Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[beloved57]

Where was this answered???

I provided scripture right here and you just skipped right on by it..I was anwering your question here:

Quote:
Is faith something God DOES (to us)?

My answer was

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beloved
Its something God gives the elect..Its how we know that we are saved..

Its Good to know when one is saved, thats what faith does..It comes from the righteousness of God and the Saviour Lord Jesus christ..

2 pet 1:

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Now comment on the verse instead of skipping over to just ask more questions..why, you dont really care, you have your preconcieved ideals, so asking folk to show you scripture is Just lipology thats it..lol

 

[GenemZ]

Gene --- in your view, what is the difference between "called" and "drawn"?

John 6:44 (New International Version)
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
​

This drawing is in the power of God's grace. All men have been approached by God in grace at some point in their lives.

Titus 2:11 (New International Version)
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."​

All men have been at some time in their lives had grace applied to their souls. It says, the same grace that brings salvation! Yet? Not all believe. So? Men do resist the grace of God by choice. Those who allow themselves to keep going on will eventually be saved. That happens when they finally reach and cross over the line of no return in God's drawing them. Once over the line, then God hands them over to Jesus to be his own. They are a gift to Jesus from the Father.


The drawing of God is an unconscious operation of God working in the minds of men. It will progress in stages, and will be unique to the way each person thinks. The person is not even aware that God is working when he is being drawn. Example again, is Romans 1:18-20.

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. "
​

God made it plain to them. Yet? They did not know it was God Himself making his case for his existence. They refused to acknowledge God's existence.


Now? When many are called?

Many consciously hear about Jesus Christ and the Cross. They are conscious of what is being told them. The drawing is accomplished without self awareness of what is done to them.

Those in Romans 1 were being worked on unconsciously. Thoughts wrought by God simply would enter a man's mind, not knowing it was not his own thought, and then refused acceptance of the thought as being truth. There was no pressure what so ever this way. Gentle and private reason and logic was to be their witness.



In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[sawdust]

John 6:44 (New International Version)
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
​

This drawing is in the power of God's grace. All men have been approached by God in grace at some point in their lives.

Titus 2:11 (New International Version)
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."​

All men have been at some time in their lives had grace applied to their souls. It says, the same grace that brings salvation! Yet? Not all believe. So? Men do resist the grace of God by choice. Those who allow themselves to keep going on will eventually be saved. That happens when they finally reach and cross over the line of no return in God's drawing them. Once over the line, then God hands them over to Jesus to be his own. They are a gift to Jesus from the Father.


The drawing of God is an unconscious operation of God working in the minds of men. It will progress in stages, and will be unique to the way each person thinks. The person is not even aware that God is working when he is being drawn. Example again, is Romans 1:18-20.

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. "
​

God made it plain to them. Yet? They did not know it was God Himself making his case for his existence. They refused to acknowledge God's existence.


Now? When many are called?

Many consciously hear about Jesus Christ and the Cross. They are conscious of what is being told them. The drawing is accomplished without self awareness of what is done to them.

Those in Romans 1 were being worked on unconsciously. Thoughts wrought by God simply would enter a man's mind, not knowing it was not his own thought, and then refused acceptance of the thought as being truth. There was no pressure what so ever this way. Gentle and private reason and logic was to be their witness.



In Christ, GeneZ



.

Just looking to clarify to make sure I have understood what you are saying correctly.

1. The drawing process is applied to all men.

2. Being called is only applied to those whom God knows will believe in Christ after a certain amount of drawing.

????

peace

 

[GenemZ]

Just looking to clarify to make sure I have understood what you are saying correctly.

1. The drawing process is applied to all men.

2. Being called is only applied to those whom God knows will believe in Christ after a certain amount of drawing.

????

peace

1. The drawing process is applied to all men. As revealed in Romans 1:19ff, even those God deems as reprobates, where at one time drawn. For it was God who made clear to their minds what they wish to suppress with evil thinking.

Now, most men go beyond the very basic level of the drawing of God. Many are believing that there is a higher power over this life. They may peel off into some religion and misplace their God consciousness. For they do not deny there is a God. They may even become a very moral unbeliever who abides by law and order, believing they will be answering to God someday, but they never come to a knowledge of who God really is. The religious types may partake in rituals and strict regulations as to feel something is being accomplished to appease their God consciousness. But, they never come to rest in knowing they are a child of God in love and peace. Knowing, as in having a supernatural experience that makes them know they are a child of God.

Galatians 4:6 (New International Version)
"Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."
​

The "religious" never experience that kind of assurance. They are always working for God's approval in hopes to try and achieve it by merit by what they do according to their religious tradition. There are many religions in this world. Many gods. Some may even evoke the God of the Bible, but they never know him intimately by the Spirit's enabling.

Romans 8:15 (New International Version)
"For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."
​

The religious type often times become frustrated by the spiritually alive born again believer. For they can not picture in their own experience what it is that those who experience they are God's child possess.

John 3:7-8 (New International Version)
"You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."​

The religious types can only wonder... "where is this person coming from? I can hear his words. I can see what he believes. But? What is going on? How can anyone feel that way? Do they not fear failing to please God and be lost?

Nicodemus was religious. Highly religious! He followed a system of strict religious works in order to gain God's approbation. Jesus told him he needed to be born again. I have known a nun who became born again, and have heard reports of ministers first getting saved after standing behind the pulpit for years. Nicodemus became saved. Not all religious types stop being drawn by God.



2. Being called? Being called is intended for those who will believe. Its the shepherd's calling out to his flock.

Yet, when a crowd is being evangelized, not all will believe the message. Those who do not believe heard the call go out, but only those who will believe are chosen out from that crowd to come home to Poppa.


Many are called. Few in contrast believe. Only those chosen by the Father to hand over to Christ will come to Christ. The Father knows who he has been able to draw to the completion. He then choses them out of the crowd to hand over to Christ.

John 6:36-37 (New International Version)
"But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
​

Then again... there are other aspects to the meaning of being chosen.


For by God knowing in his omniscience all who would believe? Before all men were born? Out of knowing all souls who would believe, God chose only certain ones to be designated to be the Bride of Christ.

Moses was not the Bride. He is the age of the Jews. Nor, will the saints alive on the earth during the Lord's reign will be the Bride.

For, during the Millennium it will be the Lord and his Bride reigning over the nations. Those believers being reigned over? Can not be the Bride.

So? We (the Church) were chosen before the foundation of the world to be born at a time, that when we believed, we would by default become the Church. Chosen in Christ.

We have been chosen out of all who will believe to be the Bride of Christ. We are now seated with Christ... IN HIM. Just as Eve was hid in Adam before she was revealed.

That does not mean God chose to save us. It means he chose us for what would sovereignly happen to us after we believed.


Hope that helps a wee bit?


Grace and peace, GeneZ




.

 

[sawdust]

2. Being called? Being called is intended for those who will believe. Its the shepherd's calling out to his flock.

Yet, when a crowd is being evangelized, not all will believe the message. Those who do not believe heard the call go out, but only those who will believe are chosen out from that crowd to come home to Poppa.


Many are called. Few in contrast believe. Only those chosen by the Father to hand over to Christ will come to Christ. The Father knows who he has been able to draw to the completion. He then choses them out of the crowd to hand over to Christ.


Grace and peace, GeneZ

I get the drawing thing but I'm still somewhat confused on the calling thing.

If the call is "intended for those who will believe" why then would there be any necessity for choosing?

Let me give an example of what I mean.

I have 3 children. I take them to the park where they play among many children. At the days end I call to my children to come home. Many other children hear the call but it is not intended for them, only for my 3. My 3 respond. Now once they return to me why would I now need to make a choice between them? Unless you are suggesting that when the call goes out, some "strays" also respond who must then be "weeded out"? If that is the case, then those strays haven't been called at all. They responded to the calling of another which, would not make sense to say "many are called", if you are including them in those who are being called.

Hope I haven't confused you too much.

peace

 

[GenemZ]

I get the drawing thing but I'm still somewhat confused on the calling thing.

If the call is "intended for those who will believe" why then would there be any necessity for choosing?

Let me give an example of what I mean.

I have 3 children. I take them to the park where they play among many children. At the days end I call to my children to come home. Many other children hear the call but it is not intended for them, only for my 3. My 3 respond. Now once they return to me why would I now need to make a choice between them? Unless you are suggesting that when the call goes out, some "strays" also respond who must then be "weeded out"? If that is the case, then those strays haven't been called at all. They responded to the calling of another which, would not make sense to say "many are called", if you are including them in those who are being called.

Hope I haven't confused you too much.

peace

Difference... we do not begin as God's children that he takes to the park. We are all orphans who gathered in the park. We are chosen to become family. God eliminates all the rebels against his drawing by calling us in a way that the rebels will reject. They reject because they hate God.


.

 

[Ben johnson]

All men have been at some time in their lives had grace applied to their souls. It says, the same grace that brings salvation! Yet? Not all believe. So? Men do resist the grace of God by choice. Those who allow themselves to keep going on will eventually be saved. That happens when they finally reach and cross over the line of no return in God's drawing them. Once over the line, then God hands them over to Jesus to be his own. They are a gift to Jesus from the Father.

The "line of no return"? Meaning, "no returning to unbelief"?
"Brethren, if any among you wander from the truth, and another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul from death and covered a multitude of sins." James5:19-20 Clearly "psuche-soul" and "thanatos-death" (combined with "uncovered/unforgiven sins"), refers to "unsalvation". So the only way this passage can mean "not-returning-to-unbelief", is if the subjects were never really saved in the first place. So some try to interpret it into: "Brethren, if any unsaved-lurking-amongst you wander away from truth they never had, and another leads him back to where he never was..." That too is not credible. Besides, James1:14-16 very clearly says "lust conceived births sin, and sin brings death --- do not be deceived beloved brethren". How can we deny that he's talking about "returning to unbelief"?

Heb3 is even clearer --- "Do not harden your heart; take care lest anyone becomes hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God. We are partners in Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end." And into chapter 4, "See that none of you fall away; be diligent to enter God's rest, lest any one of you fall by imitating the Israelites' disobedience and unbelief."

Peter seems to agree --- in 2:2:18, the false prophets and false teachers entice the truly-escaped; in verses 20-22 those who have escaped through the true-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus, but then are entangled again in the defilements, they are worse than BEFORE they escaped --- better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness than having known, to have turned away from the holy commandment."

Another one is in Rom11; we should not be conceited, but fear --- for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare us. They were cut off for unbelief, we stand by faith --- and if we do not CONTINUE in faith we will be cut off. And if they do not continue in unbelief they will be restored.

These things convince me that there is no "point of no return" in our saving-belief. Can you answer them, and/or show me where the "truly-saved", cannot return to unbelief?

The drawing of God is an unconscious operation of God working in the minds of men. It will progress in stages, and will be unique to the way each person thinks. The person is not even aware that God is working when he is being drawn. Example again, is Romans 1:18-20.

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. "

God made it plain to them. Yet? They did not know it was God Himself making his case for his existence. They refused to acknowledge God's existence.

Now? When many are called?

Many consciously hear about Jesus Christ and the Cross. They are conscious of what is being told them. The drawing is accomplished without self awareness of what is done to them.

Those in Romans 1 were being worked on unconsciously. Thoughts wrought by God simply would enter a man's mind, not knowing it was not his own thought, and then refused acceptance of the thought as being truth. There was no pressure what so ever this way. Gentle and private reason and logic was to be their witness.

It looks like you and I agree that "all are drawn" --- agreeing with John12:32; both passages (that, and the one in John6), use "helkuo-draw-DRAG".

I'm not understanding how you're seeing a difference between "draw", and "call".

In Matt22:2-14, "call" clearly means "invitation"; no one was uninvited --- but one preferred business over the feast, another preferred his fields; and the third refused to give up his filthy clothing. All three men, though called, made conscious choices that the king had no part in causing or influencing.

So --- "all are drawn" --- how do you perceive "few are called"?

 

[sawdust]

Difference... we do not begin as God's children that he takes to the park. We are all orphans who gathered in the park. We are chosen to become family. God eliminates all the rebels against his drawing by calling us in a way that the rebels will reject. They reject because they hate God.


.

So when you say "rebels", you're talking about believers who rebel against sound doctrine, yes? The ones not wearing the wedding garments?

"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless. 13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14"For many are invited, but few are chosen." Matt.22:11-14

I'm basing this on what you said earlier in another post about believers who reject sound doctrine now, when the time of the evaluation comes, they will be "gnashing their teeth" when they realise what they miss out on.

Also, when compared to the Revelation passage...

They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." Rev.17:14

So there are effectively 2 types of people: those who reject the invitation outright (unbelievers) and those who accept the invitation (believers). The second group are divided into those called and those called and chosen. Is that how it works?

peace

 

[GenemZ]

The "line of no return"? Meaning, "no returning to unbelief"?

In the drawing, men are making certain decisions about matters only God knows to test for. We are not made aware of God's hand in the matter. We may sense something supernatural, but its never defined at that time of drawing. The Father draws each man *unconsciously*.


The conscious state we finally enter into is what we call faith. That's when we can SEE the one who was drawing us.

Faith can be denied. But at that point men are conscious of what it is they are denying. Not so with the drawing. The drawing reveals who you are. Faith reveals what you are willing to become. Its not of yourself.

You can not stop being who you are. The drawing deals with who you really are. Faith, is God's offering you to become something you are not after you are drawn.

"Brethren, if any among you wander from the truth, and another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul from death and covered a multitude of sins." James5:19-20

Clearly "psuche-soul" and "thanatos-death" (combined with "uncovered/unforgiven sins"), refers to "unsalvation".

It all depends on which salvation you speak.

You act like there is only one aspect and salvation.

Was it the salvation we all receive when we believe? Our salvation from the Lake of Fire?

Or? The post-salvation experience called the Salvation of the soul?

1 Peter 1:8-10 (New International Version)​

"Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.​

Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, [note! it was not to them] searched intently and with the greatest care."​

​

The fact that someone believes in Christ? It means the Father was able to draw him to a completion of his drawing him. That completion can not be undone. For? It was done!

It was the Father's work! It can no more be undone, than the work of Christ on the cross can be undone.



What can be lost by the believer is the opportunity that follows belief in Christ. One we are now all given. To grow in grace and truth.. And, with that growth? Glorify Jesus Christ AFTER we are saved.


Gospel means good news.Sorry to say. Your message? Its bad news. It can not be good news.

Your message begins salvation by grace. But? Your version of that salvation? Now traps us into a salvation by works. Working for what? For an original salvation which was by grace?




That's like putting up a sign on the counter...

"Free lunch. Only $10.00."​

The following passage either says what it does, or it its been written wrong.

John 10:27-29 (New International Version)​

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."​

​

Its not a matter of ...

"Well? What about this verse? What about that?" ​

(when you refuse the explanations to what your exceptions mean, and act like nothing is said).


That passage, Jesus said we will never perish = Lake of Fire.

Either that? Or that was not truth Jesus spoke.


The fact that some do copy believers' actions, and may appear to be saved? Yet, never was? Does not say they lost their salvation. They can not lose what they never had.

These ones are usually religious and legalistic in nature. For these types need rules and regulations; not supernatural guidance, by means of the Holy Spirit.

John 6:38-40 (New International Version)​

"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ​

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. ​

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."​

​

Jesus said that those who become his, he will never lose. That ALL the Father gives him will be saved. From the Lake of Fire!

I can just picture your version of how you present Jesus, saying those words.

Picture this...

Those words I just quoted by Jesus Christ? About losing none of all the Father gives him?

What we end up with after your contradictions?

Is this kind of Jesus...

Jesus looks up to Heaven and says...

"That sure sounded good Father! I bet you our salvation sales for the month jumps fifty percent!"​

Sadly.. That's the kind of Christ you present when you contradict his words. By what you do? That's what becomes of Christ.

You tell us that Jesus can fail to do the will of the Father. The following verse says that by what you tell us, that Jesus fails to do the Father's will.

John 6:38-40 (New International Version)​

"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ​

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. ​

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."​

​

In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[Ben johnson]

In the drawing, men are making certain decisions about matters only God knows to test for. We are not made aware of God's hand in the matter. We may sense something supernatural, but it's never defined at that time of drawing. The Father draws each man *unconsciously*.

The conscious state we finally enter into is what we call faith. That's when we can SEE the one who was drawing us.

Faith can be denied. But at that point men are conscious of what it is they are denying. Not so with the drawing. The drawing reveals who you are. Faith reveals what you are willing to become. It's not of yourself.

You can not stop being who you are. The drawing deals with who you really are. Faith, is God's offering you to become something you are not after you are drawn.

It seems to me that "drawing", is God's calling; and "faith", is our answer.

...if we answer...

It all depends on which salvation you speak.

You act like there is only one aspect and salvation.

Was it the salvation we all receive when we believe? Our salvation from the Lake of Fire?

It's "black-n-white" to me. There are traits that occur together, never separately:

Unbelief.
Unrepentance (willful sin).
Disobedience.
Rebellion.

Other traits also occur together, never separately:

Belief.
Repentance.
Justification.
Sanctification.
regeneration.
Obedience.
Godliness.
Maturity (in time).

Thus, when James speaks of a position that is "wandered away from the faith", with the fruits of "uncovered sins", it is the same position as those who have never believed. For one who walks in sin, by definition does not believe; else he would walk in Christ rather than in sin.

Or? The post-salvation experience called the Salvation of the soul?

How can "salvation from the Lake of Fire", be different from "salvation of the soul"? Souls are raised in Rev20; those in the First Resurrection, to reign with Jesus; those in the second resurrection, to be cast into Gehenna.

1 Peter 1:8-10 (New International Version)
"Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, [note! it was not to them] searched intently and with the greatest care."

The fact that someone believes in Christ? It means the Father was able to draw him to a completion of his drawing him. That completion can not be undone. For? It was done!

Can you support (with Scripture) the idea of "cannot be undone"?

It was the Father's work!

Per John6, it is the work of God (29), that WE work (28).

It is HIS work, that WE do.

It can no more be undone, than the work of Christ on the cross can be undone.

Well --- if it's "done by willful belief", why can it not be "undone by willful unbelief"?

What can be lost by the believer is the opportunity that follows belief in Christ. One we are now all given. To grow in grace and truth.. And, with that growth? Glorify Jesus Christ AFTER we are saved.

Tell me something; if someone truly believes (savingly) in Christ, how can he or she not grow?

Christ is either in someone, as Lord and Master --- thus the person grows; of He is NOT in someone, and he/she does not grow. How can it be else? Can Christ be "SORTA in someone"?

...can a woman be PARTLY pregnant?

Gospel means good news.Sorry to say. Your message? Its bad news. It can not be good news.

Good news for those who abide in Christ; the only question, is "does what I say, reflect Scripture?"

It's up to those who disagree to prove otherwise...

Your message begins salvation by grace. But? Your version of that salvation? Now traps us into a salvation by works. Working for what? For an original salvation which was by grace?

Never "works", Gene; but completely "abiding in Him".

Look at how clear Rom11 is; it is arrogant to think we cannot fall; we can be cut off for unbelief, and those who fell can be restored if they do not continue in unbelief...

That's like putting up a sign on the counter...
"Free lunch. Only $10.00."
The following passage either says what it does, or it its been written wrong.

John 10:27-29 (New International Version)
"My sheep listen to my voice...

This must be "qualified", by verse 9; if anyone enters through Jesus, he is saved, goes in and out and finds pasture. This can ONLY mean "becomes His sheep, through belief/receiving Jesus".

I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish...

WHO shall "never perish"? Those who "believe/enter".

The question remains, "can a person cease to believe?"

no one can snatch them out of my hand.

"snatch", is "harpazo" --- seize/remove-forcibly.

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."

No ONE can FORCE; what does this say against "willful unbelief"? Anything?

Its not a matter of ...

"Well? What about this verse? What about that?"
(when you refuse the explanations to what your exceptions mean, and act like nothing is said).

I'm not "acting like nothing was said"; I showed you how John6, and John10, do not necessarily support what you proposed.

Two persectives, Gene --- you've asserted one of them ("acting like nothing was said").

The other, is if one of us was to perceive a position, then interpret all other verses into that position. That's why I cited the two passages from James; how can they not speak of "falling from salvation"? 1:14-16, 5:19-20. And identical passages can be found in so many other places....

That passage, Jesus said we will never perish = Lake of Fire.

We, the SHEEP; but what if we can cease being "sheep"?

Back to Rom11; God's kindness is for those who CONTINUE in faith, His severity is for those who FALL. We can be cut off if we do not continue in faith, they can be restored if they do not continue in unbelief. How could either of us deny what Paul wrote?

Either that? Or that was not truth Jesus spoke.

It was truth; but we must take the "context", which includes verse 9. And we must read the words as written, including "harpazo-sieze-force".

The fact that some do copy believers' actions, and may appear to be saved? Yet, never was? Does not say they lost their salvation. They can not lose what they never had.

Precisely that; which leads one to puzzle over "wanders away from faith they never had", and "led back to where they never were". How could that be?

These ones are usually religious and legalistic in nature. For these types need rules and regulations; not supernatural guidance, by means of the Holy Spirit.

And even with "rules and regulations", they cannot achieve the righteousness God requires. As Paul said eloquently in Rom8, "What men could not do, weak as the flesh was, God did...."

John 6:38-40 (New International Version)
"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

And in context, the "given", is clearly "those who belonged to God"; they believed in the Father, thus they were given to Jesus. Jn17:6 is undeniable.

Once again, "given", equals "believe". What if someone ceases to believe, deceived by worldly philosophies away from Christ? Col2:6-8 says exactly that...

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
Jesus said that those who become his, he will never lose. That ALL the Father gives him will be saved. From the Lake of Fire!

Will you consider the possibility that "if someone ceases to believe", he "ceases to be given"?

Jesus will lose none of the GIVEN; but non-believers are not "given". The verses that speak of "falling from belief", do not conflict "Jesus loses none the Father gives".

I can just picture your version of how you present Jesus, saying those words.

Picture this...

Those words I just quoted by Jesus Christ? About losing none of all the Father gives him?

What we end up with after your contradictions?

Show me how anything I've said, contradicts Scripture. Tell me how James5:19-20 (and 1:14-16) aren't speaking of "falling from salvation"; and how Heb3:6-14 (and 4:11) isn't "falling from salvation".

Is this kind of Jesus...

Jesus looks up to Heaven and says...

"That sure sounded good Father! I bet you our salvation sales for the month jumps fifty percent!"
Sadly.. That's the kind of Christ you present when you contradict his words. By what you do? That's what becomes of Christ.

You tell us that Jesus can fail to do the will of the Father. The following verse says that by what you tell us, that Jesus fails to do the Father's will.

No one comes to faith, but by voluntary choice. Throughout Scripture we're warned to "abide in Him"; look at 1Jn2:26-28 --- if we do NOT abide in Him, they we will shrink in shame at His return. Does that reflect a "saved position"? Can't.

John 6:38-40 (New International Version)
"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
In Christ, GeneZ

If "belief" is "given", and if "repentance" is "belief", then what of those in Rev2?

"You have left your first-love; REPENT and do the deeds you did at FIRST, or I will remove your lampstand..."

What do you think he meant when he wrote that?

 

[GenemZ]

It seems to me that "drawing", is God's calling; and "faith", is our answer.

It seems to me you chose to ignore what I said. I showed how all men are drawn. Not all men are called. Only 'many' are called.

Romans 1:19-20 types are never called. I could not make it any simpler. So? Where do I go from here?







.

 

[GenemZ]

I provided scripture right here and you just skipped right on by it..

Now comment on the verse instead of skipping over to just ask more questions..why, you dont really care, you have your preconcieved ideals, so asking folk to show you scripture is Just lipology thats it..lol

Just the same. Such a way of thinking can be utilized as a tool to open a doorway for greater understanding for those who do connect. Redeem the time. Make use of what will not change, for the benefit of those wanting to grow.

That's the attitude I take. He's not opposition. He's opportunity for the benefit of others. And, I am sure he takes the same attitude concerning us.



Grace and peace, GeneZ




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