Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[SabbathBlessings]

Christ amplifies this commandment by saying you will be judged for every careless word you speak. Everyone says careless words, right?

I think this means when we speak against Christ- which could mean speaking harmful things to our neighbor or speaking directly against Christ.

Jesus tells us those who teach other the least of the commandments and then directly quotes some of the Ten Commandments Matthew 5:19-30, yet most churches teach we no longer need to keep God's Ten Commandments, these are very careless words to say the least.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

My understanding of this, which I will also tell @SabbathBlessings, is that if the same commandment is not in the NT then we do not need to follow them. There are many Laws in the Torah which are meant to separate the nation of Israel from the surrounding nations (which they largely did not do. See King Josiah for details).

In any case, I had no idea what SDA was based on. I used to just think you guys were just a bunch of legalistic folks, but I have a different perspective now.

All of God's Commandments are repeated in the New Testament. God writes His laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Hebrews 10:16, Hebrews 8:10 written in the heart to obey by love 1 John 5:3, John 14:15, written in the mind so we are doers of God's Word, not just hearers James 1:22, Revelation 22:14

The Law of God in the New Testament.
1. "You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Matthew 4:10).
2. "Little children, keep yourselves from idols" (1 John 5:21). "Since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising" (Acts 17:29).
3. "That the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed" (1 Timothy 6:1).
4. "He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works.' There remains therefore a Sabbath rest ["keeping of a sabbath," margin] for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His" (Hebrews 4:4, 9, 10).
Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
5. "Honor your father and your mother" (Matthew 19:19).
6. "You shall not murder" (Romans 13:9).
7. "You shall not commit adultery" (Matthew 19:18).
8. "You shall not steal" (Romans 13:9).
9. "You shall not bear false witness" (Romans 13:9).
10. "You shall not covet" (Romans 7:7).

The Law of God in the Old Testament.
1. "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).
2. "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments" (Exodus 20:4–6).
3. "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain" (Exodus 20:7).
4. "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it" (Exodus 20:8–11).
5. "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you" (Exodus 20:12).
6. "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13).
7. "You shall not commit adultery" (Exodus 20:14).
8. "You shall not steal" (Exodus 20:15).
9. "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" (Exodus 20:16).
10. "You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's" (Exodus 20:17).

 

[All Becomes New]

If you are willing to include such a loose non-quote of the commandment as "the commandment quoted in the NT" then Sabbath is quoted all over the NT as "Love God with all your heart" Matt 22 and "if you Love Me keep My Commandment" John 14:15. Notice that "Love Me and keep My commandments" is also in the TEN.,

Sure, but take a look at all of the places where Christ says, "But I say to you..." where he amplifies the Law. It's all over the Gospels. What I am saying isn't difficult to see.

Christ also said, "The sabbath was made for man," and "which of you whose ox falls in a ditch on the sabbath will not get it out." I take this to mean the day of the Sabbath doesn't really matter.

 

[All Becomes New]

All of God's Commandments are repeated in the New Testament. God writes His laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Hebrews 10:16, Hebrews 8:10 written in the heart to obey by love 1 John 5:3, John 14:15, written in the mind so we are doers of God's Word, not just hearers James 1:22, Revelation 22:14

The Law of God in the New Testament.
1. "You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Matthew 4:10).
2. "Little children, keep yourselves from idols" (1 John 5:21). "Since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising" (Acts 17:29).
3. "That the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed" (1 Timothy 6:1).
4. "He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works.' There remains therefore a Sabbath rest ["keeping of a sabbath," margin] for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His" (Hebrews 4:4, 9, 10).
Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
5. "Honor your father and your mother" (Matthew 19:19).
6. "You shall not murder" (Romans 13:9).
7. "You shall not commit adultery" (Matthew 19:18).
8. "You shall not steal" (Romans 13:9).
9. "You shall not bear false witness" (Romans 13:9).
10. "You shall not covet" (Romans 7:7).

The Law of God in the Old Testament.
1. "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).
2. "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments" (Exodus 20:4–6).
3. "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain" (Exodus 20:7).
4. "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it" (Exodus 20:8–11).
5. "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you" (Exodus 20:12).
6. "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13).
7. "You shall not commit adultery" (Exodus 20:14).
8. "You shall not steal" (Exodus 20:15).
9. "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" (Exodus 20:16).
10. "You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's" (Exodus 20:17).

I have no problem keeping the Ten Commandments. I just have a problem with forcing all the other 600+ commandments on people.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Sure, but take a look at all of the places where Christ says, "But I say to you..." where he amplifies the Law. It's all over the Gospels. What I am saying isn't difficult to see.

Christ also said, "The sabbath was made for man,"

Christ said the Sabbath was made for man- not Jew or Gentile "man"

Man was created on the sixth day Genesis 1:26 before the very first Sabbath spent in the presence of God. Genesis 2:1-3

and "which of you whose ox falls in a ditch on the sabbath will not get it out." I take this to mean the day of the Sabbath doesn't really matter.

Jesus was teaching it is okay to do good on the Sabbath, not we don't need to keep the Sabbath. Jesus kept the Sabbath His whole life as our example to follow. Luk 4:16, John 15:10, 1 John 2:6

The Pharisees were adding lots of laws to God's commandments and jesus was teaching them it is okay to do good on the Sabbath. We have a God of love, how cruel would it be to leave on ox in a ditch suffering on the Sabbath, its okay to do good on the Sabbath, this is the message Jesus was teaching, not we can break on of God's holy commandments.

 

[All Becomes New]

The Pharisees were adding lots of laws to God's commandments and jesus was teaching them it is okay to do good on the Sabbath. We have a God of love, how cruel would it be to leave on ox in a ditch suffering on the Sabbath, its okay to do good on the Sabbath, this is the message Jesus was teaching, not we can break on of God's holy commandments.

The Sabbath is a day of rest. I know you know this. So, how much work is it to get an ox out of a ditch?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I have no problem keeping the Ten Commandments. I just have a problem with forcing all the other 600+ commandments on people.

God separated the Ten Commandments by design from the other laws. The Ten Commandments is what points our sin Romans 7:7, the other laws were added because of sin (after the fall) Galatians 3:19

God personally wrote the Ten Commandments by His own finger on stone Exodus 31:18, Exodus 32:16, Moses wrote all the other laws in a book on paper. Deut 31:24, 2 Chr 35:12.

God's Ten Commandments was placed inside the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple where He dwells under His mercy seat Exodus 40:20. The law of Moses was placed outside the ark Deut 31:26. The Ten Commandments are not grievous 1 John 5:3 and reflects the very character of God- love, peace, righteous. Some of the law of Moses contained curses Deut 29:20-21 and is contrary and temporary Col 2:14

God Ten Commandments are eternal. Revelation 11:19 Matthew 5:17-19

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Sabbath is a day of rest. I know you know this. So, how much work is it to get an ox out of a ditch?

We are to do the ways of the Lord Isaiah 58:13 on His Sabbath day and if you happen to see an animal in distress, it is not a sin to help according to Jesus. It's not like its something that happens often. We are allowed to do good on the Sabbath. The main purpose of the Sabbath is to keep the day holy Exodus 20:8 a day to honor God. Isaiah 58:13 we honor God by helping an animal in distress, so they doesn't suffer, just like its okay to help the sick and needy on the Sabbath day by witnessing or providing food.

Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? Matthew 6:26

 

[All Becomes New]

We are to do the ways of the Lord Isaiah 58:13 on His Sabbath day and if you happen to see an animal in distress, it is not a sin to help according to Jesus. It's not like its something that happens often. We are allowed to do good on the Sabbath. The main purpose of the Sabbath is to keep the day holy Exodus 20:8 a day to honor God. Isaiah 58:13 we honor God by helping an animal in distress, so they doesn't suffer, just like its okay to help the sick and needy on the Sabbath day by witnessing or providing food.

Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? Matthew 6:26

I would say justice and mercy are the weightier matters of the Law, even though they are not in the ten commandments.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I would say justice and mercy are the weightier matters of the Law, even though they are not in the ten commandments.

Obedience to God is a weightier matter, it is what separated man from God in the first place. God is just and would not give us righteous commandments Psalms 119:172 because of injustice. Obedience is through faith and trusting what He asks of us because He knows it's for our own good. Psalms 19:7. God said right in the Ten Commandments Exodus 20: 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. It's what we will be judged by James 2:10-12 so it is a weightier matter.

 

[expos4ever]

1 Cor 7:19 "circumcision does not matter - but what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

The details matter.

Heb 10 informs us that animal sacrifice and offering laws end at the cross - yet Eph 6:1-2 reminds us that the moral laws such as the TEN in the case of Eph 6 - still apply

About 1 Cor 7:19: I do not see how this text in any way supports retaining any part of the Law. Why not? Because, I suggest, there is a clear conceptual distinction between the "Law", which is really the Law of Moses, on the one hand, and "the commandments of God", on the other. The former is a code of behaviour and practices that was given to the Jews and Jews alone to mark them out from the Gentile. It's time came to an end at the Cross. The latter are the commandments that God gives to all humanity, not just just the Jews. People need to understand that that the "Law of Moses" was a kind of national charter for Jews and only Jews. Analogy: I am not an American so I am not under American law. Assuming that American law prohibits murder, I am not subject to that particular law - it simply does not apply to me. Does that mean I am free to murder? Of course not. Even if Canadian law did not prohibit murder (which it obviously does), my conscience and empathy would compel me to not murder. This is why the "if the Law is done away with, you are saying it is ok to murder" argument is so flawed - it fails to recognize that we do not need a particular moral code to tell us that murder is wrong - we can know it is wrong from the testimony of the indwelling Spirit, of course.

Yes, Paul quotes the Law of Moses in Eph 6 and exhorts us to follow its moral tenets. But that does not mean the Law of Moses is still in force with respect to morality. Again an analogy - I, as a Canadian, could tell my fellow Canadians to not murder and quote American law as a supporting argument. But that does not mean that American law is in effect for me.

 

[All Becomes New]

Obedience to God is a weightier matter, it is what separated man from God in the first place. God is just and would not give us righteous commandments Psalms 119:172 because of injustice. Obedience is through faith and trusting what He asks of us because He knows it's for our own good. Psalms 19:7. God said right in the Ten Commandments Exodus 20: 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. It's what we will be judged by James 2:10-12 so it is a weightier matter.

Obedience without a love for the one you are obeying means nothing. You've essentially given me a non-answer.

Matthew 23:23–24 CSB17
““Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You pay a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, and yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These things should have been done without neglecting the others. Blind guides! You strain out a gnat, but gulp down a camel!”

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Obedience without a love for the one you are obeying means nothing. You've essentially given me a non-answer.

Matthew 23:23–24 CSB17
““Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You pay a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, and yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These things should have been done without neglecting the others. Blind guides! You strain out a gnat, but gulp down a camel!”

I don't think so, and I never said we should not have obedience to God without love. It's in my signatures.

 

[Leaf473]

Jesus did not teach us to obey God's commandments which He kept His whole life as our example to follow John 15:10, 2 John 2:6 so the moment He Sacrificed Himself we can sin freely. There would be no need for Jesus to Sacrifice Himself if sin was okay. Jesus came to save us from sin Matthew 1:21 not in them. There will never be a time when we can freely sin and break God's commandments as we are told those who do there remains no more sacrifice for them. Hebrews 10:26-30

Jesus promised at His Second Coming that those who do not do the will of the Father in Heaven and practice lawlessness (without law) will not be there. Matthew 7:21-23

and in contrast...

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him

God loves us so much He gives us these warnings so we can change our path before its too late. If one does not want to keep the commandments of God, there is a love to God issue. If we earnestly pray to God and ask to change our heart from stone to flesh, we can change our thinking through the power of Jesus Christ. For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3
Psalms 40: 8I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.”

That's right, we want to keep all of God's commandments and instructions!

Well, the ones that still apply today, of course. Which brings us around to the thread title,
Did all the laws end at the cross

We both agree that at least some laws ended.

@BobRyan and I have agreed that at least some parts of the law have passed from it. (Did I get that right, Bob?)

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Matthew 5 NKJV

If you're interested in answering, do you agree that at least some parts have passed from the law?

Peace be with you.

 

[Leaf473]

But I rely on scripture for that - you don't.
scripture actually points to animal sacrifice and offerings ending at the cross Heb 10:4-12

But no text points to 'do not take God's name in vain" ending because air is gone and the planet has been destroyed. You seem to be wayy out on a limb at that point.

Well, maybe we can clear that up, and come to an agreement.

The first step, I think, is for you to say which of these conditions were met:
...until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.

The eternal God is your refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.

Deuteronomy 33 NIV

 

[Leaf473]

No -- as both Peter and John affirm - earth and heaven are still here - and anyone who looks out of their window can see it.

You keep saying thing that don't make sense -- and then when responded to - claim those quotes are not from you.. very odd.

for example this sequence





hint: point to an actual detail in that post you are responding to - that makes your case for that statement.

I agree that the physical Heaven and Earth are still here.

But we have to have some way of saying one or both of the conditions for things passing away from the law have been met.

When you're ready to post your explanation, I'm interested!

 

[BobRyan]

I agree that the physical Heaven and Earth are still here.

Well then we agree on something.

And I am certain that John is correct (and so also Peter in 2 Peter 3) when he says in Rev 21 that the first heaven and earth get consumed in that lake of fire. "The elements melt with fervent heat".

I am also certain Jesus knew this had not happened yet - in Matt 5.

But we have to have some way of saying one or both of the conditions for things passing away from the law have been met.

We just "pay attention to the details" where Heb 10 tells us that at the cross those sacrifices and offerings end and Heb 7 tells us the Levitical priesthood ended.

Jesus did not say "animal sacrifices can only end when the sky vanishes" nor did He say that about the Levitical priesthood.

The Word of God that STANDS is the one informing us about those laws and the fact that they ended at the cross.

Some laws are "predictive" ending when the event they point to - happens.
Other laws are "prescriptive" - defining what sin is - and so they never end. IT will always be a sin to take God's name in vain - EVEN in Rev 21 when we both know the actual sky will have been replaced.

My guess is that you and I both see this as "the easy part"

 

[Leaf473]

Well then we agree on something.

And I am certain that John is correct (and so also Peter in 2 Peter 3) when he says in Rev 21 that the first heaven and earth get consumed in that lake of fire. "The elements melt with fervent heat".

I am also certain Jesus knew this had not happened yet - in Matt 5.




We just "pay attention to the details" where Heb 10 tells us that at the cross those sacrifices and offerings end and Heb 7 tells us the Levitical priesthood ended.

Jesus did not say "animal sacrifices can only end when the sky vanishes" nor did He say that about the Levitical priesthood.

The Word of God that STANDS is the one informing us about those laws and the fact that they ended at the cross.

Some laws are "predictive" ending when the event they point to - happens.
Other laws are "prescriptive" - defining what sin is - and so they never end. IT will always be a sin to take God's name in vain - EVEN in Rev 21 when we both know the actual sky will have been replaced.

My guess is that you and I both see this as "the easy part"

That's informative, but it's not quite what I was asking.

Jesus said:
For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.

We both agree that at least some part of the law has passed away.

You say that heaven and earth have not passed away. That leaves "all things are accomplished".

Is that what you're saying, that all things are now accomplished?

“I came to throw fire on the earth. I wish it were already kindled. But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am until it is finished!"
Luke 12

 

[BobRyan]

I agree that the physical Heaven and Earth are still here.

Well then we agree on something.

And I am certain that John is correct (and so also Peter in 2 Peter 3) when he says in Rev 21 that the first heaven and earth get consumed in that lake of fire. "The elements melt with fervent heat".

I am also certain Jesus knew this had not happened yet - in Matt 5.

But we have to have some way of saying one or both of the conditions for things passing away from the law have been met.

We just "pay attention to the details" where Heb 10 tells us that at the cross those sacrifices and offerings end and Heb 7 tells us the Levitical priesthood ended.

Jesus did not say "animal sacrifices can only end when the sky vanishes" nor did He say that about the Levitical priesthood.

The Word of God that STANDS is the one informing us about those laws and the fact that they ended at the cross.

Some laws are "predictive" ending when the event they point to - happens.
Other laws are "prescriptive" - defining what sin is - and so they never end. IT will always be a sin to take God's name in vain - EVEN in Rev 21 when we both know the actual sky will have been replaced.

My guess is that you and I both see this as "the easy part"
==========================

That's informative, but it's not quite what I was asking.

And yet you re-ask the same question already addressed in the post above.

Jesus said:
For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.

Indeed. Prescriptive laws never end - and Predictive laws end when the events they predict -- are fulfilled/accomplished.

As just pointed out.


Even you admit animal sacrifice laws end at the cross as Heb 10 already tells us (so no guessing needed).
And you admit that we still should not "take God's name in vain".

You say that heaven and earth have not passed away

And so do you as you noted earlier - Peter points to them passing away in 2 Peter 3 and so does John in Rev 21 -- and you admit it is still future - we still have air.

So pretty hard to still be confused about something.

Something else we know is that even in the New Earth - it would be a sin to take God's name in vain.
Prescriptive laws don't end.

This is the easy part.

 

[Leaf473]

Well then we agree on something.

And I am certain that John is correct (and so also Peter in 2 Peter 3) when he says in Rev 21 that the first heaven and earth get consumed in that lake of fire. "The elements melt with fervent heat".

I am also certain Jesus knew this had not happened yet - in Matt 5.




We just "pay attention to the details" where Heb 10 tells us that at the cross those sacrifices and offerings end and Heb 7 tells us the Levitical priesthood ended.

Jesus did not say "animal sacrifices can only end when the sky vanishes" nor did He say that about the Levitical priesthood.

The Word of God that STANDS is the one informing us about those laws and the fact that they ended at the cross.

Some laws are "predictive" ending when the event they point to - happens.
Other laws are "prescriptive" - defining what sin is - and so they never end. IT will always be a sin to take God's name in vain - EVEN in Rev 21 when we both know the actual sky will have been replaced.

My guess is that you and I both see this as "the easy part"
==========================

And yet you re-ask the same question already addressed in the post above.

Indeed. Prescriptive laws never end - and Predictive laws end when the events they predict -- are fulfilled/accomplished.

As just pointed out.


Even you admit animal sacrifice laws end at the cross as Heb 10 already tells us (so no guessing needed).
And you admit that we still should not "take God's name in vain".

And so do you as you noted earlier - Peter points to them passing away in 2 Peter 3 and so does John in Rev 21 -- and you admit it is still future - we still have air.

So pretty hard to still be confused about something.

Something else we know is that even in the New Earth - it would be a sin to take God's name in vain.
Prescriptive laws don't end.

This is the easy part.

____________

And yet you re-ask the same question already addressed in the post above.

It was not addressed, that's why I asked it again.

You say that heaven and earth have not passed away. That leaves "all things are accomplished"

Is that what you're saying, that all things are now accomplished?

Here is the question:

Is that what you're saying, that all things are now accomplished?

May the peace of the Lord be always with you