Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ How can God's Sabbath be a shadow law of anything when it points backwards as a "memorial" (Remember the Sabbath day - Exodus 20:8) to the finished work of creation *Exodus 20:11 and not forward to things to come? There was no sin and no plan of salvation given to mankind because there was no sin and no "shadow laws" that point forward to the coming of a Savior from sin because there was no sin *Genesis 2:1-3? There was only sinless Adam and Eve when God made the Sabbath for mankind *Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3 who were without sin and in no need of shadow laws of things to come pointing forward to the promised Savior from sin because the Sabbath was made when mankind was sinless. The Mosaic "shadow laws" were only given after the fall (sin) of mankind not before sin when the Sabbath was made for man. Therefore it is impossible for Gods' Sabbath to be a shadow law of anything because it points backwards and not forwards to the promised Saviour from sin. Your mixing up God's Mosaic "shadow laws" given after the fall of mankind with God's eternal laws that in the new covenant scriptures give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11.

Your response here...

How do you know it does not also point forward?

As shown from the post you are part quoting from the scriptures show that God's 4th commandment points backwards not forward and the Sabbath was made before sin not after sin. All the Shadow laws were made after sin and the fall of mankind.

[8] "Remember" the Sabbath day to keep it holy.... [11], For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. - Exodus 20:8; 11; compare Genesis 2:1-3

Gods' 4th commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) points backward to Genesis 2:1-3 and the finished work of creation to the "seventh day" of the week that God blessed and made a holy day of rest of all mankind.

Take Care.

 

[expos4ever]

One of the central themes of the New Testament is that Jesus is inaugurating a new creation. Remember, Jesus rises on the 8th day, effectively the first day of a new week! God is echoing the Genesis pattern!

Or is the fact that Jesus rises on the first day yet another coincidence, and not a message to us that God is undertaking a new creation and that the markers of the Old Covenant need to be set aside?

Why would we continue to honor the "old" creation? To do so is to effectively concede that we are not following the evolving redemption narrative and do not know where we "are" in that story.

 

[Leaf473]

How do you know it does not also point forward?

When Jesus says "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest", it seems pretty clear to me that He is declaring that He is "the new Sabbath".

You, I believe, are forced to say that we are "reading this connection in". Well, I politely suggest, this is another case of you guys having to make coincidences out of things that, to me anyway, seem like anything but coincidences. To wit:

1. When Jesus draws uses "end of the world" language to define when the Law will end, He is drawing on clear Jewish tradition (Biblical and extra-Bibical) of using such language metaphorically to refer to events that happen well before the "end of the world". You have to believe this is a coincidence.

2. When Jesus says the Law will come to an end "when all is accomplished" and then His last words are "it is finished", you have to believe, again, that this is a coincidence.

3. When Jesus says that He is the place we come to rest, you have to believe it is a coincidence that this has echoes of the Sabbath that suggests that, yes, He is the new Sabbath.

And then there is the matter that a solid case can be made that Jesus did even obey the Sabbath in the first place. More on this shortly.

Just another note on the metaphorical use of "heaven and Earth":

Twice in Deuteronomy Moses calls heaven and Earth as witnesses to what he is saying. He is not literally calling objects in the sky or the physical Earth. Nor is he calling all the beings in heaven and all the beings on Earth, e.g. humans living in Africa at that time.

 

[expos4ever]

As shown from the post you are part quoting from the scriptures show that God's 4th commandment point backwards not forward

I believe you are over-reaching - there is nothing in the 4th commandment that explicitly, or implicitly rules out the possibility that it may be later set aside.

the Sabbath was made before sin not after sin.

Please explain to us why this means that God cannot elect to "retire" the Sabbath as His plan for redemption unfolds.

It points back to Genesis 2:1-3 and the finished work of creation to the "seventh day" of the week that God blessed and made a holy day of rest of all mankind.

Finished work? Surely Scripture teaches us that God continued, and even now continues, to work in the world to redeem it.

If God's work was really finished on the 7th day, then you have to believe it is a massive coincidence that Jesus rises on the 1st day of a new week! To the Biblically literate Jew, this is a marker of, you guessed it, new creation.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Absolutely, we don't want "to believe our opinions are equal to the clear Word of God", nor "dismiss the many warnings of the scriptures".

If you change your mind and decide you would like to talk about the scriptures where the other laws are found, I'm interested!

I have talked scripture in most of my posts which you seem to not believe, so not sure it makes sense to continue sharing scriptures if we can't get past some of the easy stuff, like when Jesus says which commandments to keep for eternal life and directly quotes from the Ten Commandments Matthew 19:17-19 how that can be interpreted as all the laws ended at the cross, but we do have free will. God bless and take care.

 

[Leaf473]

I have talked scripture in most of my posts which you seem to not believe, so make sense to continue sharing scriptures if we can't get past some of the easy stuff, like when Jesus says which commandments to keep for eternal life and directly quotes from the Ten Commandments Matthew 19:17-19 how that can be interpreted as all the laws ended at the cross is beyond me, but we do have free will. God bless and take care.

I believe all the scriptures you have posted, and I agree that you have given lots of scripture references. I don't think you have given very many references for the other laws that you believe remain after the cross.

Jesus doesn't quote only from the ten commandments in that passage, he also quotes another law.

Bringing all the laws that relate to the thread topic to the table is a great way to move the discussion forward. That's why I encourage you to post additional scriptures.

May the Lord make his face shine on you!

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Hi AS, nice to see you again. Yes agreed, Jesus is indeed the Lord of the Sabbath. That is he has authority over the Sabbath because he is the creator of the Sabbath and all things in Heaven and earth *John 1:1-4; 14. He does indeed bid us come to rest in Him from sin and bids us to follow him because he is our Saviour from sin. Think it through though AS. How can God's Sabbath be a shadow law of anything when it points backwards as a "memorial" (Remember the Sabbath day - Exodus 20:8) to the finished work of creation *Exodus 20:11 and not forward to things to come? There was no sin and no plan of salvation given to mankind because there was no sin and no "shadow laws" that point forward to the coming of a Savior from sin because there was no sin *Genesis 2:1-3? There was only sinless Adam and Eve when God made the Sabbath for mankind *Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3 who were without sin and in no need of shadow laws of things to come pointing forward to the promised Savior from sin because the Sabbath was made when mankind was sinless. The Mosaic "shadow laws" were only given after the fall (sin) of mankind not before sin when the Sabbath was made for man. Therefore it is impossible for Gods' Sabbath to be a shadow law of anything because it points backwards and not forwards to the promised Saviour from sin. Your mixing up God's Mosaic "shadow laws" given after the fall of mankind with God's eternal laws that in the new covenant scriptures give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11.

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.

I must disagree that "the Sabbath doe not look forward". It obviously does. I am sorry you cannot see that in Christ.

You say that, "There was only sinless Adam and Eve when God made the Sabbath for mankind...who were without sin and in no need of shadow laws of things to come pointing forward to the promised Savior from sin because the Sabbath was made when mankind was sinless. The Mosaic "shadow laws" were only given after the fall (sin) of mankind not before sin when the Sabbath was made for man."

As I "think it through" as best I can and really look at the instructions give to Adam and Eve before the fall what I find is:


Genesis 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

Genesis 1:29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.


Genesis 2:15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Genesis 2:24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

If any laws are "universal" for all humanity, it would be these.
The Sabbath is named as sacred but there is no instruction, command or law about it until the time of Moses.

Or am I missing it? It does not become a law until then.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I believe all the scriptures you have posted, and I agree that you have given lots of scripture references. I don't think you have given very many references for the other laws that you believe remain after the cross.

Jesus doesn't quote only from the ten commandments in that passage, he also quotes another law.

Bringing all the laws that relate to the thread topic to the table is a great way to move the discussion forward. That's why I encourage you to post additional scriptures.

May the Lord make his face shine on you!

Yes, Jesus quotes from the greatest commandments in the law of Moses and directly from the Ten Commandments, which is a big difference than this statement.

Either way, though, the result is the same: the law ended at the cross.

At any rate, looks like we are back in circles so we can leave it again as agree to disagree. Take care.

 

[expos4ever]

....if we can't get past some of the easy stuff, like when Jesus says which commandments to keep for eternal life and directly quotes from the Ten Commandments Matthew 19:17-19 how that can be interpreted as all the laws ended at the cross is beyond me....

It is really quite simple.

Obvious fact: If someone quotes a law, that does not, by itself, mean that the law is in force. This is so obvious, it is beyond debate.

True, Jesus does instruct the people to whom He spoke to follow the 10.

We all know this - you are acting as if we are denying this. We are not denying this.

The point is this: there is ample scriptural evidence that the laws end with the cross and not before

It is therefore entirely consistent to believe that:

(a) Jesus instructed his contemporaries to follow the 10 since they remained in force at that time.

(b) The law ends at the cross.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, Jesus quotes from the greatest commandments in the law of Moses and directly from the Ten Commandments, which is a big difference than this statement.

Not at all. We don't keep all of the laws that Jesus told people to keep. That's the interesting lesson from Matthew 8 when Jesus cleanses a leper and tells him to take the offering that Moses commanded.

At any rate, looks like we are back in circles so we can leave it again as agree to disagree. Take care.

I don't see us us going circles, more like just stuck. Discussions are more interesting and edifying when they move forward. If you have a different suggestion about moving our discussion forward, I'm interested!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Not at all. We don't keep all of the laws that Jesus told people to keep. That's the interesting lesson from Matthew 8 when Jesus cleanses a leper and tells him to take the offering that Moses commanded.


I don't see us us going circles, more like just stuck. Discussions are more interesting and edifying when they move forward. If you have a different suggestion about moving our discussion forward, I'm interested!

I agree there are more laws, but because one might not know or understand all the laws, one should not disregard the laws that we know to keep, like the ones Jesus quoted from verbatim, which is still a big difference than "all the laws ended at the cross".

 

[expos4ever]

I agree there are more laws, but because one might not know or understand all the laws, one should not disregard the laws that we know to keep, like the ones Jesus quoted from verbatim, which is still a big difference than "all the laws ended at the cross".

Simple question: Is it conceivable that the 10 commandments were retired at the cross?

I am not asking what you believe the Bible teaches - I am asking you is it conceivable that God decided to end the 10 commandments at the cross?

 

[Leaf473]

It is really quite simple.

Obvious fact: If someone quotes a law, that does not, by itself, mean that the law is in force. This is so obvious, it is beyond debate.

True, Jesus does instruct the people to whom He spoke to follow the 10.

We all know this - you are acting as if we are denying this. We are not denying this.

The point is this: there is ample scriptural evidence that the laws end with the cross and not before

It is therefore entirely consistent to believe that:

(a) Jesus instructed his contemporaries to follow the 10 since they remained in force at that time.

(b) The law ends at the cross.

Yep, Jesus telling someone to do something doesn't mean that we do it today.

He also told his followers to carry weapons. Not something we have to do today.

 

[Leaf473]

I agree there are more laws, but because one might not know or understand all the laws, one should not disregard the laws that we know to keep, like the ones Jesus quoted from verbatim, which is still a big difference than "all the laws ended at the cross".

If you know what the other laws are, please talk about the scripture passages where they are found.

Or if you just want to start by saying about how many laws you keep today, that would be great!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Simple question: Is it conceivable that the 10 commandments were retired at the cross?

I am not asking what you believe the Bible teaches - I am asking you is it conceivable that God decided to end the 10 commandments at the cross?

Not if you want to follow scripture. The bible teaches we are to keep the commandments of God and that certainly includes the Ten Commandments and what we will be judged by. James 2:10-12

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Jesus kept the commandments as our example to follow John 15:10

I don't see the God of love ever telling His children it is okay to worship other gods, or bow down to idols, vain His holy name or break His holy Sabbath day. I don't see our God of love ever telling His children its okay to not honor our parents, commit adultery, covet, bear false witness, commit murder, or steal.

It is inconceivable because the law that God wrote with His own finger reflects the very character of God (scripture here ) and we are told to emulate Him. And I would have to take scissors to a lot of the scripture to make not keeping the commandments of God work, its a theme throughout the whole bible.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yep, Jesus telling someone to do something doesn't mean that we do it today.

He also told his followers to carry weapons. Not something we have to do today.

Why bother reading the scripture than if we are just going to ignore the teachings? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, its a honest question. According to my bible:

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

 

[expos4ever]

Not if you want to follow scripture....

You are not answering the question as posed. The way you have replied suggests that you are simply not open to an obvious truth: it is at least possible that God could have elected to bring the 10 to a close.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You are not answering the question as posed. The way you have replied suggests that you are simply not open to an obvious truth: it is at least possible that God could have elected to bring the 10 to a close.

No, I am not open to false teachings when the Word of God is pure and a light to our path. Psalms 119:105 Proverbs 30:5-6. We should never take the opinions of man over the Word of God.

To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20

 

[expos4ever]

okay to not honor our parents, commit adultery, covet, bear false witness, commit murder, or steal.

You continue to misrepresent other posters - to falsely attribute to us beliefs that we obviously do not hold.

Why are you doing this?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You continue to misrepresent other posters - to falsely attribute to us beliefs that we obviously do not hold.

Why are you doing this?

Either you believe in the law of God or you don't. God made those laws, not man. Exodus 20 You break one of these laws it is like breaking them all. James 2:10-12. You said you didn't need to keep these laws or any laws so my statement is accurate. Despite your personal opinion of doing or not doing these thing, it is still the law of God, that God wrote with His own finger.