Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[expos4ever]

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)

Hi, welcome to the thread.

We all know that Jesus instructs this guy to follow the Law. However, if the Law ends at the cross, as I believe the scriptural evidence shows, the law is no longer in force.

Again, scripture is largely an evolving narrative of God's redemptive work. You cannot simply assume that every instruction or commandment is an eternal truth.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Hi AS nice to meet you. I know your post was addressed to someone else so I hope you do not mind if I make a few comments that might be helpful to your discussion and I hope to you personally as someone who loves God. I do not spend much time here of late so forgive me for just popping in like this.

Why would you think that God's 10 commandments carried in the Ark of the Covenant are ignored? I am just wondering however, are you aware that not only was Gods' 10 commandments written with the finger of God on two tables of stone *Exodus 31:18 and spoken with the voice of God at Mt Sinai *Exodus 20:1-19 placed inside the Ark of the covenant *see Deuteronomy 10:2-5 but so was the Mosaic book of the covenant *see Exodus 24:7 compare Deuteronomy 31:24-26. This is of course all important to your questions so we can refer back to this section and scriptures provided here if you like a little latter if you like so get familiar with them because Gods' 10 commandments written on two tables of stone and spoken by God alone are those recorded in Exodus 20:1-19 while what was written in the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) was written by Moses alone under Gods' direction and placed in the side of the ark.

Now answering your questions from the scriptures we have hinted on earlier. Scripture context is your friend here in dealing with chapter Exodus 34 so let's add it back in and add some key points that might be helpful.

• Genesis 2:1-3 - God's 4th commandment "seventh day Sabbath" was made for all mankind before sin, before law, before Moses, before Jews and before Israel . Genesis 2:1-3 - The Sabbath was made for all mankind *Mark 2:27 at creation according to Jesus
  
• Genesis 26:5 - God's people kept God's laws by the spoken words of God before the written Words of God came at Mt Sinai
  
• Exodus 20:1-19 - Gods' people knew about and kept Gods' Sabbath before Mt Sinai - Exodus 16
• Exodus 20:1-19 God first directly speaks his 10 commandments to His people outlining what the 10 commandments are
  
• Exodus 22 to Exodus 33 All other Mosaic laws from the Mosaic book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7 were spoken to God's people by Moses including the Feast days after God directly speaks the 10 commandments from Exodus 20:1-19.

For example the Mosaic laws from the book of the covenant spoken by Moses included...

• Exodus 21:1-36 (laws of servants, kidnappers, laws to parents, and animals),
  
• Exodus 22:1-31 on Mosiac laws on theft and repayment, borrowing, fornication, witchcraft, bestiality, idolatry, widows, usury, pledges, magistrates, harvest first fruits.
  
• Exodus 23:1-33 on laws of slander, false witness, partiality, justice and judgement, oppressing the stranger, laws of the Sabbath and idolatry, and animal sacrifice and promises of blessings for obedience.
  
• Exodus 24:1-18 Moses is then called by God to come up the mountain, the people promise obedience to Moses, Moses builds an alter of twelve pillar and sprinkles the blood of the covenant sacrifice, and Moses goes to the Mountain for 40 days
• Exodus 25:1-40 Instructions of what the Israelite's were to bring to make the Ark of God, the table of show bread and golden candlesticks for the earthly Sanctuary.
• Exodus 26:1-37; Exodus 27:21 The Mosaic instructions to build the earthly Sanctuary
• Exodus 28:1-43 The Mosaic instructions for the Priesthood and garments
• Exodus 29:1-46 The Mosaic instructions for the sacrificial system and alter of burnt offerings
  
• Exodus 30:1-38 The Mosaic instructions for the sacrificial system continued
• Exodus 31:1-18 The Mosiac instructions on work in the Sanctuary, the Sabbath an everlasting sign of sanctification, Moses was given the two tables of stone with God writing the 10 commandments with His own finger.
  
• Exodus 32:1-35 God people disobey God making the idol of the golden calf. God and Moses are angry, Moses breaks the two tables of stone. Many people destroyed
  
• Exodus 33:1-23 God is angry with the people, the people are mourning, Moses talks with God to see God's glory.
• Exodus 34:1-35 The remaking or the broken tables of stone (10 commandments).

............

All of the above are scripture context to Exodus 34:1-28. So what we have is God speaking the 10 commandments to His people directly in Exodus 20:1-19 stating exactly what the 10 commandments are. Then we see many of the laws written by Moses from the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) being spoken by Moses to Gods' people. After this we see Moses being called by God to go up the mountain for 40 days and night in Exodus 24:1-10 while all the other chapters are instructions to God's people from the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) as listed above on various laws of the Priesthood and Sanctuary. Then in we see God making the two tables of stone and writing on them with His own finger what he spoke directly in Exodus 20:1-19 on two tables of stone and gives them to Moses for the ark of the covenant *Exodus 31:18; Exodus 32:15-16; Deuteronomy 10:2-5 to take down the Mountain while Gods' people were making and worshiping the golden calf and Moses upon seeing it breaking God's commandments written with Gods' finger on the two tables of stone.
Exodus 34:1-28 now is simply a continuation of the previous chapter context of God telling Moses to hew out two new tables of stone so God can re-write them for for Moses to come up the Mount to God the next morning *Exodus 34:1-2. Note Exodus 34:10 is God making the covenant with His people. That covenant included obedience to Gods' 10 commandments (Exodus 34:28) that was placed inside the ark of the covenant Deuteronomy 10:2-5 and the Mosiac book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) that was placed in the side of the ark of the covenant (Deuteronomy 31:24-26). As we continue reading Exodus 34 we see two sets of laws being compiled. God's 10 commandments being re-written by God and God adding more laws for him to write in the book of the covenant about God's people making covenants with the people of the land *Exodus 34:10-17. It continues then with God giving Moses instruction in regards to the Feast of Unleavened bread (Exodus 34:18) all the first born to be Gods (Exodus 34:19-20). Then in Exodus 34:21 the Sabbath commandment is mentioned in times of harvesting and that no harvesting is to take place on the Sabbath in Exodus 34:21 which is why the Sabbath was being mentioned. Then from Exodus 34:22-23 God is outlining the Feast of weeks which is a harvest Feast (which is why the Sabbath was mentioned - no harvesting to be done on the Sabbath). Exodus 34:25-26 is instructions for the Passover and blood sacrifice. Then note what Gods' says in Exodus 34:27-28 and the Lord said to Moses write all these words for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and Israel. Then after 40 days and 40 nights God writes on the tables of stone. So everything before God writing on the tables of stone Moses was writing in the book of the covenant not God's tables of stone.

According to the scriptures, it is the Mosaic book of shadow laws for remission of sins which included all the earthly Sanctuary laws, the laws of the Levitical Priesthood, the laws of meat and drink offerings, the laws for animal sacrifices and sin offerings through blood atonement, circumcision, the annual feast days linked into these earthly Sanctuary laws that were all shadows of things to come pointing to Jesus as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all and the body of Christ *John 1:29; Hebrews 10:10. All these shadow laws pointed also to Jesus as our true great High Priest now to appear in the presence of God for us *Hebrews 7:1-25 in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man based on the better promises of the new covenant *see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22. So your mixing up the Mosaic shadow laws for remission of sins from the Mosaic book of the old covenant (Exodus 24:7) that all prefigure Christ with Gods' eternal laws that in the new covenant give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing when obeyed) and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and righteousness (moral right doing when obeyed) * see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. It is impossible for example for God's 4th commandment to be a shadow of anything because it points backwards as a memorial of and celebration of the finished work of creation (Exodus 20:8-11; Genesis 2:1-3) not forwards to things to come. Notice that all the Mosiac shadow laws from the book of the old covenant written by Moses were all given after the fall of mankind and point to Jesus as Gods Saviour for mankind and Gods sacrifice for the sins of the world so that we can all seek God's forgiveness of our sins through the precious blood of Christ? Note Gods 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath that God made for mankind *Mark 2:27 was made for mankind before sin entered the world when mankind was in perfect harmony and sinless before God. There was no law, no shadow laws, because there was no sin, no Moses (no shadow laws) no Jews, no Israel. Only God and sinless mankind when the Sabbath was made for man. The Sabbath is an everlasting sign to Gods' people that God is saving us from our sins *Exodus 31:13-16; Ezekiel 20:20 that is an everlasting covenant that will be continued to be kept in the new heaven and the new earth after the second coming *see Isaiah 66:22-23. According to the scriptures God's saints keep all the commandments of God nt some of them *1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

Hope this is helpful.

Thank you, LoveGodsWord, for such a detailed and documented statement of your belief.

If I may summarize.

You believe that Moses recorded the process of a literal 6 day creation followed by a day of rest as represented in Genesis. And even though there is no command or instruction in Genesis to “Keep” the Sabbath, you believe that it is in fact a commandment there “for all mankind” and not just the Hebrews Moses addressed.

You also believe then, that Jesus’ instruction of Mark 2:27 was also for all mankind and not just applicable to the context of pre crucifixion instruction to Jewish people he was addressing.

You also believe that a distinction must be made between Mosaic shadow laws for remission of sins from the Mosaic book of the old covenant that all prefigure Christ and Gods' eternal laws that in the new covenant give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing when obeyed) and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and righteousness (moral right doing when obeyed).

Finally, you believe that It is impossible for God's 4th commandment to be a shadow of anything because it points backwards as a memorial of and celebration of the finished work of creation not forwards to things to come.


Is that about right?

 

[expos4ever]

Posters continue to belabour us about the head and ears with Romans 7:7, and Romans 3:20. And, of course, we get no context.

When the context is shown, it is clear neither of these texts underwrite the notion that the 10 commandments (or, more generally, the Law of Moses) remain in force.

Romans 3:20 (with context)

20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets..

Note that verses 1 - 20 is a story about the past. Here, Paul refers to the giving of the Law:

Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First, that they were entrusted with the actual words of God. 3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

Paul is telling us about history. And in verse 20, he arrives in the present:

But now apart from the Law ....

So the stuff in verse 20 about the Law giving knowledge of sin, is, yes, in the past. Why would Paul say "but now" if he was not saying "this stuff I have just been telling you is now behind us".

Romans 7:7 (in context)

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? Far from it! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Paul is telling us (verse 6) that the Law is behind us. Interesting verse 6 is never shown in the myriads of instances we are told that verse 7 teaches that we need the Law to define sin.

So what is Paul saying in verse 7? Having clearly declared that the law replaces the Spirit in verse 6, he anticipates the following objection: Paul, what are you then saying about the law - that it was a bad thing?

Fiddlesticks, replies Paul - he lauds the law for its historical role in teaching the Jew about sin. Yes, he is saying the law is behind us, but God is not doing away with it because it was a mistake.

Again, note the past tense:

On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.

 

[expos4ever]

To be honest, it sounds strange to me to leave following God’s law that He wrote in our hearts and minds up to man to decide.

Again, no one is saying this - why do you continue to misrepresent us?

If we did not have the indwelling Spirit, then, and only then, would your argument have any legs.

But we do have the Spirit. And you know this.

It really does not help your case that you are repeatedly constructing strawmen.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We disgree. . .

Clare I am not sure if you realize this, but the quotes you have listed of mine is either myself quoting you or asking you a question and it does not reflect what I believe or have clearly stated. This seems a bit deceptive so hoping it was just an oversight on your end but should be corrected. Thanks

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Thank you, LoveGodsWord, for such a detailed and documented statement of your belief.

If I may summarize.

You believe that Moses recorded the process of a literal 6 day creation followed by a day of rest as represented in Genesis. And even though there is no command or instruction in Genesis to “Keep” the Sabbath, you believe that it is in fact a commandment there “for all mankind” and not just the Hebrews Moses addressed.

You also believe then, that Jesus’ instruction of Mark 2:27 was also for all mankind and not just applicable to the context of pre crucifixion instruction to Jewish people he was addressing.

You also believe that a distinction must be made between Mosaic shadow laws for remission of sins from the Mosaic book of the old covenant that all prefigure Christ and Gods' eternal laws that in the new covenant give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing when obeyed) and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and righteousness (moral right doing when obeyed).

Finally, you believe that It is impossible for God's 4th commandment to be a shadow of anything because it points backwards as a memorial of and celebration of the finished work of creation not forwards to things to come.


Is that about right?

Hi AS nice to hear from you.

I would suggest taking the time to re-read and understand what has been shared from the scriptures and the context provided on Exodus 34 in post # 190 linked. There is a lot of useful information there that with God’s help I spent time in putting together for you and it is already a summary in and of itself in regards to the Sabbath from creation in Genesis 2 through to God providing His spoken and written laws all the way through to Exodus 34 defining God’s laws on the tables of stone and what made up the old covenant which of course included both Gods’ 10 commandments (Exodus 34:28) and the Mosaic “shadow laws” from the book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) which had different purposes. So if your wanting a summary of a summary you might end up losing much of what was already provided in the linked post above as already shown in your response post here.

If your wanting a summary of a summary then possibly a more accurate reflection of the linked post that is already a summary of Gods’ spoken laws from Genesis through to Gods’ written laws up to Exodus 34 and general linked post comments might look a little more like this..

SUMMARY OF POST # 190 LINKED

1. Gods Sabbath was made for all mankind (Adam and Eve) at creation – Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3

2. When God made the Sabbath for all mankind there was only Adam and Eve who were sinless. When the Sabbath was made for all mankind, there was no sin, no plan of salvation was given, therefore no shadow laws pointing to Jesus as the promised Messiah and God’s Saviour for the sins of all mankind. There was no Moses, no Jew, no Israel. Only Adam and Eve created on the sixth day of the creation seek that God blessed the “seventh day” and made the “seventh day” a holy day for all mankind – Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27; Genesis 1:26-31.

3. Gods’ 4th commandment does not point forwards to things to come. It points backwards to the finished work of creation as a memorial (Remember – Exodus 20:8) of creation and celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth. It is one of Gods’ eternal laws that are a sign that Gods’ people worship the only true God of creation of heaven and earth and is an everlasting covenant to His people that will be continued to be kept in the new Heavens and the new eath – Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Exodus 31:14-16; Isaiah 66:22-23

4. Before God’s written law Gods’ people followed God’s spoken laws *Genesis 26:5; Exodus 20:1-19; Exodus 31:18; Exodus 24:7; compare Deuteronomy 31:24-26

5. The Mosaic Covenant included both Gods 10 commandments that was directly spoken by God and written by God on two tables of stone with the finger of God and the Mosaic book of the covenant written by Moses – Exodus 31:18; Exodus 24:7; Deuteronomy 31:24-26.

6. God separated the 10 commandments written on stone from the Mosiac book of the covenant in the Ark of the covenant. The tables of stone were placed inside the ark underneath the mercy seat while the book of the covenant was place in the side of the ark separate from Gods’ 10 commandments. - Deuteronomy 10:2-5; Deuteronomy 31:24-26.

7. God’s 10 commandments in the new covenant have the same role they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing when obeyed) and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and righteousness (moral right doing when obeyed) – Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172

8. Gods’ 10 commandments are Gods’ eternal law and the standard of good when obeyed and evil when broken. They show us how to love God and our fellow man and that we need to be born again into God’s new covenant promise through faith because we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God and need God’s forgiveness that he paid in purchasing our sins with His own life and blood so that we can receive Gods’ great love and mercy – Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:2-4; John 3:16-36; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4-9; Matthew 5:17-26.

9. God’s Mosaic “shadow laws” for remission of sins included all the laws in regards to the earthly Sanctuary, the Levitical Priesthood, the laws for meat and drink offerings, the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings, circumcision the annual Feast days all of which were given after the fall and mankind had sinned so God’s people could seek God’s forgiveness whey they sinned. These of course being all “shadow laws” of things to come pointing to the body of Christ and Jesus as the promised Messiah and God’s trur sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all and the word of Jesus on our behalf in the new covenant in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man based on better promises – John 1:29; Hebrews 10:10; Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22​

There is much more not covered here written in post # 190 linked being a summary of many chapters.

May God bless you AS as you seek Him through His Word.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Clare:

I would really appreciate it if you would not micro-quote me. I won't do that to you, so I would appreciate it if you don't do that to me. Quoting me in mid-sentence changes the sentiment and context of my post. Not sure if that was by design, but I am going to assume it wasn't and just an honest mistake.

This is the full quote:

Not everything has ended. For example, the Sabbath does not point to Christ on the cross is points to Creation as a memorial of everything our God has created for us "Remember", the Sabbath day to keep it holy" Exodus 20:8 pointing to Genesis 2:1-3

This is what you quoted instead:

Not everything has ended. For example, the Sabbath does not point to Christ

I stand by my original post and the scripture I provided proves the point that the Sabbath commandment does not point to Christ on the cross, it is a memorial of God's Creation, and we should celebrate that every Sabbath by obeying the commandment of God written by the finger of God.

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath," (Matthew 11:28),

The Sabbath was made for man. Man was created on the sixth day Genesis 1:26 before the very first Sabbath man spent in the presence of God. Genesis 2:1-3. This was before sin and was part of God's perfect plan. When Jesus returns the saints will once again worship the Lord on His holy Sabbath day in His presence for eternity Isaiah 66:23

that he rest (Deuteronomy 5:14; Exodus 31:14-15, Exodus 34:21),
a theme running through both the OT and the NT (Joshua 1:13; Joshua 22:4; 1 Kings 8:56;
Matthew 11:28; Hebrews 4:1-11),

You seem to be removing a very important piece for some reason. God defines the Sabbath being on a the seventh day in very plain and clear words that God not only spoke, He wrote with His own finger.
Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.

In addition, you appear to be not including the very first part of the commandment.
Exodus 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy

So we know from the mouth of God the Sabbath is defined as being on the seventh day (not every day) and its a day we are to keep holy.

pointing to our full-time salvation rest in Christ (Hebrews 4:6-10),
as God rested full-time from all his work (Hebrews 4:4).

This is you quoting Hebrews 4 and not what Hebrews 4 actually says. I know this is a popular teaching that is not biblical and has lead people away from keeping the Sabbath commandment, the opposite of what Paul is saying. Hebrews 4 actually is affirming the Sabbath like Paul also says what matters is keeping the commandments of God.

Hebrews 4:9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
Rest here is sabbatismos which literally means keeping of the Sabbath. So this verse says there remains a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God.

σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

Hebrews 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

To enter into the Spiritual rest you must also cease from your work (Exodus 20:8-11) just as God did from His (Genesis 2:1-3)
The only day we were told to cease from our work is the seventh day Sabbath. All other days are working days according to God. Exodus 20:9

To receive the spiritual rest in Christ you must keep the Sabbath commandment, this is the door to enter into the spiritual rest in Christ. We work six days and the seventh day Christ wants to give us spiritual rest by having communion with God for a full 24 hours not speaking our words but speaking the words of Christ, not doing our ways but the ways of Christ. In return when we keep the Sabbath God blesses and sanctifies us. Ezekiel 20:12 Isaiah 58:13-14


The scripture you posted does not support your commentary

pointing to our full-time salvation rest in Christ (Hebrews 4:6-10),
as God rested full-time from all his work (Hebrews 4:4)

Hebrews 4:4 is referring to the seventh day- not “full-time”

Hebrews 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; (direct reference to Genesis 2:1-3)

God bless.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Posters continue to belabour us about the head and ears with Romans 7:7, and Romans 3:20. And, of course, we get no context.

When the context is shown, it is clear neither of these texts underwrite the notion that the 10 commandments (or, more generally, the Law of Moses) remain in force.

Romans 3:20 (with context)

20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets..

Note that verses 1 - 20 is a story about the past. Here, Paul refers to the giving of the Law:

Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First, that they were entrusted with the actual words of God. 3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

Paul is telling us about history. And in verse 20, he arrives in the present:

But now apart from the Law ....

So the stuff in verse 20 about the Law giving knowledge of sin, is, yes, in the past. Why would Paul say "but now" if he was not saying "this stuff I have just been telling you is now behind us".

Romans 7:7 (in context)

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? Far from it! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Paul is telling us (verse 6) that the Law is behind us. Interesting verse 6 is never shown in the myriads of instances we are told that verse 7 teaches that we need the Law to define sin.

So what is Paul saying in verse 7? Having clearly declared that the law replaces the Spirit in verse 6, he anticipates the following objection: Paul, what are you then saying about the law - that it was a bad thing?

Fiddlesticks, replies Paul - he lauds the law for its historical role in teaching the Jew about sin. Yes, he is saying the law is behind us, but God is not doing away with it because it was a mistake.

Again, note the past tense:

On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.

I know your post was for someone else. I hope you do not mind me sharing a few scriptures that might be helpful to the discussion for anyone who might be interested. I might make two detailed responses to this post. One on your claims in regards to God's 10 commandments not being referred to in Romans 3:20; and Romans 7:7 and God's 10 commandments being abolished and another adding scripture context your leaving out of Romans 7:6 that does not support you view of lawlessness (without law) which is not biblical. Let's show why from the scriptures.

A teaching of lawlessness (without law) is not biblical and is a false teaching according to the scriptures. If there is no law we have no knowledge of what sin is and have no need of Gods salvation. In fact according to the scriptures, Jesus taught us saying do not think I have come to destroy the law and the prophets in Matthew 5:17-20. That is do not even let it come into your mind and goes on to say, "unless our righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and the Pharisees we will not enter into the Kingdom of God *see Matthew 5:20; Matthew 23:27-31. According to the scriptures, Jesus came to fulfill not to abolish Gods' law. Anyone teaching Gods' law is abolished is teaching lawlessness (without law) which is not biblical. According to the scriptures, Jesus came to fulfill all righteousness *Matthew 3:15 and all things written of Him in the scriptures (e.g. Matthew 2:15; 23; Matthew 4:13-14; 8:16-17; 12-16:17; 13:35; 21:4; Matthew 27:35 etc) not abolish the 10 commandments.

Matthew 5:20 is interesting because on the outside the Scribes and Pharisees as Jesus taught appeared righteous to men. They appeared to others as outwardly blameless in regards to following God's laws but inwardly they were full of sin and like dead man bones *Matthew 23:27 breaking God's law *Matthew 23:27-28. Then Jesus says; For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven *Matthew 5:20. The scripture in Isaiah 42:21 show that Jesus came in fact to magnify the law and to make it honorable and to teach the true meaning of God's Law and that it is to be applied from the inside out to our very thoughts and feelings. It is not therefore good enough to have an outward appearance before men of being obedient to Gods' law. God reads the heart and knows we are all sick with sin *Matthew 15:19-20; Matthew 12:34-35; Jeremiah 13:23; Jeremiah 17:9-10; Matthew 15:19-20; John 5:42 and in need of a new heart and of a Saviour to save us from sin. Many do not know the meaning here according to Jesus in Matthew 9:12-13. Jesus then goes on to magnify Gods' 10 commandments in Matthew 5:21-28 where he talks about murdering your fellow man by being angry with them without reason or committing adultery in our thoughts by looking lustfully at a woman. Think it through dear friend. If Jesus was abolishing Gods' 10 commandments he would not be magnifying them and applying them to our very thoughts and feelings.

Sin is indeed the breaking of any one of God's 10 commandments according to James in James 2:10-11 who quotes the 6th and 7th commandment which agrees with Paul in Romans 7:7 where he says that the purpose of Gods' 10 commandments (quoting the 10th commandment) is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. This agrees with what Paul says in Romans 3:20 where he says for by the law we have a knowledge of what sin is when we break it. All the above of course agree with John who defines sin as the transgression of the law in 1 John 3:4. So your interpretation of the above scriptures is not biblical or supported in scripture.

According to the scriptures quoted above therefore the purpose of God's 10 commandments (not 9, or 613) is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) when obeyed and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and righteousness (moral right doing when obeyed) *see Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11; Romans 3:20 and 1 John 3:4 and to lead us to Christ that we might all be forgiven through faith (see Galatians 3:22-25; Matthew 9:12-13) so that we can be born again *1 John 3:4-9 and made free to walk in Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4. This is Gods' new covenant promise to all those who believe and follow Gods Word according to Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27.

A teaching of lawlessness (my meaning here of course is without law) or God's law being abolished is pretty much a teaching against the whole bible and John answers the question how do we know that we know God? He says "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." - 1 John 2:2-3. Further on we read from John in 1 John 3:6 "Whoever abides in Him sins not (see 1 John 3:4). Whoever sins (breaks Gods' law) has not seen Him or knows him."

So to claim that we know God while disregarding Gods' law is a teaching that is not biblical or stated anywhere in the scriptures. In fact in Proverbs 28:9 we read He that turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. We should also keep in mind that according to the scriptures, Jesus and all the Apostles upheld and taught Gods' law and everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as the standard of good and righteousness when obeyed and evil and sin when disobeyed (scripture support here and here linked).

………….

So what is the conclusion of the matter?

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: FEAR GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN.

God’s law (10 commandments) is not abolished. They never have been. According to Gods' new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 26:24-27 they are fulfilled and established in the life of a Spirit filled, born again believer as they believe God’s Word and abide in Christ and walk in His Spirit through faith *Galatians 5:16; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:4. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law). According to the scriptures, if we continue in known unrepentant sin we will not enter into God's Kingdom *see Hebrews 10:26-31; Romans 8:13; Matthew 7:21; Romans 6:23; Revelation 14:12.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Romans 7:7 (in context) But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? Far from it! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Paul is telling us (verse 6) that the Law is behind us. Interesting verse 6 is never shown in the myriads of instances we are told that verse 7 teaches that we need the Law to define sin.

So what is Paul saying in verse 7? Having clearly declared that the law replaces the Spirit in verse 6, he anticipates the following objection: Paul, what are you then saying about the law - that it was a bad thing?

Fiddlesticks, replies Paul - he lauds the law for its historical role in teaching the Jew about sin. Yes, he is saying the law is behind us, but God is not doing away with it because it was a mistake.

Again, note the past tense:

On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet

This was already addressed elsewhere your taking a single scripture from it's contexts around Romans 6:1-23; Romans 7:1-25 and Romans 8:1-13 and trying to apply an interpretation to fit a teaching of lawlessness (without law) which is not biblical or supported in the scriptures. There is no where in the entire bible that teaches that God's 10 commandments are abolished. It is a teaching that has Paul in contradiction with Paul when he says faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes Gods' law in Romans 3:31 or that circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandments of God in 1 Corinthians 7:19 or elsewhere when Paul shows that we love our neighbor as ourselves by being obedient to those commandments from Gods' law that show us how we love our fellow man in Romans 13:8-10.

Paul also shows in Romans 8:1-4 that the righteousness (moral right doing - Psalms 119:172) of the law is fulfilled in us as we walk not in the flesh but in Gods' Spirit (see also Galatians 5:16). Paul does not teach a teaching of lawlessness or that Gods' 10 commandments are abolished anywhere in the bible. He teaches they are established by faith and are a part of Gods 'new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. It is Paul not me that says that God's law is holy, just and good in Romans 7:12 and that it is God's law that gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken that is defined as breaking Gods' law in Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7 and that the purpose of Gods' law is to show us we are all sinners in need of Gods' grace that we can receive through faith as shown in Romans 2:4-29 to Romans 3:1-23 and that faith does not abolish Gods' law, but establishes Gods' law in the lives of all those who believe what Gods' Word says.

Your interpretation of a single scripture in Romans 7:6 taken away from it's context to apply a meaning that Gods 10 commandments have been abolished has Paul in contradiction with Paul and the rest of the bible. Here let's prove this and add all the context back in first by looking at the previous verse your disregarding. We can have a look at the whole chapter if your interpreted and their connection with Romans 6:1-23 through to Romans 7:1-25 and Romans 8:1-13 in another post if your interested that says the same thing that is being shared with you here, but let's simply start with the immediate scripture context your disregarding again if it might be helpful. Romans 7:1-7 is building on what Paul was talking about in Romans 6:1-23 where he contrasts baptism and the death of the old man of sin or dying to our sinful nature and walking in newness of life. Romans 8:1-13 is building on both Romans 6 and Romans 7 contrasting walking in the Spirit and not in the old man of the flesh that has died so that we can be married to another in Christ. This is all context your disregarding that does not agree with your interpretation of Romans 7:6.

Take a look...

Romans 7:1-7
[1], Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
[2], For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
[3], So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
[4], Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
[5], For when we were in the FLESH <G4561 Carnal mind or sinful human nature>, the motions of SINS, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit to death.
[6], But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
[7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust,3 except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.​

FROM THE SCRIPTURES ABOVE

• Paul is speaking to those who understand the law - Romans 7:1
• The law has dominion over a man as long as we live - Romans 7:1
• Example of marriage and a woman being bound to her husband as long as she lives - Romans 7:2
• If the husband dies then she is free to marry another - Romans 7:2-3
• We are to become dead to the law (of our first husband) by the body of Christ - Romans 7:2-4
• For when we were in the flesh (first husband sinful nature) the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death - Romans 7:5
• We are to die to what has bound us which is sin - Romans 7:5-6
• Dying to that which has bound us (sin and death) we can serve in newness of life of the Spirit - Romans 7:6 compare Galatians 5:16 with Romans 8:1-4 and Romans 8:13.
• It is through the law of God we have the knowledge of what sin is - Romans 7:7

The context your disregarding here is that Paul is talking to those who know the law and is saying that before we come to Christ we (those who know the law) are married to the law of sin and death which is working in our members. That is Gods' law reveals sin to us and gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. This first husband (sinful nature) must die before we can be married to Christ to walk in His Spirit in newness of life. This agrees with what Paul is talking about already in Romans 6:1-23 where he is talking about the true meaning of "baptism" and dying to the old man of sin so we can walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:1-7
[1], What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[2], God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? [3], Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[4], Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[5], For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[6], Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.
[7], For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[8], Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
[9], Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death has no more dominion over him.
[10], For in that he died, he died to sin once: but in that he lives, he lives to God.
[11], Likewise reckon you also yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[12], Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in the lusts thereof.
[13], Neither yield you your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin: but yield yourselves to God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
[14], For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace.
[15], What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
[16], Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?
[17], But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
[18], Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.​

FROM THE SCRIPTURES ABOVE

• We are not to continue in sin - Romans 6:1-2
• We are to be dead to sin - Romans 6:2
• We baptized into Christs death - Romans 6:3
• We are buried into Christs death through baptism - Romans 6:4
• We are to walk in newness of life - Romans 6:4-5
• Our old man of sin and death is crucified with Christ - Romans 6:6
• Our old man of sin and death is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin - Romans 6:6
• Our old man of sin and death is dead in Christ so we can be freed from sin - Romans 6:6-7
• Our old man of sin and death is dead with Christ so that we can live with Christ (married to another - Romans 7:1-7) - Romans 6:8
  
• We are to reckon ourselves dead indeed to sin, but alive to God through Jesus - Romans 6:11
• We are not to let sin (breaking God's law) reign in our bodies any longer - Romans 6:12
• We are to yield ourselves to God as those being alive from the dead - Romans 6:13
• Sin (breaking Gods' law) is no longer to have dominion over us - Romans 6:14
• We are made free from sin to become servants of right doing - Romans 6:18

................

CONCLUSION: It is that which binds us that we are released from which is sin that we are to die to not the law that gives us a knowledge of what sin is, so that we can be married to Christ and walk in His Spirit. We are released from the condemnation of sin and death through faith in Gods' Word and by walking in Gods Spirit in newness of life (Romans 8:1-4). So nope Romans 7:6 does not teach anywhere that Gods' 10 commandments are abolished. It is teaching that we must be released from the sin (breaking God's law) that has bound us to be married to another (Christ) to walk in newness of life not of the letter but of the Spirit of God. Every time you read the word "sin" above you can substitute it to breaking Gods' law and not believing Gods' Word *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11 and Romans 14:23. If there is no law then we have no knowledge of what sin is.

May God bless you as you receive his Words of correction.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You were describing what was written on your heart.

You started there, yes, please continue, if you wish.

May the Lord bless you and keep you.

God's law written on the heart includes the law written by the finger of God the Ten Commandments. We will be judged by the Ten Commandments James 2:10-12 and breaking one of them is like breaking them all. I believe we have a just and faithful God whose will is that everyone would accept Him and His free gift of grace and it is not His will that anyone perish. Why would God not write the law on everyone's heart if that's the law we will be judged by? That doesn't sound like a God of love. Unfortunately many people harden their hearts to God's Truth and He is calling us to worship Him in Truth and Spirit, many people are only hearers of the Word and not doers and God wants us to be doers of His Word. James 1:22, Romans 2:13, Matthew 5:21-23, Revelation 22:14-15

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Again, no one is saying this - why do you continue to misrepresent us?

If we did not have the indwelling Spirit, then, and only then, would your argument have any legs.

But we do have the Spirit. And you know this.

It really does not help your case that you are repeatedly constructing strawmen.

The Spirit is given to keep the commandments John 14:15-18 and given to those who obey. Acts 5:32. The Holy Spirit and the law of God are not in conflict.

You keep making it seem like there are three choices when there is only two.

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Sin is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4, obedience is keeping God's law. Those are the two choices. If we fall we can go to Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins when we repent, Jesus is willing to forgive us, but when we repent it means we are changed on the inside and should be walking in His Spirit in obedience to His commandments.

 

[Clare73]

Clare I am not sure if you realize this, but the quotes you have listed of mine is either myself quoting you or asking you a question and it does not reflect what I believe or have clearly stated. This seems a bit deceptive so hoping it was just an oversight on your end but should be corrected. Thanks

I can't change the exact words of your questions without misrepresenting you.

 

[Leaf473]

God's law written on the heart includes the law written by the finger of God the Ten Commandments. We will be judged by the Ten Commandments James 2:10-12 and breaking one of them is like breaking them all. I believe we have a just and faithful God whose will is that everyone would accept Him and His free gift of grace and it is not His will that anyone perish. Why would God not write the law on everyone's heart if that's the law we will be judged by? That doesn't sound like a God of love. Unfortunately many people harden their hearts to God's Truth and He is calling us to worship Him in Truth and Spirit, many people are only hearers of the Word and not doers and God wants us to be doers of His Word. James 1:22, Romans 2:13, Matthew 5:21-23, Revelation 22:14-15

If you follow our exchange back to post #193, I believe you will see that I ask you what is written on your heart, and to please give details.

You say the ten commandments are written on your heart. Okay... Is anything else written? If so, please give details, if you wish!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I can't change the exact words of your questions without misrepresenting you.

A question is not an expression of a opinion, you know this right? You claimed I made a statement, but than quoted me quoting you and asking you a question which is not the same as the opinion I expressed and was the opposite of my statements.

Take care.

 

[Clare73]

Clare:

I would really appreciate it if you would not micro-quote me.

For the sake of complete clarity, I high-light the specific point I choose to address in my response.

I won't do that to you, so I would appreciate it if you don't do that to me. Quoting me in mid-sentence changes the sentiment and context of my post. Not sure if that was by design, but I am going to assume it wasn't and just an honest mistake.

Are we trying to manufacture a grievance here because one does not like my method of addressing specific points?

With all due respect, I will not be altering my method of addressing specific points.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

For the sake of complete clarity, I high-light the specific point I choose to address in my response.

Are we trying to manufacture a grievance here because one does not like my method of addressing specific points?

With all due respect, I will not be altering my method of addressing specific points.

If you can’t see how micro-quoting me takes what I originally wrote out of context cutting it off mid-sentence, which is completely a false narrative. I will leave that between you and God.

I think we will have to agree to disagree and not sure it makes sense for me to continue to engage with someone who won’t respect this common decency, so I am bowing out of our conversations. God bless and take care.

 

[Clare73]

A question is not an expression of a opinion, you know this right?
You claimed I made a statement,

I don't remember doing that. . .would you point out where?

If you can’t see how micro-quoting me takes what I originally wrote out of context cutting it off mid-sentence, which is completely a false narrative. I will leave that between you and God.

I think we will have to agree to disagree and not sure it makes sense for me to continue to engage with someone who won’t respect this common decency, so
I am bowing out of our conversations. God bless and take care.

I think that is a good decision for you.

 

[expos4ever]

One on your claims in regards to God's 10 commandments not being referred to in Romans 3:20

I never claimed the 10 were not referred to in Romans 3:20.

I claimed (and argued) instead that the role of the law (and in particular the 10) in pointing out sin is now in the past.

A teaching of lawlessness (without law) is not biblical and is a false teaching according to the scriptures.

Who is advocating lawlessness? Certainly not moi. I believe I have never stated, or even remotely implied, that there are no laws to which we are subject.

I have simply been denying that we are subject to the Law of Moses, including the 10.

 

[expos4ever]

In fact according to the scriptures, Jesus taught us saying do not think I have come to destroy the law and the prophets in Matthew 5:17-20.

Let's see if you will answer these questions about this text:

Do you believe it is a coincidence that Jesus uses the same "end of the world" language to set a time when the Law will end as the Old Testament uses to describe events that have already occurred, well before the end of the world. For example, Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of use of “end of the world” imagery to describe much more “mundane” events that have, in fact, already taken place.

And do you think it is a mere coincidence that Jesus says that the law will not end until "all is accomplished" and then these are His last words:

"It is finished"

 

[expos4ever]

We should also keep in mind that according to the scriptures, Jesus and all the Apostles upheld and taught Gods' law.

It might seem that way on a superficial reading of the texts, but methinks that a careful reading tells a different story.

At first, a concession: Yes, Jesus does clearly instruct his contemporaries to follow the Law of Moses. And He explicitly tells them to follow the 10.

This seems like a devastating blow to the position I (and others) are advocating - that the 10 are now "retired".

But remember, Jesus affirms the 10 to his contemporaries. What if Jesus knows the Law has a expiration date that had not yet come?

That loophole (i.e. of an expiration date) seems to be quashed by that famous text in Matt 5 which so many here tirelessly repeat as evidence that if the Law indeed has an expiration date, that date corresponding to the end of time.

Well, not so fast. As I have repeatedly shown, there is compelling evidence that Jesus is speaking metaphorically, borrowing on established Biblical (and extra-Biblical) precedent. No one has actually engaged that argument and shown it to be wrong. Why is that, the neutral reader will wonder?

In fact, so my argument goes, we get a telling hint of when the real expiration date of the Law is:

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!

And what are Jesus's last words on cross?

"It is finished"

My opponents have to argue this is a coincidence. Well, is this, too, a coincidence?: (a) the lid of the ark of the covenant has an angel at either end; and (b) Jesus's followers find there is an angel at either end of the slab from which He arose on the 3rd day.

Let the reader decide if these "echoes" are mere coincidences or, instead, Scripture encoding key insights for our discovery.

More later - I will make the case that Jesus did not really uphold the Law - He hinted at its imminent retirement by breaking the Sabbath Law, challenge the purity laws (i.e. kosher laws about food), and refusing to follow the prescription of the Law relative to dealing with adulterers.