Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[expos4ever]

Let's talk about Matthew 5 again even though this has been addressed time and time again.

Those who argue that the law remains in force often appeal to Matt 5, especially this:

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law......

How can those of us who believe the Law has come to an end justify our position in light of this text?

Easily, it turns out.

Here is the fact that is conveniently overlooked by those who believe the Law remains: there is clear Biblical precedent for metaphorical use of such "end-of-the-world" language to refer to socio-political change that does not, repeat does not, entail heaven and earth passing away.

There are also examples in extra-Biblical Jewish writing.

This is a fact. And it is routinely, and of course conveniently overlooked by those who use Matt 5 to defend the position that the Law remains in force.

 

[ralliann]

We just "pay attention to the details" where Heb 10 tells us that at the cross those sacrifices and offerings end and Heb 7 tells us the Levitical priesthood ended.

Jesus did not say "animal sacrifices can only end when the sky vanishes" nor did He say that about the Levitical priesthood.

Jer 33:20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.

22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

 

[Leaf473]

Continued from post 889 over here

Why the weekly Sabbath (Saturday) is the Lord's Day, in the Bible

I think it's related to the OP. One idea there is that the Bible says that the weekly Sabbath is Saturday, but the Catholic Church - without God's approval - changed the primary day of rest and worship to Sunday. Later churches followed their lead. But if all authentic Christians have the...

www.christianforums.com

The question was do all the instructions in the Old Testament point to Jesus, or just certain ones?

Bible Gateway passage: John 5:39 - New International Reader's Version

You study the Scriptures carefully. You study them because you think they will give you eternal life. The Scriptures you study are a witness about me.

www.biblegateway.com

Which scriptures were the Jewish leaders studying? All of them, I assume. So, all those scriptures are witness about Jesus. Witnesses point at things. All the scriptures that the Jewish leaders were studying point to Jesus.

 

[Gary K]

Continued from post 889 over here

Why the weekly Sabbath (Saturday) is the Lord's Day, in the Bible

I think it's related to the OP. One idea there is that the Bible says that the weekly Sabbath is Saturday, but the Catholic Church - without God's approval - changed the primary day of rest and worship to Sunday. Later churches followed their lead. But if all authentic Christians have the...

www.christianforums.com

The question was do all the instructions in the Old Testament point to Jesus, or just certain ones?

Bible Gateway passage: John 5:39 - New International Reader's Version

You study the Scriptures carefully. You study them because you think they will give you eternal life. The Scriptures you study are a witness about me.

www.biblegateway.com

Which scriptures were the Jewish leaders studying? All of them, I assume. So, all those scriptures are witness about Jesus. Witnesses point at things. All the scriptures that the Jewish leaders were studying point to Jesus.

Your answer confuses me. How does the NT point forward to Jesus? And how do laws that specifically pointed the Israelites/.Jews to look forward to Jesus apply to us? Do you still offer a lamb as a sacrifiece for your sins?

 

[Leaf473]

Your answer confuses me. How does the NT point forward to Jesus?

It's the Old Testament that points forward to Jesus.

And how do laws that specifically pointed the Israelites/.Jews to look forward to Jesus apply to us?

I don't think they do apply to us. Does Jesus say that only some of the Old Testament witnesses to him? The Jewish leaders were studying all of the scriptures, I'm pretty sure. It's all of those scriptures that point to Jesus.

Do you still offer a lamb as a sacrifiece for your sins?

No. Now, if we continue talking, the issue I'll bring up is how you separate the instructions that ended from the ones that didn't. I don't think there's a way to do it that is both reasonable and complete

 

[Gary K]

It's the Old Testament that points forward to Jesus.


I don't think they do apply to us. Does Jesus say that only some of the Old Testament witnesses to him? The Jewish leaders were studying all of the scriptures, I'm pretty sure. It's all of those scriptures that point to Jesus.


No. Now, if we continue talking, the issue I'll bring up is how you separate the instructions that ended from the ones that didn't. I don't think there's a way to do it that is both reasonable and complete

Now your saying what I did when you disagreed with me. Go back and read your post I replied to with "huh?".

 

[Leaf473]

Now your saying what I did when you disagreed with me. Go back and read your post I replied to with "huh?".

Well...

Everything except those laws that point to Christ's first advent as those just naturally no longer apply since He already came.

That's all of the scriptures, isn't it?

Huh? Just where do you get that idea?

So the issue is which instructions from the Old Testament apply to us. You say everything except those laws that point to Christ's first advent.

All of the Old Testament points to Jesus, doesn't it? So we keep everything except what points to Jesus... And everything points to Jesus.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 10:43 - New American Standard Bible

All the prophets testify of Him, that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

www.biblegateway.com

 

[pasifika]

Well...





So the issue is which instructions from the Old Testament apply to us. You say everything except those laws that point to Christ's first advent.

All of the Old Testament points to Jesus, doesn't it? So we keep everything except what points to Jesus... And everything points to Jesus.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 10:43 - New American Standard Bible

All the prophets testify of Him, that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

www.biblegateway.com

This is interesting..

 

[Gary K]

Well...





So the issue is which instructions from the Old Testament apply to us. You say everything except those laws that point to Christ's first advent.

All of the Old Testament points to Jesus, doesn't it? So we keep everything except what points to Jesus... And everything points to Jesus.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 10:43 - New American Standard Bible

All the prophets testify of Him, that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

www.biblegateway.com

So your argument is that nothing in the OT needs to be obeyed? OK. You believe what you want to believe. I cannot change your mind and have no desire to. I just want to present truth just like Jesus did and leave it up to the hearer to accept or reject like He did..

 

[BobRyan]

Let's talk about Matthew 5 again even though this has been addressed time and time again.

Those who argue that the law remains in force often appeal to Matt 5, especially this:

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law......

How can those of us who believe the Law has come to an end justify our position in light of this text?

Good question , particularly in light of the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 where the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - the law that "defines what sin is" 1 John 3:4 even in the NT - is "written on heart and mind"

Jeremiah would have known that "God spoke these ten commandments... and added NO MORE" Deut 5:22 - meant that the TEN are most certainly INCLUDED in what is called "The Law of God" written on the heart.

The one where as Paul says in Eph 6:2 - "the first commandment with a promise is 'Honor your father and mother'"

So no wonder Paul writes "what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
no wonder John writes "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
And John writes "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His commandments" 1 John 5:3


"do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLiSH the Law" Rom 3:31

 

[BABerean2]

And John writes "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His commandments" 1 John 5:3

"His commandments" are found below in chapter 3 of the same letter.


1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


.

 

[Leaf473]

So your argument is that nothing in the OT needs to be obeyed? OK. You believe what you want to believe. I cannot change your mind and have no desire to. I just want to present truth just like Jesus did and leave it up to the hearer to accept or reject like He did..

Nothing needs to be obeyed literally, to the letter. It all needs to be followed in principle

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, God's word does not return to him void.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:17 - New International Reader's Version

Jesus Fulfills the Law - “Do not think I have come to get rid of what is written in the Law or in the Prophets. I have not come to do this. Instead, I have come to fulfill what is written.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

Nothing needs to be obeyed literally, to the letter. It all needs to be followed in principle

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, God's word does not return to him void.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:17 - New International Reader's Version

Jesus Fulfills the Law - “Do not think I have come to get rid of what is written in the Law or in the Prophets. I have not come to do this. Instead, I have come to fulfill what is written.

www.biblegateway.com

OK. So you believe following something in principle means violating the actual instructionss. It's not my job to change your mind as that's waaaay above my pay grade.

 

[Leaf473]

OK. So you believe following something in principle means violating the actual instructionss. It's not my job to change your mind as that's waaaay above my pay grade.

I think that's what Jesus is getting at here

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 12:5-6 - New International Reader's Version

Haven’t you read the Law? It tells how every Sabbath day the priests in the temple have to do their work on that day. But they are not considered guilty. I tell you that something more important than the temple is here.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

(Pasted in from a different thread where we're talking about something very similar)

Sigh. But that is the basis of what you said as you believe that love fulfills the 10 commandments.

I don't think it is the basis. Let's take it one step at a time

Is this an acceptable translation?

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:14 - New American Standard Bible

For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

www.biblegateway.com

So I ask, is it love to not do what God tells us to do as you just said that we want to follow what David said?

We want to do all of what God said, so let's discuss what God said

I'm baffled by such a dichotomy of thought. I like you but I'm baffled.

Thanks and that's a good basis for discussion.

 

[Gary K]

I think that's what Jesus is getting at here

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 12:5-6 - New International Reader's Version

Haven’t you read the Law? It tells how every Sabbath day the priests in the temple have to do their work on that day. But they are not considered guilty. I tell you that something more important than the temple is here.

www.biblegateway.com

I'm sorry, but that is a highly legalistic opinion to infer from Jesus comment on the work of priests. For your opinion on that to be true you must believe it is a sin for ministers to preach on Sabbath or Sunday.

 

[Gary K]

(Pasted in from a different thread where we're talking about something very similar)

I don't think it is the basis. Let's take it one step at a time

Is this an acceptable translation?

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:14 - New American Standard Bible

For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

www.biblegateway.com

We want to do all of what God said, so let's discuss what God said


Thanks and that's a good basis for discussion.

Yes that is a good translation. I'm not a KJV only believer. But my Windows 11 does not work well with my e-Bible software, e-sword, so I'm missing all the translations except for the KJV.

For your opinion on the Sabbath to be valid you must think it's ok to lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, worship idols etc... which I know you do not believe

 

[Leaf473]

I'm sorry, but that is a highly legalistic opinion to infer from Jesus comment on the work of priests. For your opinion on that to be true you must believe it is a sin for ministers to preach on Sabbath or Sunday.

Well, if a person wants to believe that the letter of the law must be followed, and if the letter of the law says no work, and if preaching is work, then yes, it would be sin.

I think that's what Jesus is getting at, it's the principle that's to be followed, not the letter. Look for the way in which it benefits humans, because the Sabbath is made for humans.

But again, the entire law is fulfilled by loving our neighbors as ourselves, which again points to the principle behind the law, not to the letters imo.

 

[Leaf473]

For your opinion on the Sabbath to be valid you must think it's ok to lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, worship idols etc... which I know you do not believe

No, I don't think that follows. Would you be willing to break down the steps you went through to arrive at that conclusion?

 

[Gary K]

No, I don't think that follows. Would you be willing to break down the steps you went through to arrive at that conclusion?

I see only a single step. You say you believe the 10 commandments apply to you apply to you except for the 4th commandment, therefore you don't really believe the others should be applicable either. That's a one step process. It's impossible for me to see it any other way.