Daniel 7:11 and Beast and False Prophet Reve 13:20

[DavidPT]

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.​

I have absolutely no problem accepting that the DEAD have two resurrections. The Martyred are resurrected when Jesus Returns, and the rest of the dead are resurrected after the thousand years.

And in reference to your Rev. 1 & Rev. 6, -- men who are alive when Jesus returns or born during the Millennial Kingdom with join the Martyred as "priests" to GOD.

Did you think that the "raptured church" is mentioned, thereby justifying a "tribulation-era rapture"? -- No. All we can believe is that the DEAD rise first, per Rev. 20:

7 And when the thousand years are ended, ...
13 ... the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.​

... and that those who are alive and remain on earth shall be caught up to the New Jerusalem to be with the LORD forever in the air.

And of course the heavens and the earth shall pass away.

Thanks,
DaDad

Is the following basically your position then?

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning the martyrs which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so the martyrs also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent the martyrs which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead martyrs in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with the martyrs in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with the martyrs in the clouds. How is this fulfilled at the time if this rapture is meaning a thousand years after the dead martyrs in Christ rise first? Doesn't verse 17 clearly connect the rising of the dead in Christ, and the rapture of the living, as occurring during the same event? Verses 14-16 don't occur twice at different times, do they?

 

[DaDad]

Is the following basically your position then?

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning the martyrs which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so the martyrs also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent the martyrs which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead martyrs in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with the martyrs in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

... Doesn't verse 17 clearly connect the rising of the dead in Christ, and the rapture of the living, as occurring during the same event? ...

I've previously provided: Trump was born in New York City and became President. -- WHAT? Trump was President from 0 to 4 years of age?!?

Event proximity is not equivalent to chronological proximity. There is a seventy year span between Trump's birth and Presidency; and a 1,000 year span between verses 16 & 17.

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[DavidPT]

I've previously provided: Trump was born in New York City and became President. -- WHAT? Trump was President from 0 to 4 years of age?!?

Event proximity is not equivalent to chronological proximity. There is a seventy year span between Trump's birth and Presidency; and a 1,000 year span between verses 16 & 17.

Thanks,
DaDad

Your analogy simply doesn't cut it in this case.



1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Be caught up together with who in the clouds?

How can it not be these? and the dead in Christ shall rise first

When are the living to be caught up together with the dead in Christ in the clouds? Do the dead in Christ remain in the clouds an entire thousand years waiting patiently so that they then can also fulfill verse 17 at that time? Maybe in the Twilight Zone that might be possible, but in the real world it's pretty far-fetched.

 

[DaDad]

Your analogy simply doesn't cut it in this case.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Perhaps you missed the analogy:

Trump was born in New York City and became President. -- WHAT? Trump was President from 0 to 4 years of age?!?​

Event proximity is not equivalent to chronological proximity. There is a seventy year span between Trump's birth and Presidency; and a 1,000 year span between verses 16 & 17.

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[iamlamad]

I've previously provided: Trump was born in New York City and became President. -- WHAT? Trump was President from 0 to 4 years of age?!?

Event proximity is not equivalent to chronological proximity. There is a seventy year span between Trump's birth and Presidency; and a 1,000 year span between verses 16 & 17.

Thanks,
DaDad

This is, of course, utter nonsense. But this may be a first: you may be the very first human to come up with this specific nonsense!

I guess you missed the word THEN! (insert a ROFL smiley)

 

[iamlamad]

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.​

I have absolutely no problem accepting that the DEAD have two resurrections. The Martyred are resurrected when Jesus Returns, and the rest of the dead are resurrected after the thousand years.

...
Thanks,
DaDad

DaDad, I have a novel suggestion: create your theories from the WORD instead of your imagination? Well, to your credit, Lazarus will have two resurrections! A few others will also.

 

[iamlamad]

Regarding Joel 2, note that the sixth seal will only be sometime "before" the day (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12).

Regarding Isaiah 2, note that the Day of the Lord in Isaiah 2:10-21 has to begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, not at the start of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For during the second half of the Tribulation, it is Satan (the dragon) and his human son the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") who will be exalted by the world (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), not YHWH, which would contradict "YHWH alone shall be exalted in that day" (Isaiah 2:17).

Also, during the second half of the Tribulation, the world will worship the ultimate idol, the image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:14-15), which would contradict that in that day "the idols he [YHWH] shall utterly abolish" (Isaiah 2:18).

So the people hiding in the rocks at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Isaiah 2:19-21) has to be a separate instance from the people hiding in the rocks at one point during only the first stage of the future Tribulation (Revelation 6:15-16). It is not like people can hide in rocks only one time. Some people did it way back in 1 Samuel 13:6, for example. And Hosea 10:8b refers to the fall of Samaria in 722 BC (Hosea 10:7-8). And Luke 23:30 can include reference to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD (Luke 23:28-30). So Revelation 6:16 can be just one more instance, years before Jesus' Second Coming in Isaiah 2:10-21, where "the glory of his majesty" is the same as in Matthew 24:30, at the Second Coming.



Note that it is the Bible which shows that the future Day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which will not occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the Church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

*******



Note that Paul's rapture is post-trib.

For 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (that is, without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist, by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). And this is one of the things which have to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the Church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at His Second Coming, Jesus will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).



Note that all obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the Church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus Christ into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the Gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all of the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

Also, 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' Second Coming, the souls of all obedient dead Christians of all times will be brought down from the third heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15). And their souls will descend to the earth, and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all Christians who will survive the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth, those who will still be "alive and remain", will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a). And then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be in the clouds above Jerusalem, before He descends to set His feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this Second-Coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus Christ will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the Church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the Church will already be with Jesus when He subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4). Jesus and the obedient part of the Church will then physically reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Sorry, B2, but I learned long ago that it is useless to discuss with people that use only their imagination. Your theories are FAR from the "norm" of Christianity today. I would much rather believe the word as written.

 

[DaDad]

I guess you missed the word THEN!

Donald Trump was born in New York City and became President.
Donald Trump was born in New York City and then became President.​

You're right, the word "then" does appear to more easily accommodate a ~70 year~ separation between being born and being President. Thanks!

Event proximity is not equivalent to chronological proximity. There is a seventy year span between Trump's birth and Presidency; and a 1,000 year span between verses 16 & 17.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. ​

And of course the DEAD are raised as cited in Revelation:

Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended ...
13 ... the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. ​

Or so it would appear.
DaDad

 

[DavidPT]

Donald Trump was born in New York City and then became President.​

The gap of time in this sentence makes perfect sense.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


If there is a gap of time here as well, between when the dead in Christ rise, and we which are alive and remain shall be caught up, it's not a lengthy gap though. We know from the text itself that both events have to occur around the same time. We know this by this part---shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. Who are the 'them' meaning? If one can't even figure that out, no wonder that one can't see that the dead in Christ who rise first at the last trump, that they have to already be in the clouds in order for we which are alive and remain to be caught up together with them in the clouds. This is not difficult. This falls under plain common sense, which is something we should all at least possess to some degree.

 

[DaDad]

The gap of time in this sentence makes perfect sense.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


If there is a gap of time here as well, between when the dead in Christ rise, and we which are alive and remain shall be caught up, it's not a lengthy gap though. We know from the text itself that both events have to occur around the same time. We know this by this part---shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. Who are the 'them' meaning? If one can't even figure that out, no wonder that one can't see that the dead in Christ who rise first at the last trump, that they have to already be in the clouds in order for we which are alive and remain to be caught up together with them in the clouds. This is not difficult. This falls under plain common sense, which is something we should all at least possess to some degree.

Hey DPT,
The only* DEAD which arise in the end-times are the Rev. 20:4-6 Martyred -- by themselves; and the "rest of the dead" per Verses 7-13.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: [Millennial Kingdom "gap"] and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

* With the ~exception~ of the two witnesses who will be killed, and after three days will come back to life and will ascend to heaven.


Thanks,
DaDad

 

[iamlamad]

Donald Trump was born in New York City and became President.
Donald Trump was born in New York City and then became President.​

You're right, the word "then" does appear to more easily accommodate a ~70 year~ separation between being born and being President. Thanks!

Event proximity is not equivalent to chronological proximity. There is a seventy year span between Trump's birth and Presidency; and a 1,000 year span between verses 16 & 17.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. ​

And of course the DEAD are raised as cited in Revelation:

Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended ...
13 ... the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. ​

Or so it would appear.
DaDad

Then: at that time; at the time in question.
"then" refers back the the previous time. In this case to the time of the previous verse.

I woke up. Then I got up. Then I visited the toilet. Then I headed for the kitchen.

As with most everyone, the THEN of visiting the bathroom is IMMEDIATELY after getting up - not 70 years later!

 

[iamlamad]

Hey DPT,
The only* DEAD which arise in the end-times are the Rev. 20:4-6 Martyred -- by themselves; and the "rest of the dead" per Verses 7-13.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: [Millennial Kingdom "gap"] and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

* With the ~exception~ of the two witnesses who will be killed, and after three days will come back to life and will ascend to heaven.


Thanks,
DaDad

Readers RUN! This post is myth.

 

[iamlamad]

Donald Trump was born in New York City and then became President.
DaDad​

​

Only a very poor writer would write this sentence, for it gives the impression of a baby president.

 

[DavidPT]

Hey DPT,
The only* DEAD which arise in the end-times are the Rev. 20:4-6 Martyred -- by themselves; and the "rest of the dead" per Verses 7-13.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: [Millennial Kingdom "gap"] and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

* With the ~exception~ of the two witnesses who will be killed, and after three days will come back to life and will ascend to heaven.


Thanks,
DaDad

But we're not just discussing the dead though, we're also discussing the rapture that follows the rising of the dead in Christ, and when the rapture event occurs.

If the thousand years are meaning after the 2nd coming, where would Christ be during the thousand years if not on the earth? And if He is on the earth during the thousand years, how did those in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 miss that fact, since they, too, would be on this same earth where Christ is dwelling during the thousand years, but instead meet Him for the first time in the air after the thousand years? And that makes sense how?

 

[DaDad]

Readers RUN! This post is myth.

You're right, YOUR POST is myth.

1 Thess. 4 and Revelation 20 align perfectly.

1 Thess. 4:15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, ...
13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.​

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[DaDad]

​

Only a very poor writer would write this sentence, for it gives the impression of a baby president.

That's my point?

Good job,
DaDad

 

[DaDad]

But we're not just discussing the dead though, we're also discussing the rapture that follows the rising of the dead in Christ, and when the rapture event occurs.

Exactly. When the Millennial Kingdom is over, and the New Jerusalem arrives, they which are alive on earth shall ascend to "meet"/join the LORD at the New Jerusalem to be with HIM forever in the air. And the heavens and earth shall pass away.

Or so it would appear,
DaDad

 

[DavidPT]

​

Only a very poor writer would write this sentence, for it gives the impression of a baby president.

I don't see that sentence being much different than the following. And the following I wouldn't assume a poor writer was behind it.

Genesis 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Yet 1 Thessalonians 4:17 proves the rapture closely follows after the dead in Christ rise first. IOW both events are part of the same event at the time, unlike in Genesis 4:2 where these are not part of the same event at the time, where it's obvious that Cain and Abel are born first, and at some point into adulthood, one becomes a keeper of sheep, the other a tiller of the ground.

 

[iamlamad]

You're right, YOUR POST is myth.

1 Thess. 4 and Revelation 20 align perfectly.

1 Thess. 4:15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, ...
13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.​

Thanks,
DaDad

You are really good at ignoring certain words: such as THEN

There are only TWO resurrections: one for the righteous and one for the damned. Which one will YOU choose to be a part of?

 

[iamlamad]

I don't see that sentence being much different than the following. And the following I wouldn't assume a poor writer was behind it.

Genesis 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Yet 1 Thessalonians 4:17 proves the rapture closely follows after the dead in Christ rise first. IOW both events are part of the same event at the time, unlike in Genesis 4:2 where these are not part of the same event at the time, where it's obvious that Cain and Abel are born first, and at some point into adulthood, one becomes a keeper of sheep, the other a tiller of the ground.

It does not use the TIMING word, "then."