Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[GenemZ]

Genez,



Of all the texts I gave to you, which one makes an exception to the above sentence?

​

The way you express yourself, it appeared that you were trying to double talk-spin away what the passage declares. I could not see the connect between what you did share, and what the passage was conveying. That's the problem.


I think maybe you need to refine your method of expressing your point. I usually do not have a hard time seeing what the other person is getting at, even if I do not agree. In your case? What you say comes across as being abstruse. To me, it seems you want to make yourself sound like you are well informed, but really are not saying much.

That's how you come across. But, that may not be the case. I realize that. You just need to be able to express yourself better, perhaps.


In Christ, GeneZ

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

The way you express yourself, it appeared that you were trying to double talk-spin away what the passage declares. I could not see the connect between what you did share, and what the passage was conveying. That's the problem.

The problem is that you are still connecting the texts with the salvation of each individual soul. It has nothing to do with the salvation of souls. It has everthing to do with the Work of Christ on the Cross and His salvation of mankind. Christ lost none through the Incarnation. All mankind will rise from the dead. Christ is the victor over the grave/death. He missed none, excluded none, including the universe itself. All things were given to Him by the Father, not just human beings.
The problem is that you are prooftexting a verse to fit your premise when the verse has absolutely nothing to do with the OP. the OP is strictly speaking of the salvation of our souls, through faith.

To me, it seems you want to make yourself sound like you are well informed, but really are not saying much.

That may be as well. But what I explained has been Christianity's Incarnational understanding since the Apostolic era. It was clearly defined in the Councils over the dispute as to who Christ was by some false teachers. It has not changed from the beginning.
What I explained is Incarnational theology, the Christology of the Christianity.

 

[GenemZ]

Genez,


The problem is that you are still connecting the texts with the salvation of each individual soul. It has nothing to do with the salvation of souls. It has everthing to do with the Work of Christ on the Cross and His salvation of mankind.

I see.

Now.. If that's what you meant? No wonder you were making no sense. For Christ was speaking of the individual soul of each believer.

John 6:37-40 (New International Version)​

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. ​

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ​

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. ​

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."



​

So?

All will come to Christ????????!

Christ lost none through the Incarnation.

That has to be one of the most silly rationalizations I have ever witnessed to.

What you are thinking?

Is like me stopping you on the side of the road as you are walking by. I ask you how to get to the grocery store. Your answer?

"I will tell you how not to get to the firehouse. For, its not the firehouse, you want to go to."
​

Have a nice Day. I pray you will.




.

 

[Ben johnson]

Yes, but did he lose his salvation because of it? No.

I'm off on holidays tomorrow. I've said all I'm going to say. Take care.

Hi, Sawdust. would you mind helping me to understand how a modern-day-person can reject God, but not be condemned for it? Thanx in advance...

And I hope you had a grand holiday!

 

[Ben johnson]

John 6:37-40 (New International Version)
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus is also quoted as saying, "I will draw (helkuo-drag) ALL MEN to Myself". Jn12:32

Did He mean it?

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Every single soul is called by God. Every single soul has the ability to respond to God in the measure of Grace that God gave to each human being. Every single soul will give an active response to God. They are responding to the fact that God calls all men to repentance.
this is supported throughout scripture.
And why would God drive any away, when He desires that all men would come to know Him?

So?
All will come to Christ????????!

All are called by God. Christ saved mankind just so all men could be called, that all men could believe.
But Christ's promise only consigns God will, not man's. Have you found a corresponding verse anywhere in scripture whereby man can make even a similar stateement about keeping his promise he made to Christ. I don't fear that Christ will keep His word, but I have great misgivings that I could make such a promise and keep it even for a short time.The salvation of our souls is not a one-way street but a mutual agreement with obligations from both sides. You are emphasizing God's side and totally excluding man's responsibility.

That has to be one of the most silly rationalizations I have ever witnessed to.
What you are thinking?
Is like me stopping you on the side of the road as you are walking by. I ask you how to get to the grocery store. Your answer?

Hardly a rationalization when it is what scriptrue has always been understood to mean relative to this text. It is the very definition of the Incarnation. Maybe you should read the definition of the Incarnation, understand its meaning as it seems to have missed you here.
I accept that you may not understand the Incarnation of Christ and the theological meaning of it. But it is soundly scriptural. That teaching has never wavered from the beginning. Could you disprove it?

 

[GenemZ]

Jesus is also quoted as saying, "I will draw (helkuo-drag) ALL MEN to Myself". Jn12:32

Did He mean it?

God draws all men.

Titus 2:11 (New International Version)
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."​

Not men all allow for themselves to continue being drawn.

Acts 7:51 (New International Version)
"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"​

Only those whom the Father draws to the finish line, does he give to Christ. Jesus said, "all the Father gives him will come to him." John 6:37


Believing in Christ, reveals that the Holy Spirit was able to draw that man to the point of no return. To the point of what we call "salvation."

Certain men turn off and resist the drawing of God at a very early basic stage. As revealed in Romans 1.

Romans 1:18-20 (New International Version)
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
​

Others will accept the knowledge that there is a God. From there it can branch off into all sorts of paths of resistance.

One may become religious.

One may become a secular do-gooder, hoping God will accept him by his works after he dies.

One may stop, and demand that men draw him the rest of the way by human logic. (Atheism)

Etc...

Many of the Pharisees got past the Romans 1 - stage. These ones resisted the Holy Spirit to the point of reaching the finish line. They hid themselves in religion. For they no longer could deny God's existence. Yet, some came out, which shows they are without excuse for failing to believe. For they were given what was needed to stop hiding from God.


In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[Ben johnson]

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me,

Perhaps you missed my post before.

Who are those "God gives Jesus"?

"Those Thou hast given Me out of the world, Thine they were, and Thou gavest them to Me (Jesus)." Jn17:15

Those who belong to God --- how many of them BELIEVE in God and LOVE Him? Can anyone assert that a single Human who HATES or DISBELIEVES, belongs to God? No.

"If God were your Father ('Thine-they-were'), then you would love Me ('Thou-gavest-them-to-Me'). Jn8:42

Those who are GIVEN (and clearly, "given" means "BELIEVERS"), Jesus will loose NONE.

If a person ceases to believe, then he ceases to be "given", doesn't he?

Jesus will not have lost such a man, will He?

 

[GenemZ]

If a person ceases to believe, then he ceases to be "given", doesn't he?

Jesus will not have lost such a man, will He?

So, now? The Father is suffering from Divine dementia?

Never knew that! Wow!

Caught the Father by surprise, didn't this guy? Gave him to the Son? Then had to take him back later on.

The Father didn't know that person really did not believe. Only, 'appeared' to believe...

I see.

"Hey, Dad! You goofed! You gave me a bad one!"


​

My Father in Heaven does not give his Son a gift that he will later take back!

Romans 11:29
"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
​

​

God's gifts are irrevocable!

Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
​

Gee, Dad! What's with you! You know I just loved that gift! Thanks, for the lousy gift you gave me! It turned bad! You didn't know it would?! I am now heart broken.











In Christ (chosen from the foundation of the world), GeneZ







.

 

[mattlock73]

God draws all men.

Titus 2:11 (New International Version)
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."​

Not men all allow for themselves to continue being drawn.

Acts 7:51 (New International Version)
"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"​

Only those whom the Father draws to the finish line, does he give to Christ. Jesus said, "all the Father gives him will come to him." John 6:37


Believing in Christ, reveals that the Holy Spirit was able to draw that man to the point of no return. To the point of what we call "salvation."

Certain men turn off and resist the drawing of God at a very early basic stage. As revealed in Romans 1.

Romans 1:18-20 (New International Version)
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
​

Others will accept the knowledge that there is a God. From there it can branch off into all sorts of paths of resistance.

One may become religious.

One may become a secular do-gooder, hoping God will accept him by his works after he dies.

One may stop, and demand that men draw him the rest of the way by human logic. (Atheism)

Etc...

Many of the Pharisees got past the Romans 1 - stage. These ones resisted the Holy Spirit to the point of reaching the finish line. They hid themselves in religion. For they no longer could deny God's existence. Yet, some came out, which shows they are without excuse for failing to believe. For they were given what was needed to stop hiding from God.


In Christ, GeneZ



.

Also remember the parable of the seed. There were those that fell upon rocky soil and grew quickly, but because they had no roots, they did not last. Where these then true believers, saved at one point then lost their salvation? I think not. The analogy being used here of being without roots speaks to the relationship with Christ that they were missing. They might have said all the right things, gone to church, but without that foundational relationship with Christ as your personal savior, what have you in the end?

 

[GenemZ]

Also remember the parable of the seed. There were those that fell upon rocky soil and grew quickly, but because they had no roots, they did not last. Where these then true believers, saved at one point then lost their salvation? I think not. The analogy being used here of being without roots speaks to the relationship with Christ that they were missing. They might have said all the right things, gone to church, but without that foundational relationship with Christ as your personal savior, what have you in the end?

Too many of us hold a self righteous attitude towards salvation. Of the four seeds? Only one was not saved.

Luke 8:11-15 niv
"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God.

Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.

But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop."

​

God's Word also teaches that there will be certain believers who live such an empty life after salvation, that they will lose ALL eternal rewards. But? It also says, they will remain saved! That they could not lose their salvation!

Here!

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (New International Version)
"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."​

That is why Jesus needed to tell us.....

John 6:37 (niv)​

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
​

I believe some just can not see God as being bigger than themselves. That he must be just as reactionary as they are when it comes to someone doing them wrong.

We do not earn, nor deserve, salvation.

Some here, think that is not the case.




In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[mattlock73]

I honestly did not remember the verse reading quite that way, but I see that you are right and I stand corrected. The point that I was trying to make was that church pews are filled every Sunday by those that look on the outside like a picture of Christianity, but on the inside they do not KNOW Christ. I believe in the eternal security of the believer, that no man can remove from God's hand what He has drawn. But for some, those people who mouth the words, then decide at some point to reject them are lessons that one can lose their salvation. I do not believe that, those that just mouth the words are no more truly saved than the demons that James talks about that believe. Anyway, my $0.02, take it for what it's worth, and thank you for the correction.

 

[GenemZ]

I honestly did not remember the verse reading quite that way, but I see that you are right and I stand corrected. The point that I was trying to make was that church pews are filled every Sunday by those that look on the outside like a picture of Christianity, but on the inside they do not KNOW Christ. I believe in the eternal security of the believer, that no man can remove from God's hand what He has drawn. But for some, those people who mouth the words, then decide at some point to reject them are lessons that one can lose their salvation. I do not believe that, those that just mouth the words are no more truly saved than the demons that James talks about that believe. Anyway, my $0.02, take it for what it's worth, and thank you for the correction.

The empty words you spoke of? These will be seen as ....

"If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work."
​

All these folks you point to are producing 'wood, hay, and straw.' Their works will be consumed and destroyed before their eyes.

But?

Remember?

They will be saved.

Why? Because at some point in their lives they turned to the Cross and looked upon Christ dying for their sins, and they believed it. Grace. Mercy. Not works.

You might say that anyone can believe that Jesus died for their sins? Its nothing to do? Then? Why doesn't everybody? Many do not. They refuse to.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (New International Version)
"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."​

Total losers will be saved...

They will be saved like a naked man running from a burning house. All will be lost but his soul.






.

 

[mattlock73]

The empty words you spoke of? These will be seen as ....

"If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work."
​

All these folks you point to are producing 'wood, hay, and straw.' Their works will be consumed and destroyed before their eyes.

But?

Remember?

They will be saved.

Why? Because at some point in their lives they turned to the Cross and looked upon Christ dying for their sins, and they believed it. Grace. Mercy. Not works.

You might say that anyone can believe that Jesus died for their sins? Its nothing to do? Then? Why doesn't everybody? Many do not. They refuse to.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (New International Version)
"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."​

Total losers will be saved...

They will be saved like a naked man running from a burning house. All will be lost but his soul.






.

Mat 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I don't think we really disagree here for the most part, but I do think there is a difference between one who believes with his head (like the demons in James) and one who has an intimate, personal knowledge of Christ in their hearts. One will produce eternal life and one will hear the words of Matthew 7:22-23.

Peace

 

[GenemZ]

Mat 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

That's another matter. Its not about those who were once saved. For Jesus said that he NEVER knew them.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (New International Version)
"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."





ttt



.
​

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

That's another matter. Its not about those who were once saved. For Jesus said that he NEVER knew them.

Could you explain this HUGE contradiction in your theology?

 

[HOPEOF9]

Hi Hope of 9 --- Do you really have 9 kids?

I am grateful to you for having posted 2 Peter 2:20. It says it all in a very concise manner ---

Thanks for your comment - Brian

My Mother is awesome! My brother is 22 years older than I. He's the oldest, so over 2 decades. She is doing marvelous. She is now 79, has outlived her siblings, my Dad, a daughter and a granddaughter. She is very independent and very solid in her faith. I think she still has plenty of years to go, and I miss her terribly for she lives 1100 miles away. She can out walk me, and knows so much about keeping herself healthy. She gives of herself, and doesn't let living alone get her down.

 

[Ben johnson]

Also remember the parable of the seed. There were those that fell upon rocky soil and grew quickly, but because they had no roots, they did not last. Where these then true believers, saved at one point then lost their salvation? I think not. The analogy being used here of being without roots speaks to the relationship with Christ that they were missing. They might have said all the right things, gone to church, but without that foundational relationship with Christ as your personal savior, what have you in the end?

There is no difference in the beginning faith of those in Lk8:13, and those in Lk8:15; both began in faith.

You perceive the thirteeners fell BECAUSE they were "rocky", and the fifteeners persevered BECAUSE they were "good soil"; but that's not what He said.

The thirteeners receive the Word with joy and believed; but because they FELL by temptation/affliction/persecution, they were CALLED "rocky". The fifteeners ALSO believed savingly, but BECAUSE they "held fast and bore fruit with perseverance", they were CALLED "good soil". You see the label was the consequence of their perseverance (or not).

This point is further established in Heb6:7-8; one field is tilled --- if it yields GOOD fruit, it is blessed (called "good soil"); but if it yields thorns and thistles it is cursed and burned (called "bad soil").

So it's established that the soil-type, is consequence of PERSEVERANCE, or not.

Those in Lk8:13, were saved. Until they fell to temptation (persecution and affliction in Mark4:17).

Notice the difference between Mark4:17, and Luke8:15; the former have no firm root in themselves (not God's choice); but the latter hear with a good heart, hold FAST and bear fruit with perseverance (again, not God's choice).

Can you argue with these verses???

 

[GenemZ]

Genez,




Could you explain this HUGE contradiction in your theology?

What contradiction?

One example..

Some people grow up in Christian homes and they never believed in Jesus. They conform to what is expected of them in a religious sort of way, but never by becoming born again.

Satanic forces recruit and seduce them into becoming false teachers, for they can see that this one has the needed qualities for such a work. These ones grew up knowing all the churchianity lingo. They know the Christian culture they grew up in.

These ones never came to Christ, yet they invoked the name of Christ as they had been shown. Demons inspire for pseudo Holy Spirit guidance, and you end up with preachers of the likes that Jesus said he will tell them he never knew them.

That was hard for you to figure out?

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (New International Version)
"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."
​

So be it....



In Christ, GeneZ


.

 

[jmacvols]

The empty words you spoke of? These will be seen as ....

"If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work."​

​

All these folks you point to are producing 'wood, hay, and straw.' Their works will be consumed and destroyed before their eyes.

But?

Remember?

They will be saved.

Why? Because at some point in their lives they turned to the Cross and looked upon Christ dying for their sins, and they believed it. Grace. Mercy. Not works.

You might say that anyone can believe that Jesus died for their sins? Its nothing to do? Then? Why doesn't everybody? Many do not. They refuse to.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (New International Version)​

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."​

​

Total losers will be saved...

They will be saved like a naked man running from a burning house. All will be lost but his soul.






.

The "works" in the context of 1 Cor 3:15 are new converts. The context here deals with "building" the church. The church, not being a physical building, is built by making new converts. Paul "laid the foundation" in Corinth means he made the initial converts. Others came behind Paul and "built the walls", ie they made more new converts. [Note in 1 Cor 9:1 Paul calls these Corinthians his work in the Lord.] Paul says every man's work (convert) will be made manifest, on the day of judgment, fire shall determine what sort of work (convert) every man made. Verse 14, so if Paul's work (convert) is found faithful/abides, then Paul will receive a reward, but if Paul's work (convert) is burned/lost, v15, then Paul himself will not be lost as long as Paul remains faithful, but Paul will suffer a sense of loss over this lost convert. So this passage teaches that converts can be lost, but the person that made that convert won't be lost as long as he remains faithful.