Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[SabbathBlessings]

I agree he quotes from the Ten commandments, and that's part of the context. He also quotes some other things.

So the question is: Are you saying that he was referring to the Ten commandments only?

Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.
Proverbs 16

If Jesus is telling those who teach others the least of these commandments and quotes right from the Ten and that they will be least in heaven does it sound like the Ten Commandments that God personally engraved and is in the ark of the covenant in His Most Holy of God’s Temple where He dwells in heaven Revelation 11:19 has ended or “fulfilled” so we no longer need to keep? I don’t think least means one will be there but instead is lost, we have free will to test this theory but scripture gives us warnings to help guide us on the narrow path Matthew 7:21-23, Hebrews 10:26-30, Revelation 22:14-15, 1 John 2:3-6, Matthew 19:17-19. We can trust the scriptures how it reads or point to other parts of scripture that Jesus is not referring to which makes His teaching out of context. We are sanctified by the Truth of God’s Word John 17:17

 

[BobRyan]

Okay... Does it include this law?
“To the children of Levi, behold, I have given all the tithe in Israel for an inheritance, in return for their service which they serve, even the service of the Tent of Meeting.
Numbers 18

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you.

Tithing is a Biblical teaching that promotes the work of the Gospel. Jesus did not die on the cross so that people would not support the church.

A great many denominations know this to be true - so not just my own POV.

Or are you saying that the Heb 7 teaching of the priesthood being ended somehow deletes the biblical teaching on Tithing???

And since you are posting this on a "all Laws of God ended" thread - do you mean to say that if the law on Tithing changes even one iota - that the command against taking God's name in vain must have been deleted???

(will be curious to see if you respond to each question above)

 

[Leaf473]

If Jesus is telling those who teach others the least of these commandments and quotes right from the Ten and that they will be least in heaven does it sound like the Ten Commandments that God personally engraved and is in the ark of the covenant in His Most Holy of God’s Temple where He dwells in heaven Revelation 11:19 has ended or “fulfilled” so we no longer need to keep? I don’t think least means one will be there but instead is lost, we have free will to test this theory but scripture gives us warnings to help guide us on the narrow path Matthew 7:21-23, Hebrews 10:26-30, Revelation 22:14-15, 1 John 2:3-6, Matthew 19:17-19. We can trust the scriptures how it reads or point to other parts of scripture that Jesus is not referring to which makes His teaching out of context. We are sanctified by the Truth of God’s Word John 17:17

The short answer to your question is Yes, I do think the Ten commandments are included in the Law and the Prophets which are fulfilled.

Let's take a look at the passage:
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets.
See how Law and Prophets are capitalized? That's because the New King James Version is treating them as proper nouns. That's because it was the standard Jewish way of referring to what we call the Old Testament.

I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
And Yes, Fulfill can mean either completed or ongoing.

18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
If you say that the laws about animal sacrifice have ended, then at least some things have passed from the Law. That means that either heaven and Earth have passed away, or all is fulfilled (or both).

Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments,
Based on context, Jesus appears to be using commandments here as synonymous with the Law. So it's whoever breaks the least commandment, maybe like the blended fabric or hair cutting instruction.

and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Yes, and Amen!

Matthew 5 NKJV

Comments?

 

[Leaf473]

(will be curious to see if you respond to each question above)

Sure thing, but it may take a while on this here cell phone

A scripture on my mind today from Philippians 4
Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

 

[Leaf473]

Tithing is a Biblical teaching that promotes the work of the Gospel. Jesus did not die on the cross so that people would not support the church.

I believe the letter of the law there says that the tithe belongs to the Levites. Sometimes people say that any law that requires a Levite has ended.

I think the New Testament talks about giving money to those who preach the gospel and to the poor. It doesn't mention Church buildings, though I don't think there would be anything wrong with supporting Church buildings, if you wish.

Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I commanded the assemblies of Galatia, you do likewise. 2 On the first day of every week, let each one of you save, as he may prosper, that no collections are made when I come. 3 When I arrive, I will send whoever you approve with letters to carry your gracious gift to Jerusalem.

 

[Leaf473]

A great many denominations know this to be true - so not just my own POV.

I agree that lots of churches teach tithing, though what they teach is a loose version of what the law of Moses talks about. In Leviticus, the tithe is on harvest and animals. In Deuteronomy 14, it's done differently every third year:
At the end of every three years you shall bring all the tithe of your increase in the same year, and shall store it within your gates. 29 The Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, as well as the foreigner living among you, the fatherless, and the widow who are within your gates shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

 

[Leaf473]

Or are you saying that the Heb 7 teaching of the priesthood being ended somehow deletes the biblical teaching on Tithing???

Well, in the context of Matthew 5, it's not Deleted but Fulfilled.

If a single part has passed from the Law, then something major has happened regarding fulfillment imo.

And that would work well with Hebrews 7, if it says that the levitical priesthood has come to an end.

Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, has turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, in that he was jealous with my jealousy among them, so that I didn’t consume the children of Israel in my jealousy. 12 Therefore say, ‘Behold, I give to him my covenant of peace. 13 It shall be to him, and to his offspring after him, the covenant of an everlasting priesthood, because he was jealous for his God, and made atonement for the children of Israel.’
Numbers 25

 

[BobRyan]

Well, in the context of Matthew 5, it's not Deleted but Fulfilled.

Tithing to support the church is fulfilled and now the church no longer needs support? seriously?
And is it your claim that this ends all laws of God found in His Word? Including "do not take God's name in vain"???

 

[BobRyan]

I agree that lots of churches teach tithing, though what they teach is a loose version of what the law of Moses talks about. In Leviticus, the tithe is on harvest and animals.

This principle is the same and as we see in both NT and OT tithe could be paid in cash to those at the temple or in animals. In fact there was something called "The temple shekel".

Is it your claim that this deletes all the laws of God??

 

[BobRyan]

I have seen 3 or 4 posts since this one where I asked two questions... waiting for the second to be addressed.

Tithing is a Biblical teaching that promotes the work of the Gospel. Jesus did not die on the cross so that people would not support the church.

A great many denominations know this to be true - so not just my own POV.

Or are you saying that the Heb 7 teaching of the priesthood being ended somehow deletes the biblical teaching on Tithing???

And since you are posting this on a "all Laws of God ended" thread - do you mean to say that if the law on Tithing changes even one iota - that the command against taking God's name in vain must have been deleted???

(will be curious to see if you respond to each question above)

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The short answer to your question is Yes, I do think the Ten commandments are included in the Law and the Prophets which are fulfilled.

Let's take a look at the passage:
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets.
See how Law and Prophets are capitalized? That's because the New King James Version is treating them as proper nouns. That's because it was the standard Jewish way of referring to what we call the Old Testament.

I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
And Yes, Fulfill can mean either completed or ongoing.

18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
If you say that the laws about animal sacrifice have ended, then at least some things have passed from the Law. That means that either heaven and Earth have passed away, or all is fulfilled (or both).

Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments,
Based on context, Jesus appears to be using commandments here as synonymous with the Law. So it's whoever breaks the least commandment, maybe like the blended fabric or hair cutting instruction.

and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Yes, and Amen!

Matthew 5 NKJV

Comments?

Jesus said : Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19 If fulfilled means what you stated previously, the laws ended then you have Jesus contradicting Himself because what would be the point of teaching others the commandments if it didn’t matter. There will never be a time before or after the Cross where we are free to sin (break God’s law 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7) and can worship other gods, bow to false images, vain God’s holy name, break God’s holy Sabbath day, covet, murder, steal etc. Fulfill in Matthew 5:17 means to fill-full. Like a marriage convent is fulfilled when you keep your vows, not when you break them. Jesus came to magnify the law Isaiah 42:21 which means to enlarge not make smaller and shows us an example of what that looks like right in this very passage Matthew 5:17-30. Jesus said I came to fulfill the law- to make it full and honorable, not to destroy and what is being taught by so many has Jesus saying- I did not come to destroy the law but to put an end to it (fulfill), which if one wanted to be honest with this passage would see that is not what Jesus is teaching here or taught during His time on earth. John 14:15, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 15:3-9, John 15:10

Jesus lived a perfect life of obedience to the commandments John 15:10, 1 Peter 2:21-23 Hebrews 4:15 as our example to follow. 1 John 2:6 which reconciles with Matthew 5:17-30 Matthew 7:21-23, Revelation 22:14-15, John 14:15, Romans 6:16, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12. Jesus came to save us from our sins, not in them Matthew 1:21

More than likely we will have to agree to disagree and I’ll probably bow out since this is the same discussion we had for years and nothing will convince me that we no longer need to obey God’s commandments and no scriptures I have posted over the past couple years seems to have made a difference in your view. Jesus will be our righteous Judge and we will all stand before Him soon, so I will pray that we all will be able to stand and meet Him in the air at His Second Coming.

 

[Leaf473]

And since you are posting this on a "all Laws of God ended" thread - do you mean to say that if the law on Tithing changes even one iota - that the command against taking God's name in vain must have been deleted???

Again, not deleted, but fulfilled.

@SabbathBlessings and I were talking about Matthew 5 and whether or not Jesus was talking about the entire law when he says the "Law and the Prophets" and "the least of these commandments".

If one iota or any other part has passed from the Law, then something major has happened with the entire law. That would include the command against taking God's name in vain, since it's part of the entire law.

Leviticus 18
You shall do my ordinances. You shall keep my statutes and walk in them. I am the Lord your God.

(will be curious to see if you respond to each question above)

I believe I got them all. Please let me know if I missed one

 

[BobRyan]

And since you are posting this on a "all Laws of God ended" thread - do you mean to say that if the law on Tithing changes even one iota - that the command against taking God's name in vain must have been deleted???

Again, not deleted, but fulfilled.

So your claim is that as soon as the Nazarine Carpenter paid tithe - then the law to not take God's name in vain ended along with all of God's Word all His commands?

Seriously?

 

[Leaf473]

Tithing to support the church is fulfilled and now the church no longer needs support? seriously?
And is it your claim that this ends all laws of God found in His Word? Including "do not take God's name in vain"???

Tithing to support the church is not found in the law of Moses. Tithing to support the Levites and the priests is found, though.

Jesus said,
For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.

If tithing to support the Levites has passed away from the law, then either heaven and Earth have passed away or all is accomplished.

The instructions about tithing and God's name are both part of the Law, from "the Law and the Prophets". If one of them has passed from the law, then there has been a huge shift of some kind.

But I don't think Jesus came to end any laws. He said he came to fulfill.
______________
Now all this has happened that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying,
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child,
and shall give birth to a son.
They shall call his name Immanuel,”
which is, being interpreted, “God with us.”

 

[Leaf473]

Tithing to support the church is fulfilled and now the church no longer needs support? seriously?
And is it your claim that this ends all laws of God found in His Word? Including "do not take God's name in vain"???

__________________

Including "do not take God's name in vain"???

I see you use quotes above. Did you want quote the letter of the ten commandments?

The letter says:
"You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who misuses his name", where "the Lord" is a replacement for "yhwh".

Yhwh is God's personal name, "God" is a generic title.

This is an example of using God's name:
But if he will not do the duty of a kinsman for you, then I will do the duty of a kinsman for you, as the Lord (yhwh) lives.
Ruth 3

If Boaz doesn't fulfill that oath, he will have misused the Lord's (yhwh's) name.

 

[Leaf473]

This principle is the same and as we see in both NT and OT tithe could be paid in cash to those at the temple or in animals. In fact there was something called "The temple shekel".

Is it your claim that this deletes all the laws of God??

If you'd like to talk in detail about the laws that allow paying the tithe in cash, we can do that.

But I'd much prefer to talk about this:

This principle is the same...

Yes! It's the principles that we keep, as Christians.

And that's the key: The laws aren't deleted, they are fulfilled... and we continue to keep the principles!

“Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, will be given to you. For with the same measure you measure it will be measured back to you.”
Luke 6

 

[Leaf473]

I have seen 3 or 4 posts since this one where I asked two questions... waiting for the second to be addressed.

Yes, I was working through your post one point at a time. Please let me know if I missed any points by now

Proverbs 19
It isn’t good to have zeal without knowledge, nor being hasty with one’s feet and missing the way.

 

[Leaf473]

Jesus said : Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19 If fulfilled means what you stated previously, the laws ended then you have Jesus contradicting Himself because what would be the point of teaching others the commandments if it didn’t matter. There will never be a time before or after the Cross where we are free to sin (break God’s law 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7) and can worship other gods, bow to false images, vain God’s holy name, break God’s holy Sabbath day, covet, murder, steal etc. Fulfill in Matthew 5:17 means to fill-full. Like a marriage convent is fulfilled when you keep your vows, not when you break them. Jesus came to magnify the law Isaiah 42:21 which means to enlarge not make smaller and shows us an example of what that looks like right in this very passage Matthew 5:17-30. Jesus said I came to fulfill the law- to make it full and honorable, not to destroy and what is being taught by so many has Jesus saying- I did not come to destroy the law but to put an end to it (fulfill), which if one wanted to be honest with this passage would see that is not what Jesus is teaching here or taught during His time on earth. John 14:15, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 15:3-9, John 15:10

Jesus lived a perfect life of obedience to the commandments John 15:10, 1 Peter 2:21-23 Hebrews 4:15 as our example to follow. 1 John 2:6 which reconciles with Matthew 5:17-30 Matthew 7:21-23, Revelation 22:14-15, John 14:15, Romans 6:16, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12. Jesus came to save us from our sins, not in them Matthew 1:21

More than likely we will have to agree to disagree and I’ll probably bow out since this is the same discussion we had for years and nothing will convince me that we no longer need to obey God’s commandments and no scriptures I have posted over the past couple years seems to have made a difference in your view. Jesus will be our righteous Judge and we will all stand before Him soon, so I will pray that we all will be able to stand and meet Him in the air at His Second Coming.

To understand what I'm saying about "the least of these commandments", a person has to be willing to deal with the words that come just before it:

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. NKJV

Do you not teach that the laws about animal sacrifices have passed from the law?
What happened?

Habakkuk 3
He stood, and shook the earth. He looked, and made the nations tremble. The ancient mountains were crumbled. The age-old hills collapsed. His ways are eternal.

 

[Leaf473]

So your claim is that as soon as the Nazarine Carpenter paid tithe - then the law to not take God's name in vain ended along with all of God's Word all His commands?

Seriously?

No. I'm saying that as soon as
Heaven and Earth have passed away
and/or
All is fulfilled/accomplished,
then things can pass away from the Law.

Do you not say that the letters of the tithing commandments that relate to the Levites have passed away from the law? Which of the above two things have happened?

I call heaven and earth as witnesses
Deuteronomy 30

 

[SabbathBlessings]

To understand what I'm saying about "the least of these commandments", a person has to be willing to deal with the words that come just before it:

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. NKJV

Do you not teach that the laws about animal sacrifices have passed from the law?
What happened?

As we already established Jesus was quoting from the Ten Commandments in Matthew 5:17-30 and no where does He refer to animal sacrifices in this passage, when we insert our ideas to the scriptures instead of allowing the scriptures to interpreter itself, it loses its Truth.

Do you not think the blood of Christ is able to cleanse us from all sins? 1 John 1:7-9 or should we continue with animal sacrifices despite the scripture telling us they were fulfilled in Christ when He became our Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sins? Hebrews 10:1-10

Do you think you’re free to worship other gods? That Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb so we can freely worship other gods and live in perpetual sin (breaking God’s law) 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7. Jesus tells us the answer to this Matthew 7:21-23 as told elsewhere Hebrews 10:26-20 Revelation 22:14-15 1 John 2:3-6 Romans 6:16, Romans 8:1-10 Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 15:3-9 but if you want to believe all the laws were fulfilled in Christ meaning they ended and we can freely do these things without consequence that will have to be between you and Christ.

Habakkuk 3
He stood, and shook the earth. He looked, and made the nations tremble. The ancient mountains were crumbled. The age-old hills collapsed. His ways are eternal.

God’s ways are eternal and His way is in the sanctuary Psalm 77:13 and in His sanctuary in the Most Holy of the dwelling place of God under His Mercy Seat are His personally engraved Ten Commandments that is in heaven Revelation 11:19.