Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[Cornelius8L]

Let’s discuss the commandment with a promise (Ephesians 6:2), honor your father and mother (Exodus 20:12). In OT, it was quite clear that father and mother refer to our biological parents. Jesus, however, in NT, said otherwise.

Luke 8
19Then Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see Him, but they were unable to reach Him because of the crowd. 20He was told, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see You.” 21But He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear the word of God and carry it out.”​

In other words, if Jesus’s biological mother does not carry out the words of God, will Jesus acknowledge her as mother? If the answer is no, then the OT 5th commandment has changed. No?

I’m trying to say keeping the commandments is more than just keeping the letters from the TEN but the spirit of the TWO. One cannot enter KOH if he keeps the TEN but be like the Goats in the parable of Sheep and Goats (Matthew 25:31-46), thus breaking the TWO.

Then, this is the thing. Have we been reading the letter correctly from the viewpoint of Jesus in the first place? If we read not from the perspective of God but men’s, we would have kept the wrong commandment in the eyes of God.

Mark 3
33But Jesus replied, “Who are My mother and My brothers?” 34Looking at those seated in a circle around Him, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 35For whoever does the will of God is My brother and sister and mother.”​

In this manner, Paul became the father (1 Corinthians 4:15) and mother (Galatians 4:19) of the believers at that time.

Like to hear from others.

 

[Bob S]

That's true, that we are no longer under the levitical priesthood. But the commandments say to give the tithe to the Levites, do they not? Isn't that what Numbers 18 is about?

Hi Leaf, most Christians have never really studied the tithing system God gave to the Israelites. The fact is that only those who raised crops and or animals were under the tithing system. The tent makers, silversmiths, and on and on were not under the tithing law. Jesus and Paul would not have been tithe payers. Another fact is that nowhere in the New Testament is there any admonition from any of the writers for us to return a tithe. We are to give out of love and need. Any church that demands tithe of their flock is either not aware of this or is deceiving their flocks. A church can set rules that if one wants to be a member they must give ten percent to retain membership, but it would be false to use Israel's tithing system for their reason.

 

[Leaf473]

Let’s discuss the commandment with a promise (Ephesians 6:2), honor your father and mother (Exodus 20:12). In OT, it was quite clear that father and mother refer to our biological parents. Jesus, however, in NT, said otherwise.

Luke 8
19Then Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see Him, but they were unable to reach Him because of the crowd. 20He was told, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see You.” 21But He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear the word of God and carry it out.”​

In other words, if Jesus’s biological mother does not carry out the words of God, will Jesus acknowledge her as mother? If the answer is no, then the OT 5th commandment has changed. No?


Then, this is the thing. Have we been reading the letter correctly from the viewpoint of Jesus in the first place? If we read not from the perspective of God but men’s, we would have kept the wrong commandment in the eyes of God.

Mark 3
33But Jesus replied, “Who are My mother and My brothers?” 34Looking at those seated in a circle around Him, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 35For whoever does the will of God is My brother and sister and mother.”​

In this manner, Paul became the father (1 Corinthians 4:15) and mother (Galatians 4:19) of the believers at that time.

Like to hear from others.

Sounds good. And I think Jesus said to call no man father.

In line with what you're saying,
I like to be honored. If I treat other people the way I want to be treated, I'm already trying to honor everyone!

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf, most Christians have never really studied the tithing system God gave to the Israelites. The fact is that only those who raised crops and or animals were under the tithing system. The tent makers, silversmiths, and on and on were not under the tithing law. Jesus and Paul would not have been tithe payers. Another fact is that nowhere in the New Testament is there any admonition from any of the writers for us to return a tithe. We are to give out of love and need. Any church that demands tithe of their flock is either not aware of this or is deceiving their flocks. A church can set rules that if one wants to be a member they must give ten percent to retain membership, but it would be false to use Israel's tithing system for their reason.

Absolutely! And Numbers 18 tells us
I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the tent of meeting.
Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 18 - New International Version

Step number one in strict biblical tithing is to find a Levite.

I like this approach better, which I think is what you're saying
Luke 6
“Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, will be given to you. For with the same measure you measure it will be measured back to you.”

 

[Cornelius8L]

In other words, if Jesus’s biological mother does not carry out the words of God, will Jesus acknowledge her as mother? If the answer is no, then the OT 5th commandment has changed. No?

So then, is the OT's interpretation of the 5th commandment nailed to the cross? Any thoughts?

 

[Leaf473]

So then, is the OT's interpretation of the 5th commandment nailed to the cross? Any thoughts?

Sounds good. Of course, that doesn't mean that we go around hating our biological parents. That would be the kind of caricature often given in response.

 

[Cornelius8L]

Sounds good. Of course, that doesn't mean that we go around hating our biological parents. That would be the kind of caricature often given in response.

Agree. The way I see it, this is God’s love and truth that set us free. Jesus’s definition of father and mother allows us to escape the condemnation of not honoring those horrible parents. At the same time, it commands parents to walk the will of God. If all family members, parents, and children walk the will of God, the family will be harmonious.

 

[Leaf473]

Agree. The way I see it, this is God’s love and truth that set us free. Jesus’s definition of father and mother allows us to escape the condemnation of not honoring those horrible parents. At the same time, it commands parents to walk the will of God. If all family members, parents, and children walk the will of God, the family will be harmonious.

Yes, it is for freedom that Christ has set us free!

 

[Bob S]

The Law became the ministry of death, see 2Cor3: 6-11. The Law was the words of the old covenant. The covenant was replaced at Calvary with the new and better covenant of Grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Anyone that teaches we are under the laws of the old covenant is teaching a false belief system.

 

[Cornelius8L]

The Law became the ministry of death, see 2Cor3: 6-11. The Law was the words of the old covenant. The covenant was replaced at Calvary with the new and better covenant of Grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Anyone that teaches we are under the laws of the old covenant is teaching a false belief system.

Let me help with the quotes.

2 Corinthians 3:7
Now if the ministry of death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at the face of Moses because of its fleeting glory,

Exodus 34:29
And when Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands, he was unaware that his face had become radiant from speaking with the LORD.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Let me help with the quotes.

2 Corinthians 3:7
Now if the ministry of death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at the face of Moses because of its fleeting glory,

Exodus 34:29
And when Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands, he was unaware that his face had become radiant from speaking with the LORD.

What is sin?

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

What is the consequence (ministry) of sin (breaking God’s law)?

Romans 6:23 3 For the wages of sin is death;

What did Jesus come to save us from?

Matthew 1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.” (Breaking God’s law) Jesus comes to save us from our sin, not in our sin.

The Ten Commandments is not sin, it points out sin so we know what not to break. We will be judged by the Ten Commandments James 2:10-12 and the Sabbath is part of that covenant of Ten Exodus 34:28 despite peoples objection to it.

If only people would spend as much energy just obeying God the way He asks, instead of desperately trying to find scripture to show we can break one of God’s commandments. There is no scripture showing we can break the commandments of God. When we surrender to Jesus and want to follow Him and do His will, He changes our heart, so we want to obey Him through love and faith. John 14:15, 1 John 5:3, Romans 3:31, Revelation 14:12

Exodus 34:29 is referring to the Glory of God, that no one could bear in our sinful state.

 

[Cornelius8L]

What is sin?

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

What is the consequence (ministry) of sin (breaking God’s law)?

Romans 6:23 3 For the wages of sin is death;

What did Jesus come to save us from?

Matthew 1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.” (Breaking God’s law) Jesus comes to save us from our sin, not in our sin.

The Ten Commandments is not sin, it points out sin so we know what not to break. We will be judged by the Ten Commandments James 2:10-12 and the Sabbath is part of that covenant of Ten Exodus 34:28 despite peoples objection to it.

If only people would spend as much energy just obeying God the way He asks, instead of desperately trying to find scripture to show we can break one of God’s commandments. There is no scripture showing we can break the commandments of God. When we surrender to Jesus and want to follow Him and do His will, He changes our heart, so we want to obey Him through love and faith. John 14:15, 1 John 5:3, Romans 3:31, Revelation 14:12

Exodus 34:29 is referring to the Glory of God, that no one could bear in our sinful state.

Breaking one of the TEN in OT brings death. I don’t see any issue with Paul calling it the ministry of death. 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 discussed Exodus 34:29. If God commands the apostles who lay the foundation(Ephesians 2:20) to teach these(Galatians 1:12, 2 Corinthians 12:1), then rejecting them is as good as breaking God’s commands.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Breaking one of the TEN in OT brings death. I don’t see any issue with Paul calling it the ministry of death. 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 discussed Exodus 34:29. If God commands the apostles who lay the foundation(Ephesians 2:20) to teach these(Galatians 1:12, 2 Corinthians 12:1), then rejecting them is as good as breaking God’s commands.

I was mainly quoting NT. Both OT and NT is all of God’s Word, by the way.

The ministry of death is the condemnation of sin. The commandments is what points out sin so we know what not to break even in the NT Romans 7:7 1 John 3:4. If we turn from sin and turn to Jesus through His power we can overcome sin. Those who walk in the flesh (sin) cannot please God.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

In the OT God often condemned sinners by death. In the NT, Jesus will condemn sin and sinners on the last day. Hebrews 10:26-30. The solution is to repent from our sins, be baptized and turn to Jesus who can give us a new heart when we are truly sorry and walk with Him in obedience to His commandments. Acts 2:38, John 14:15-18 through love and faith. 1 John 5:3, Romans 3:31, Revelation 14:12

 

[Cornelius8L]

I was mainly quoting NT. Both OT and NT is all of God’s Word, by the way.

The ministry of death is the condemnation of sin. The commandments is what points out sin so we know what not to break even in the NT Romans 7:7 1 John 3:4. If we turn from sin and turn to Jesus through His power we can overcome sin. Those who walk in the flesh (sin) cannot please God.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

In the OT God often condemned sinners by death. In the NT, Jesus will condemn sin and sinners on the last day. Hebrews 10:26-30. The solution is to repent from our sins, be baptized and turn to Jesus who can give us a new heart when we are truly sorry and walk with Him in obedience to His commandments. Acts 2:38, John 14:15-18 through love and faith. 1 John 5:3, Romans 3:31, Revelation 14:12

Sounds good. We pray for God’s mercy and wisdom to understand His exceedingly broad commandments together (Psalms 119:96)

 

[Leaf473]

I think all of us here want to do God's will.

We know that God's instructions can change over time. An example from earlier in the thread: first God says eat only plants, later he says animals are okay, too.

I'm thankful that we can all meet up here on CF to discuss what things are different about the New Covenant!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Sounds good. We pray for God’s mercy and wisdom to understand His exceedingly broad commandments together (Psalms 119:96)

Amen! And we should pray for thanks that we have such a loving Father who gives us such clear instructions on His holy commandments so we know how to obey Him and know what is righteous living Psalms 119:172 and for the manual He has given us through His divine scripture so we can be able to stand when Jesus returns.

 

[Leaf473]

(just came across this verse while I was looking for something else. This seems like the best place to share it.)

Luke 11
But give for gifts to the needy those things which are within, and behold, all things will be clean to you.

The Peace of the Lord be with you all.

 

[Bob S]

Amen! And we should pray for thanks that we have such a loving Father who gives us such clear instructions on His holy commandments so we know how to obey Him and know what is righteous living Psalms 119:172 and for the manual He has given us through His divine scripture so we can be able to stand when Jesus returns.

Sorry SB, God didn't give US those 613 laws, He gave them to only one nation, Israel. The Good News is that Jesus gave to all mankind the Royal Law of Love. If His Love law were to prevail in all mankind's hearts, we would completely conquer satan and his angels. Jn 15:
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

 

[Leaf473]

Responding to post 50 from here
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ons-teaching-on-origins.8265337/post-77058288

That's a good point!

But... Hebrews also doesn't tell us that we are free to not marry our dead brother's widow, I don't think. Maybe it does?

I believe this is referring to the entire law, so maybe it's included here?

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 10 - New International Version

Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All - The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. Otherwise, would they not have stopped...

www.biblegateway.com

Peace be with you

 

[Leaf473]

Responding to post #56 from here
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ons-teaching-on-origins.8265337/post-77058507

Not abolished, fulfilled. I believe that fits beautifully with Hebrews 10 and Matthew 7.

Peace be with you