once again as we will have to agree to disagree. It’s really not complicated, but people believe what they want. This will all get sorted out soon enough.
Okay... then those who keep the commandments in Revelation 22 would endorse keeping the Commandment to holler out Unclean, if what you say is correct.

The group that you fellowship with, do they practice this?
 
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Leaf473

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Yes, no scripture stating tithes and offerings have ended like I have said a dozen times.
Cool! And the tithes belong to the Levites as that scripture reference indicates, yes? How do you keep that commandment to the letter?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Okay... then those who keep the commandments in Revelation 22 would endorse keeping the Commandment to holler out Unclean, if what you say is correct.

The group that you fellowship with, do they practice this?

Do I separate myself from people who have contagious diseases, yes. Not sure what that has to do with the post you’re responding to.

Revelation 22:14-15 is very specifically referring to the Ten Commandments as outlined in my post.

Do I search scriptures to try to disprove undisputed scripture over and over. No, but if that works for you, I will leave that between you and God.
 
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Leaf473

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Do I separate myself from people who have contagious diseases, yes.

Do I search scriptures to try to disprove undisputed scripture over and over. No, but if that works for you, I will leave that between you and God.
The interpretations of the scriptures are disputed, that is why we have the possibility of an interesting discussion.

That's great that you separate yourself. Now, about the hollering Unclean. The group that you fellowship with, do they keep that to the letter?
 
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Leaf473

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We can cut to the chase here if you wish, SB.

Loma Linda is a world-class hospital, thanks be to God for that!

It is essentially run by the SDA Church, thanks be to God for all the wonderful work SDA's do around the world.

Do they keep the hollering commandment in the dermatology ward there? If they did, it would be common knowledge, just like it's common knowledge that Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions.

But I'm sure they keep the principle of the Commandment, isolating contagious diseases.

Nobody knows where the Levites are today, so nobody is giving their tithe to the Levites. But a lot of people keep the principle of the Commandment, put 10% of your paycheck in the offering plate.

So we keep the principles of the commandments, Amen to that. Of course, if I misrepresented your position, please correct me.

And may the peace of the Lord Jesus be with you all!
 
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SabbathBlessings

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We can cut to the chase here if you wish, SB.

Loma Linda is a world-class hospital, thanks be to God for that!

It is essentially run by the SDA Church, thanks be to God for all the wonderful work SDA's do around the world.

Do they keep the hollering commandment in the dermatology ward there? If they did, it would be common knowledge, just like it's common knowledge that Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions.

But I'm sure they keep the principle of the Commandment, isolating contagious diseases.

Nobody knows where the Levites are today, so nobody is giving their tithe to the Levites. But a lot of people keep the principle of the Commandment, put 10% of your paycheck in the offering plate.

So we keep the principles of the commandments, Amen to that. Of course, if I misrepresented your position, please correct me.

And may the peace of the Lord Jesus be with you all!

We are no longer under the Levitical priesthood as Jesus is our High Priest administering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary. If you don’t feel you need to keep the Ten Commandments or only in principle in the way you define and not the way God defined as He has personally written and in His heavenly sanctuary Revelation 11:19, I’m not the one you need to convince. We all have to answer to a much greater Authority one day soon and we can’t hide anything from Him or outsmart Him. Take care Leaf as usual we will have to agree to disagree.
 
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Cornelius8L

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Yes, the commandments can be kept without love, but only God knows the heart and will judge each of us righteously.

According to the scripture one cannot love God though if breaking His commandments.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
Jesus points right to the Ten in His teachings…..and says when one obey mans rules above God’s commandments, one worships in vain.

Matthew 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”


And again teaching from His Fathers commandments
Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and,‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

And again Jesus teaching and warning us to not break the least of the commandments nor teach others to break them quoting directly from the Ten.

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly,while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny. 27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


The problem with a quick search instead of prayerfully and carefully studying the scripture is you tend to lose a lot of context. There are more than Ten Commandments, but the Ten Commandments are included in the commandments of God according to God. Exodus 34:28, Exodus 20:18, Exodus 20 and Jesus Matthew 15:3-9, Matthew 19:17-19, John 14:15, Matthew 5:19-30. They are different than all other commandments because God not only spoke the Ten, He also personally wrote these commandments with His own finger Exodus 31:18. Only the Ten were placed inside the ark of the Covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple which is revealed in heaven Revelation 11:19 under His mercy seat and what we will be judged on. James 2:10-12. Which is why Paul points directly to the Ten to point out sin. Romans 7:7

In regards to David, he did sin, but repented so his sins were blotted out and he did keep the commandments of God, just like we see with a lot of the hero’s in the scriptures many sinned, but were able to gain victor over sin and when we get to the faith chapters in Hebrews, their sins are not mentioned, because they all repented with a sincere heart, turned from their sin and walked with God in obedience to Him. This is encouraging for us because we too can overcome our sin through Jesus and He gives us a new heart that keeps His commandments through love and faith.
I trust your meaning of commandments includes the greatest and the second commandments in Matthew 22:36-40. We know these TWO commandments are beyond the TEN because the TEN are just part of the TWO. The TWO summarized more commandments and laws besides the TEN. Some examples include the criteria for entering the kingdom of heaven mentioned by Jesus in the Gospel books.

We agreed Jesus magnified the commandments from TEN regarding murder and adultery previously. Then, we would also agree,
  • Adultery also refers to unfaithfulness to God (Hosea 1:2)
  • Rebellion [towards the words of God] is like divination (1 Samuel 15:23)
  • Arrogance is like Idolatry (1 Samuel 15:23) – Therefore, we need to be humble like a child to enter KOH (Matthew 18:3-4)
  • Liar also refers to those who add to God’s words (Proverbs 30:6)
  • Murder also refers to anger/hatred toward a brother (Matthew 5:22) – “my brothers are those who are hearing and doing the word of God. (Luke 8:21)"
These examples are just to demonstrate that “Your commandment is exceedingly broad (Psalms 119:96)”

In short, I’m trying to say keeping the commandments is more than just keeping the letters from the TEN but the spirit of the TWO. One cannot enter KOH if he keeps the TEN but be like the Goats in the parable of Sheep and Goats (Matthew 25:31-46), thus breaking the TWO.

Also, since there was not much instruction on how to keep the fourth commandment today from the TEN, we shouldn’t break the TWO by enforcing/teaching human rules (Matthew 15:9) even if they were with good intentions. It is by the law of freedom (James 1:25) and the guidance of the Holy Spirit we know how to sacrifice our hearts and seek to know God (Psalms 51:17, 1 Samuel 15:22, Mark 12:33, Hosea 6:6, Romans 12:1, Jeremiah 17:10). Going to the church(building) on a designated day is a good practice (I must say), but I don’t think it should become a rule/checkbox to salvation.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I trust your meaning of commandments includes the greatest and the second commandments in Matthew 22:36-40. We know these TWO commandments are beyond the TEN because the TEN are just part of the TWO. The TWO summarized more commandments and laws besides the TEN. Some examples include the criteria for entering the kingdom of heaven mentioned by Jesus in the Gospel books.

We agreed Jesus magnified the commandments from TEN regarding murder and adultery previously. Then, we would also agree,
  • Adultery also refers to unfaithfulness to God (Hosea 1:2)
  • Rebellion [towards the words of God] is like divination (1 Samuel 15:23)
  • Arrogance is like Idolatry (1 Samuel 15:23) – Therefore, we need to be humble like a child to enter KOH (Matthew 18:3-4)
  • Liar also refers to those who add to God’s words (Proverbs 30:6)
  • Murder also refers to anger/hatred toward a brother (Matthew 5:22) – “my brothers are those who are hearing and doing the word of God. (Luke 8:21)"
These examples are just to demonstrate that “Your commandment is exceedingly broad (Psalms 119:96)”

In short, I’m trying to say keeping the commandments is more than just keeping the letters from the TEN but the spirit of the TWO. One cannot enter KOH if he keeps the TEN but be like the Goats in the parable of Sheep and Goats (Matthew 25:31-46), thus breaking the TWO.

Also, since there was not much instruction on how to keep the fourth commandment today from the TEN, we shouldn’t break the TWO by enforcing/teaching human rules (Matthew 15:9) even if they were with good intentions. It is by the law of freedom (James 1:25) and the guidance of the Holy Spirit we know how to sacrifice our hearts and seek to know God (Psalms 51:17, 1 Samuel 15:22, Mark 12:33, Hosea 6:6, Romans 12:1, Jeremiah 17:10). Going to the church(building) on a designated day is a good practice (I must say), but I don’t think it should become a rule/checkbox to salvation.

There is no argument that the Ten Commandments have a spiritual aspect to them that is greater than the letter. Jesus came to magnify the commandments Isaiah 42:21 Matthew 5:19-30 not change. If one is truly keeping the Spirit of the commandments the letter will automatically be kept. If you find yourself breaking the letter, you can’t be in the Spirit. The Spirit is given to help keep the commandments John 14:15-18 and to those who obey. Acts 5:32. His Spirit is what enables us to keep His law in our hearts and minds. We keep His commandments through love and faith.

In regards to your last sentences, our thoughts and feelings don’t really matter, only God’s Word does. I don’t think we should underestimate the scripture where we are told to follow the example of Jesus 1 John 2:6, so if going to church on the Sabbath was what Jesus did the majority of the time Luke 4:16, Mark 1:21 , Mark 6:2 and how He kept His Father’s commandments as our example John 15:10 I think we should believe the scriptures to follow His example. I think a lot of people look for the least they have to do to get into heaven, what Jesus wants is us to be changed through His Spirit and in doing so we will want to follow the Lamb and His example and worshipping the Lord on His holy Sabbath will continue for eternity Isaiah 66:22-23, God will is not different in heaven as it is on this earth.
 
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Cornelius8L

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In regards to your last sentences, our thoughts and feelings don’t really matter, only God’s Word does. I don’t think we should underestimate the scripture where we are told to follow the example of Jesus 1 John 2:6, so if going to church on the Sabbath was what Jesus did the majority of the time Luke 4:16, Mark 1:21 , Mark 6:2 and how He kept His Father’s commandments as our example John 15:10 I think we should believe the scriptures to follow His example. I think a lot of people look for the least they have to do to get into heaven, what Jesus wants is us to be changed through His Spirit and in doing so we will want to follow the Lamb and His example and worshipping the Lord on His holy Sabbath will continue for eternity Isaiah 66:22-23, God will is not different in heaven as it is on this earth.
“Custom” discussion aside, we know Jesus always went to the temple and synagogues intending to teach [the same thing He did every day everywhere] and ultimately got Himself into trouble. It was with an act of loving God and man (1 John 2:5) with the cost of His life on the cross. “I always taught in the synagogues and at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret (John 18:20).”

(Matthew 21:23) When Jesus returned to the temple courts and began to teach, the chief priests and elders of the people came up to Him. “By what authority are You doing these things?” they asked. “And who gave You this authority?”

Is anyone courageous enough to oppose the leaders like Jesus did if they found wrong teachings in the church? If yes, that is definitely commendable. No doubt.

Walking the way Jesus walked (1 John 2:6) can mean commands such as (Matthew 16:24-25) “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” Etc
 
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Leaf473

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We are no longer under the Levitical priesthood as Jesus is our High Priest administering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary.
That's true, that we are no longer under the levitical priesthood. But the commandments say to give the tithe to the Levites, do they not? Isn't that what Numbers 18 is about?
 
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Leaf473

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If you don’t feel you need to keep the Ten Commandments or only in principle in the way you define and not the way God defined as He has personally written and in His heavenly sanctuary Revelation 11:19, I’m not the one you need to convince.
Leviticus 13 also contains commandments of God. I brought them up to show that the partial law keeping theology that you endorse unravels when applied to the whole Bible.
 
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Leaf473

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We all have to answer to a much greater Authority one day soon and we can’t hide anything from Him or outsmart Him. Take care Leaf as usual we will have to agree to disagree.
Right! We don't want to try to outsmart God.

But we do want to use the scriptures to test theologies.

If you don't want to talk anymore, that's okay. Peace be with you.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Leviticus 13 also contains commandments of God. I brought them up to show that the partial law keeping theology that you endorse unravels when applied to the whole Bible.
As I have stated a few times, if you don’t understand the role of the Ten Commandments compared to all other laws i.e. statues, ordinances, judgements etc, I can see why one misunderstands some of these scriptures and James 2:10-12 who is directly quoting from the Ten Commandments when stating if you break one of these commandments you break them all. The part that really unravels is when we start disregarding the Ten Commandments, when Jesus clearly speaks of keeping these commandments versus not keeping them or changing them.
 
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Leaf473

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As I have stated a few times, if you don’t understand the role of the Ten Commandments compared to all other laws i.e. statues, ordinances, judgements etc, I can see why one misunderstands some of these scriptures and James 2:10-12 who is directly quoting from the Ten Commandments when stating if you break one of these commandments you break them all. The part that really unravels is when we start disregarding the Ten Commandments, when Jesus clearly speaks of keeping these commandments versus not keeping them or changing them.
_________
...I can see why one misunderstands some of these scriptures...
Good! Then we have something to discuss.

What is it you feel I don't understand about Leviticus 13?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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_________

Good! Then we have something to discuss.

What is it you feel I don't understand about Leviticus 13?
Not sure if you read my post but I am referring to the role of the Ten Commandments. Perhaps you can quote where Lev 13 is part of the Ten Commandments.

I think we have discussed this long enough to know where we stand on this position (Ten Commandments) and neither of us appears to be changing out opinion, so doesn't make sense to continue on. I'll end it with wishing you the best in seeking God's Word.
 
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Leaf473

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Not sure if you read my post but I am referring to the role of the Ten Commandments. Perhaps you can quote where Lev 13 is part of the Ten Commandments.

I think we have discussed this long enough to know where we stand on this position (Ten Commandments) and neither of us appears to be changing out opinion, so doesn't make sense to continue on. I'll end it with wishing you the best in seeking God's Word.
I don't think Leviticus 13 is part of the ten commandments.

But my impression was that you thought that Leviticus 13 contained some of the eternal commandments of God, yes?

James 2 says that if we break one part of the law, we break it all. So if one is not keeping the commandments in Leviticus 13, one is also breaking the ten commandments. I think that's how it would relate.

But if you don't want to talk about it anymore, that's fine. May the peace of the Lord be always with you.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I don't think Leviticus 13 is part of the ten commandments.

But my impression was that you thought that Leviticus 13 contained some of the eternal commandments of God, yes?

James 2 says that if we break one part of the law, we break it all. So if one is not keeping the commandments in Leviticus 13, one is also breaking the ten commandments. I think that's how it would relate.

But if you don't want to talk about it anymore, that's fine. May the peace of the Lord be always with you.

Well lets quote James:

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

Which law is James referring to? The Ten Commandments, what we will be judged by. Like I have stated a few times if one is truly keeping the Ten Commandments is both truth and spirit one is more than likely keeping all of the other laws that pertain to today. What I'm not interested in debating about which most of your posts end up in this direction, is searching for scripture just to find one Mosaic law that we don't keep today as a way to say, hey look we don't keep this law, so therefore we don't need to keep the Ten Commandments despite Jesus telling us we do. Unless you're coming from some sort of absolute about the Ten Commandments and building on that, instead of trying to constantly disprove them, you can't reason with this mindset and going down this path again is not something that makes sense to continue pursing since nothing has changed in over two years of discussions.
 
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Leaf473

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Well lets quote James:

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

Which law is James referring to? The Ten Commandments, what we will be judged by. Like I have stated a few times if one is truly keeping the Ten Commandments is both truth and spirit one is more than likely keeping all of the other laws that pertain to today. What I'm not interested in debating about which most of your posts end up in this direction is searching for scripture just to find one Mosaic law that we don't keep today as a way to say, hey look we don't keep this law, so therefore we don't need to keep the Ten Commandments. You can't reason with this mindset and going down the rabbit hole is not something I am interested in pursuing further.
James says what law he is referring to, "the whole law". And he quotes from the ten commandments as well as the second greatest commandment, which is from the book of Leviticus.

Does Leviticus 13 not contain some of the commandments of God? I thought you had said earlier that commandments about clean and unclean were some of the commandments of God? Yes?
 
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