Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[expos4ever]

6. "You shall not murder" (Romans 13:9).
8. "You shall not steal" (Romans 13:9).
9. "You shall not bear false witness" (Romans 13:9).

Textbook example of taking things out of context. Here is the relevant material with proper context:

Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law

You may not like it, but the concept of fulfillment can, repeat can, entail bringing something to an end: Meeting the woman of my dreams fulfills my dream of finding a partner. Do I keep on dating? Of course not!

There is substantial evidence that Paul sees the Law as something with a goal - that God instituted the Law, including the 10, to achieve a particular mission. When that goal / mission has been, yes, fulfilled, the law can be retired.

So "fulfilling" the Law can entail its retirement once the objective is reached. I suggest that Paul is saying this: one of the objectives of the Law was to get to the cross; with the accomplishments of the cross, and with Christ "in us", we can truly love and do not need to look to a law.

In other words, one of the goals of the Law was to get humanity to the place where it can truly love. So love is one of the goals of the law, and once the goal is reached, the Law can be set aside.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi SabbathBlessings,

Good to hear from you again!

We have discussed the theory of law keeping many times. Discussions about the theory can go on indefinitely.

If you would like to move our discussion forward, please say what laws you currently keep. If it's a lot, you could just talk about three or four to start with.

May the Lord bless you and keep you!

This is a different topic than the statement you made previously. Regarding your current post, we have discussed at length, so I don't have any thing further to add. Take care.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Textbook example of taking things out of context. Here is the relevant material with proper context:

Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law

You may not like it, but the concept of fulfillment can, repeat can, entail bringing something to an end: Meeting the woman of my dreams fulfills my dream of finding a partner. Do I keep on dating? Of course not!

There is substantial evidence that Paul sees the Law as something with a goal - that God instituted the Law, including the 10, to achieve a particular mission. When that goal / mission has been, yes, fulfilled, the law can be retired.

So "fulfilling" the Law can entail its retirement once the objective is reached. I suggest that Paul is saying this: one of the objectives of the Law was to get to the cross; with the accomplishments of the cross, and with Christ "in us", we can truly love and do not need to look to a law.

In other words, one of the goals of the Law was to get humanity to the place where it can truly love. So love is one of the goals of the law, and once the goal is reached, the Law can be set aside.

So are you suggesting Paul is teaching us that we can murder, steal and bear false witness, breaking God's commandments and this is love the opposite of what Jesus and God says Exodus 20:6, John 14:15 , Matthew 19:17-19, and John 1 John 5:3 and James James 2:10-12 ? really?

Fulfill means to fill-full the law. When I fulfill my marriage vows, does that mean I can go out and cheat on my spouse and commit adultery? Of course not. And this is not what Paul is teaching either and Paul makes clear what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19, not breaking them.

The bible does not support lawlessness (without law- God's law).

 

[Leaf473]

This is a different topic than the statement you made previously. Regarding your current post, we have discussed at length, so I don't have any thing further to add. Take care.

I agree that it's not the same as my post #158. But that post isn't addressed to anyone in particular.

As for the state of the discussion between you and me, I think the next step is for you to say which laws you keep. That will prevent us from having another long exchange which doesn't resolve anything imo.

But if you don't want to talk about the practical side of keeping the law, or if you don't want to talk about what laws you currently keep, that's fine. We will have successfully avoided another long, unresolving exchange.

May the Lord make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I agree that it's not the same as my post #158. But that post isn't addressed to anyone in particular.

As for the state of the discussion between you and me, I think the next step is for you to say which laws you keep. That will prevent us from having another long exchange which doesn't resolve anything imo.

But if you don't want to talk about the practical side of keeping the law, or if you don't want to talk about what laws you currently keep, that's fine. We will have successfully avoided another long, unresolving exchange.

May the Lord make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you.

Oh we have talked about it and talked about it now for close to two year, not sure there is more to say. Take care.

 

[Leaf473]

Oh we have talked about it and talked about it now for close to two year, not sure there is more to say. Take care.

I agree we've talked about the theory. I don't recall us talking in depth about very many of the laws you currently keep.

If we did and I missed it, please send me a link!

May the Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace!

(Isn't that a great word, Countenance )

 

[expos4ever]

The end of the earth will not happen until Jesus comes back, so the law remains....

You are not answering the question! Readers will see this!

By not answering the question, you are effectively saying that, yes, you choose to take Jesus literally when he connects the end of the law to "heaven and earth passing way", even though there is clear Biblical precedent of such language not being intended to be taken literally.

Likewise, you are effectively conceding that it is coincidence that Jesus' last words - "It is finished" - echo his statement where He says the Law will end when "all is accomplished".

 

[expos4ever]

You can not prove that Matthew 7:23 does not include the Commandments of God. Wouldn’t you rather place it safe?

If I really wanted to play it safe, I would be following all the Law of Moses, many of whose prescriptions would land me in the crowbar motel for a very long time.

No thank you.

I maintain that the evidence in this and other threads tilts overwhelmingly in the direction of asserting that we are to no longer look to the 10.

I will follow the evidence - I consider that to be "playing it safe"

not wanting to murder your neighbor or covet what they have, steal or lie, not honoring your parents- really what is the harm in keeping God’s commandments?

This is an outrageous distortion of my position.

Please stop misrepresenting what I have posted. Nothing, repeat nothing that I have posted would lead a reasonable person to conclude that I would in any way countenance murder, lying, or not honouring parents.

Readers will know that this is not my position at all. Yet you continue to hammer away on this misrepresentation.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If I really wanted to play it safe, I would be following all the Law of Moses, many of whose prescriptions would land me in the crowbar motel for a very long time.

No thank you.

I maintain that the evidence in this and other threads tilts overwhelmingly in the direction of asserting that we are to no longer look to the 10.

I will follow the evidence - I consider that to be "playing it safe"


This is an outrageous distortion of my position.

Please stop misrepresenting what I have posted. Nothing, repeat nothing that I have posted would lead a reasonable person to conclude that I would in any way countenance murder, lying, or not honouring parents.

Readers will know that this is not my position at all. Yet you continue to hammer away on this misrepresentation.

When you keep making statements that God’s Ten Commandments are “retired” or we are “released” from the law, that means we don’t have to obey the law, which means we are free to break these commandments including lying, murder, not honoring our parents. This is all part of the commandments of God, and God is the one who has given us all laws. So no, its not a misrepresentation when these are your words.

There is substantial evidence that Paul sees the Law as something with a goal - that God instituted the Law, including the 10, to achieve a particular mission. When that goal / mission has been, yes, fulfilled, the law can be retired

I don’t think when God, Jesus or the disciples who all say we are to KEEP the commandments of God which is repeated throughout the whole bible, that their interpretation means it’s “retired”.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You are not answering the question! Readers will see this!

By not answering the question, you are effectively saying that, yes, you choose to take Jesus literally when he connects the end of the law to "heaven and earth passing way", even though there is clear Biblical precedent of such language not being intended to be taken literally.

Likewise, you are effectively conceding that it is coincidence that Jesus' last words - "It is finished" - echo his statement where He says the Law will end when "all is accomplished".

Where there is no law there is no sin. Romans 4:15 If you think we live in a world that is sinless you might consider reading the news and looking around you. Crime and lawlessness is up everywhere. We are all accountable for our sin for those who have not repented and turn from sin to walk in Christ in obedience to His commandments. John 14:15-18, James 2:10-12 Hebrews 10:26-30

 

[expos4ever]

When you keep making statements that God’s Ten Commandments are “retired” or we are “released” from the law, that means we don’t have to obey the law, which means we are free to break these commandments including lying, murder, not honoring our parents.

This is not correct, although this faulty reasoning certainly supports your overall position.

Let's go through this again. It is punishingly obvious that I do not need a written list of "do's and don'ts" if God has been gracious enough to send His Spirit to live within me and direct me in my actions. What does Paul think?

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter

But let's suppose I do not some "external" instructions. I can coherently argue that I listen to Jesus, not the 10. Yes, for the zillionth time, we all know that Jesus quotes the 10, praises the 10, and even tells His contemporaries to follow the 10.

However, none of this requires to conclude the 10 are still in force. And since a lot of ink has already been spilt about this in this thread, I see no point in repeating the supporting arguments again.

 

[expos4ever]

Where there is no law there is no sin. Romans 4:15 If you think we live in a world that is sinless you might consider reading the news and looking around you. Crime and lawlessness is up everywhere. We are all accountable for our sin for those who have not repented and turn from sin to walk in Christ in obedience to His commandments. John 14:15-18, James 2:10-12 Hebrews 10:26-30

You keep evading. For at least the third time: is it a coincidence that Jesus' last words - "It is finished" - echo his statement where He says the Law will end when "all is accomplished"?

Please just answer this particular question with a "yes" or a "no".

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This is not correct, although this faulty reasoning certainly supports your overall position.

Let's go through this again. It is punishingly obvious that I do not need a written list of "do's and don'ts" if God has been gracious enough to send His Spirit to live within me and direct me in my actions. What does Paul think?

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter

But let's suppose I do not some "external" instructions. I can coherently argue that I listen to Jesus, not the 10. Yes, for the zillionth time, we all know that Jesus quotes the 10, praises the 10, and even tells His contemporaries to follow the 10.

However, none of this requires to conclude the 10 are still in force. And since a lot of ink has already been spilt about this in this thread, I see no point in repeating the supporting arguments again.

It’s the same argument that you think your opinion is as equal to the scriptures. When God and Jesus say from their own mouth we are to keep the commandments of God and is repeated throughout scripture, I am going to believe our Creator over the opinions of man.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You keep evading. For at least the third time: is it a coincidence that Jesus' last words - "It is finished" - echo his statement where He says the Law will end when "all is accomplished"?

Please just answer this particular question with a "yes" or a "no".

“It is finished” does not say or mean- all the laws have ended and now we are free to sin. You are adding your words, to the scripture and I would advise not doing that. Proverbs 30:5-6

 

[guevaraj]

It is punishingly obvious that I do not need a written list of "do's and don'ts" if God has been gracious enough to send His Spirit to live within me and direct me in my actions. What does Paul think? But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter

Brother, happy Sabbath! Jesus clarifies below what Paul says above. If love were a simple circle drawn on a page, before Jesus we were mainly told about the boundary of the circle in the oldness of the letter in the ten commandments. What actions would put us outside the circle by the commandments that tell us what not to do, while Jesus shows us how to fill the circle by following His example in what He did throughout His life and how He did God's work in His ministry. The additional eleventh commandment by Jesus fills the circle with the "one thing you haven't done" in newness of the Spirit, reminding us of the exemplary life of Jesus. While the previous ten mainly prevented us from crossing the boundary of the circle to stay within the circle, Jesus' life in the form of stories shows us how to fill the circle in how He lived His life and how He went about doing His ministry.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Clare73]

So are you suggesting Paul is teaching us that we can murder, steal and bear false witness, breaking God's commandments and this is love the opposite of what Jesus and God says Exodus 20:6, John 14:15 , Matthew 19:17-19, and John 1 John 5:3 and James James 2:10-12 ? really?

Strawman. . .

In the new covenant, the law is written on the heart (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10),
which is why love is the fulfillment of the law,
why he who loves has thereby fulfilled the law (Romans 13:8-10),
because the law is now governing his heart, he no longer needs an external written code to
know how to obey the law.

It's not complicated. . .

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Strawman. . .

In the new covenant, the law is written on the heart (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10),
which is why love is the fulfillment of the law,
why he who loves has thereby fulfilled the law (Romans 13:8-10),
because the law is now governing his heart, he no longer needs an external written code to
know how to obey the law.

It's not complicated. . .

You’re right its not complicated, so does it mean love in our hearts obeys God and keeps the commandments of God or disobeys Him and breaks them? I’m going with the answer God, Jesus and the apostles gives us. Exodus 20:6. John 14:15, James 2:10-12. Matthew 5:17-30, Matthew 19:17-19, 1 John 5:3, Revelation 14:15. This isn’t difficult, it is spelled out for us!

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. 1 John 5:3

If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15

Showing mercy to thousands who love Me and keep My commandments. Exodus 20:6

What is the opposite of love? What happens when you do not keep the commandments? John has some pretty honest words:

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.


The scriptures does not teach lawlessness and fulfill does not mean “done away with” the opposite of what Jesus tells us Matthew 5:17-30 so we don’t need to obey - from the mouth of our Savior, if you love Me, keep My commandments. I’m still sticking with scriptures, but we have free will to believe what we want. Let’s pray when Jesus comes we don’t say to Him. Lord Lord and He repeats what He promised in Matthew 7:21-23. We have time to change our path now, but we might not always have that opportunity to repent and turn from sin to walk in Christ in obedience to Him. Take care.

 

[Clare73]

You’re right its not complicated, so does it mean love in our hearts obeys God and keeps the commandments of God or disobeys Him and breaks them?

It means love is the source of obedience to the commandments.

The law is now written on the heart (Jeremiah 31:33) where love resides, it's not just in one's head,
which is why love is the fullness of the law, when the law is written on the heart which loves,
why he who loves has thereby fulfilled the law (Romans 13:8-10), written on the heart which loves,
because the law is now governing his heart,
he no longer needs an external written code to know how to obey the law written on his heart.

It's not complicated. . .

This is the new covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It means love is the source of obedience to the commandments.

The law is now written on the heart (Jeremiah 31:33) where love resides, it's not just in one's head,
which is why love is the fullness of the law, when the law is written on the heart which loves,
why he who loves has thereby fulfilled the law (Romans 13:8-10), written on the heart which loves,
because the law is now governing his heart,
he no longer needs an external written code to know how to obey the law written on his heart.

It's not complicated. . .

Does love (the source) obey God or disobey God? Love obeys according to God, Jesus and the apostles and this IS the love of God, that we keep His commandments. 1 John 5:3

Are you claiming once the Spirit guides us in Truth and obedience and as soon as we do that we can fall and become disobedient to God and break His commandments? The point of the New Covenant is to have a heart transformation- we keep the commandments because we love God, its really that simple and honestly a bit shocking people would argue with this. Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to obey the commandments and to those who obey. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32, Acts 2:38

According to clear scriptures God’s saints keeps the commandments of God and faith in Jesus Revelation 14:12. God’s saints are the saved ones, so if this is a fruit of a saved person, I think God really means what He says when He tells us if we love Him, we will keep the commandments and not break them. We all have free will to test this theory though. It’s a lot a stake and His commandments are not burdensome 1 John 5:3.

Take care.

 

[Clare73]

Does love (the source) obey God or disobey God? Love obeys according to God, Jesus and the apostles and this IS the love of God, that we keep the commandments of God. 1 John 5:3

Strawman. . .it's not about obeying or disobeying.

It's only about obeying, and the source of obedience being either an external written code, or an internal inscription on the heart which no longer requires an external written code.

It's not complicated. . .