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I suppose so but reading the Lord’s prayer and taking it seriously would likely do more. No counsel is better than Jesus and he clearly said we need to forgive others who do us wrong. The answer to serious grudges and minor grudges is the same...forgive. There will be no freedom til one does.I've been meaning to ask Pastor on a Lutheran commentary on the Lord's Prayer, specifically "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors", as we don't think of justification as conditioned on obedience. I suppose we would say, though, that somebody that is living with serious grudges should be talking to a pastor or counselor.
I suppose so but reading the Lord’s prayer and taking it seriously would likely do more. No counsel is better than Jesus and he clearly said we need to forgive others who do us wrong. The answer to serious grudges and minor grudges is the same...forgive. There will be no freedom til one does.
Jesus said that more than once that if we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven. My question is this. Does this make forgiveness conditional? Does it mean we do not have to be forgiven of sins to be saved if we choose not to forgive those who sin against us? What do various ones of you think about the very clear promise/threat regarding forgiving those who do us wrong? How serious is it in terms of salvation? Does it mean merely "loss of rewards?" Jesus said we will not be forgiven. That is not talking about rewards as no one thinks being forgiven is a reward.
What say you?
Context is always important:
Matthew 12:31 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."
and reading the surrounding context in Matthew we come to the conclusion that the "blasphemy against the Spirit" is the sin of unbelief.
Whosoever believes, has been given the gift of faith, this is not of themselves.
There is no greater love a human can show than this: to lay their life down for their friends, but while we were still His enemies Jesus died for us.
This illustrates the difference between the love of God and the love of humanity.
Until you accept God's love as pure charity in the form of forgiveness, you do not have Godly type Love to forgive unconditionally. Luke 7. You do not "forgive others" so God will forgive you, but you do forgive others because God has forgiven you.
I disagree. At the end of the day salvation is all about love; that's the target or end-goal of faith in fact; that's how faith justifies, because love is the epitome of justice for man. And this is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are. The New Covenant is about change-towards the true righteousness or justice man was made for, towards the very image of God, in fact. And love acts, by its nature, which is why the criteria for judgment cited in Matt 25:31-46, for example, makes so much sense. In fact, a classic church teaching I'm familiar with quotes a 16th century believer who would sum it up it this way:The point i was making was the more we love Christ is not the same as the more we are saved.
You either are saved or not saved. There is no 1/2 saved. Even if you 1/2 love.
It is possible to be saved without love. Many get saved out of fear.
You can get married without love.
Well God will condemn them for not forgiving. Is God then doing wrong?Yeah, but as I was telling Dave, we take a very realistic view of how difficult forgiveness often is in the real world. People that have been the victims of crimes are justifiably angry about that, and it would be wrong to condemn them for their anger merely because it isn't seen as pious.
Could very well be a valid point. It’s why I ask the question.Notice Luke 6:36-37 is a similar passage. I believe forgiving others is a necessity for receiving salvation. It has to do with loving others, having compassion and mercy.
“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.”
LUKE 6:36-37 NASB
What is quite amazing is that total unbelievers are yet capable of and have forgiven those who wronged them. And they have NONE of the Holy Spirit. I know some. They were horribly wronged by people and yet forgive them even if they don’t use the same words. HmmmmDoesn’t that imply that we have no choice in whether or not we will forgive someone? It would mean we are incapable of forgiving others unless God has forgiven us and if God has forgiven us we are incapable of not forgiving others. So then Jesus’ statement quoted in the OP would be useless because according to your post we are incapable of choosing whether or not to forgive others. So why would Jesus tell us to forgive others if we are incapable of choosing either way?
Since Jesus said God will not forgive us if we don't forgive others, we can implicitly assume it's sin (Matthew 18:35). Conversely, if we do forgive others, God will forgive us (Matthew 6:14). Furthermore according to Hebrews 12:14-15, if we harbor unforgiveness and choose not to make peace with others, a root of bitterness my grow in our lives, bring defilement. Defilement is the result of sin. Ephesians 4:32 commands us to forgive one another. Breaking God's commandment is sin.That is correct. But where does the Bible say unforgiveness is a sin?
IOW, there’s no scripture and we only have implicit assumptions.Since Jesus said God will not forgive us if we don't forgive others, we can implicitly assume it's sin (Matthew 18:35).
That’s an assumption. Is there a scripture that says this? Sounds like do it yourself salvation.Conversely, if we do forgive others, God will forgive us (Matthew 6:14).
Jesus gave a new commandment, to love one another. Just that one. Forgive one another is not a commandment. Commandments are few and far between. When we ask God to forgive us as we forgive others, there’s not a command involved.[/quote]Furthermore according to Hebrews 12:14-15, if we harbor unforgiveness and choose not to make peace with others, a root of bitterness my grow in our lives, bring defilement. Defilement is the result of sin. Ephesians 4:32 commands us to forgive one another. Breaking God's commandment is sin.
Well, it sounds as if it ought to be, but it’s not. If it were, Jesus wouldn’t have needed to warn us how vital it is. Or one can say that the love of self is stronger at that point than the love of others. Either way, forgiving others is hard at times. It is best if we admit this rather than try to paint lofty images of how easy it ought to be.I would think forgiveness is a natural offspring of love though.
[/QUOTE]IOW, there’s no scripture and we only have implicit assumptions. That’s an assumption. Is there a scripture that says this? Sounds like do it yourself salvation.
Jesus gave a new commandment, to love one another. Just that one. Forgive one another is not a commandment. Commandments are few and far between. When we ask God to forgive us as we forgive others, there’s not a command involved.
Frankly speaking, I rather people turn away from evil regardless of the reason. We’d all be safer and happier."If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves.
I disagree. I go to work every day because I get paid to do so and my boss doesn’t think I’m enticed by those wages. And I’m not a mercenary. I’m not the only one either.If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries.
True, but i’d settle for everyone doing moral good for whatever reason works. I’m pretty sure others feel this way too. I’m pretty practical.Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."
I see. But I don't think the command to love is particularly easy fulfill to begin with either. And it naturally carries with it certain demands on how we treat others-the nature and outworkings of love are pretty well described in 1 Cor 13, for example.Well, it sounds as if it ought to be, but it’s not. If it were, Jesus wouldn’t have needed to warn us how vital it is. Or one can say that the love of self is stronger at that point than the love of others. Either way, forgiving others is hard at times. It is best if we admit this rather than try to paint lofty images of how easy it ought to be.
That’s not a command, it’s a warning. There’s a difference.What about what I posted that said if you condemn you will be condemned if you forgive you will be forgiven. It seems to imply a contrast indicating that if you don’t forgive then you are condemning.
[/QUOTE]IOW, there’s no scripture and we only have implicit assumptions. That’s an assumption. Is there a scripture that says this? Sounds like do it yourself salvation.
Jesus gave a new commandment, to love one another. Just that one. Forgive one another is not a commandment. Commandments are few and far between. When we ask God to forgive us as we forgive others, there’s not a command involved.
Nah. The generation who lived in the first century knew it better then you ever will and they didn’t all understand the scripture. God hides information from some kinds of people and reveals it toReally?? I suggest you study the Greek language since you appear to be oblivious of it. In Eph 4:32,
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