Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[Ben johnson]

know the slogan: "Born once, die twice. Born twice, die once."
You know "the Second Death" is reserved for those whose names aren't written in the Book of Life.

And for those who have been erased/blotted/removed. Like Rev3:10 says.

Ultimately James is talking about death in general. I don't see any reason to think his reference doesn't mean physical death. It may mean this-life, even, as Adam's desire for sin gave way to death, and we share in that sin as well as that death. It may mean God's condemnation of the reprobate at the Last Day, who are resurrected to judgment and then enter the Second Death. And it may even mean some kind of spiritual death -- a further spiritual separation from God. Paul said, "I die daily." Do you think he lost his salvation daily?

James1:15, and 5:20, is speaking of spiritual death.

In any event, you're still down to the same conclusion. James' audience is neither all-saved nor all-reprobate. This is the message for such an audience: that they're condemned unless they're perfect; their perfection must be inside & out; and so they need a Savior.

The "Two Groups" argument, Five-Way #3, doesn't work; he's conveying movement --- "Wanders AWAY FROM the truth".

If it's the Spirit's indwelling us, making us so, you get no argument from Calvinists. It's just that we find the Holy Spirit to be God Almighty, and the work going on in us to be re-creation, not performance pressure.

The Spirit does not indwell before belief, and does not continue after unbelief. The Spirit truly can be "quenched/grieved/insulted", and then He will not persist in a sinner-unbeliever.

Ephesus is a whole church, loss of the Lampstand doesn't kill all the believers there, do you think?

It's the idea of "movement" that denies Calvnism; removing the lampstand unless they repent, clearly conveys CHANGE.

Luke describes people whose belief is "skin deep". What they believe is not said. "Even the demons believe; and quake." There are definitely forms of belief that don't save. The form of belief that does save is relying primarily on Jesus Christ to save, and not ourselves, our thoughts, our actions.

You're still trying to assert Five-Way #3 --- "Two Groups". But a person who was NEVER saved, cannot wander away FROM truth that he never HAD. Nor can he be lead back to where he never WAS. It's the "movement" that ruins "predestination".
Even "faith plus ...." -- add law, works, actions, will, speech, anything that you hold is just as important as faith -- even that doesn't save. When he says "even demons believe", he's speaking to believers, warning them to excercise true belief. In other words, "followers of Christ will have good works; don't forsake the good works and move away from the faith".

What about
If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself

Faithlessness is possible, and because salvation is by God's grace through our faith, there is no such thing as "faithlessly-saved".[/b] 2Tim2:11-13 is contrasting "reign-with-Him" (saved), with "denied-by-Christ/faithless" (NOT saved).

And again if WE are faithless, there's movement.

I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

"Snatch" --- harpazo, FORCE.

I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That love also stretches forth to those who perish.

There are others like them.

Each of them can be discussed, and will prove themselves not to support "sovereign election".

Me too. It's just that I don't think the Scriptures aren't saying what you're understanding them to say. They are warning us of self-deception, of a shallow "fondness" for God that withers in the heat of challenge and not utter reliance -- faith -- in God. They aren't warning us of a line in the sand that, if we cross it, we undo our re-creation and become unsaved.

Either we can not experience "self-deception", "shallowness", "faithlessness", or we can be self-deceived/faithlessly/shallowly SAVED.

We can be deceived away from Christ, and that is "not saved".

 

[Ben johnson]

"all" in Greek is an adjective. It doesn't always mean "all people", it's a qualifier of the nouns in the passage. The groups in scope are "Jews" and "nations". "all" qualifies them -- all nations.

He qualifies "all" with "disbelief"; so you would be reduced to defining "ALL", situationally. "ALL were shut up in unbelief, that He may have mercy on SOME".

No, because "atimia" means "shame" primarily. "koine" means "common" as you're wishing Paul to have used it here, now.

There are three vessels; I don't see any indication there are only TWO, nor do I see indications that "common/dishonor" refers to the THIRD "vessels-wrath-prepared-for-destruction".

No, I don't accept that. I've no reason to accept that. The most you've ever shown for this argument is that it might be that, if we take the lesser meaning of the passive sense as being the middle, and make these words softer than they really are. But if you don't take this special case you don't reach the same conclusion.

God prepares NO one for destruction; if you take "atimia" to mean "condemned", then God MADE them from the same lump of clay with which He also made "honor".

Making God CAUSAL to unbelief/sinfulness/condemnation.

Really. Where's "You might answer back" in Rom 9:11-21? It doesn't even appear in Paul's explanation up to Romans 9:19, as far as I can tell.

"You will say to me ....who are you to answer back?" Verse 19-20

Paul's response to 9:19 doesn't seem to be "Oh, you can think that, sure" is it? Or how might it be that "Oh you might think that" could be derived from, "Who are you to answer back to God?"

Because he says "you will say to me..."

The point of the passage, is "If God also wants to save Gentiles, who are you to complain?"

Why would God hold a Final Judgment at all then, since "we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin" Rom 3:9

For that matter, why run anything at the end? Why not just grab & go with the people God can see will make it?

But He does. He does hold a judgment. He defines a universal history. Everyone makes his appearance before the God of the Universe, to hear from the Infallible his sentence.

You believe that God sovereignly chooses who WILL be saved and who WILL be condemned, then runs a JUDGMENT for what He decided long ago?

God thinks it's right.

Men are condemned for what they CHOSE. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, because they will KNOW that they willingly chose their condemnation.

And they have "no excuse". The construct of "GOD chose, we are but helpless pawns in the hands of an all-predestining sovereign God" is the BEST excuse of all time.

 

[Ben johnson]

The context of the passage?

These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. Matt.10:5&6

The passage you quote is applicable to the Jews during the tribulation.

He's speaking of Disciples, teaching Jews; but seeing as "there is now neither Jew nor Greek", it applies to us. We are to FEAR He who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (firey Hell).

Why fear, what cannot happen?

(and I think you may have meant verses 32&33)

YOU, are the BEST! I cannot get away with mis-quoting; you look them up (most people don't)! I am SO pleased and proud of you! You're right, of course, and I was wrong; verse 32-33 is what I meant. Well done!

It doesn't say "to those who perish", you are assuming that. It says "because He cannot disown Himself".

It contrasts "live/reign", with "faithless/denied". There is no way we can be "faithlessly-saved".

Who are those who are "Himself" in this passage? All those who believe in Him because they have been baptised into His death and hence baptised into His life. (v.11) This life and death is guaranteed by virtue of the baptism of the Spirit.

Not if they're faithless; the Spirit does not indwell the faithless.

The problem is you keep seeing the size of our faith as the prerequisite to salvation. If that were the case then how much is enough? If we had to be as full as Christ, then all of us are in dire straits. But as they say "size doesn't matter". It's whether you have any faith at all and if you believe in Christ then you have faith. You might need a microscope to see it but you have it. Unbelievers on the other hand have no faith at all.

To me, it's as though a woman is "pregnant", or "not" --- she is not INBETWEEN. Either we HAVE Christ, or we do NOT. If we do, then we will have godly fruits, and He will lead us towards maturity. If we do not mature, then we do not have Him.

Our perseverance in the faith can only occur if we first have the faith in which to persevere.

Exactly. Hence "by your faith save your souls" (Lk21:19), and "perevere in your teachings; as you DO you will save yourselves" (1Tim4:16).

If we do endure? Then we are rewarded with responsibilities in heaven (reign) because we have shown our selves trustworthy with the Word now in this life.

If we do not endure? Then we will not be trusted with more of the Word in heaven. We could have lived like a queen (if we endured) but instead we will live like a peasant in the greatest kingdom of all.

If we do NOT endure, then there shall be no difference between US, and those He calls "goats".

 

[Ben johnson]

I'm only going to respond to this bit. (it's a time thing)

Now before I speak I want you to know I'm backing away to a very high mountain and I'm doing that because I'm about to start yelling. I don't want you to think I am yelling in your face because I want every Christian in the world to hear this.

SIN IS NO LONGER THE ISSUE IN A CHRISTIAN'S LIFE. IF YOU TRY TO MAKE SIN THE ISSUE, YOU WILL FAIL EVERY TIME. NO-ONE CAN OVERCOME SIN BUT CHRIST AND HE DID THIS ON THE CROSS. "IT IS FINISHED" (Jn:19:30). YOU HAVE BUT ONE RESPONSIBILTY IN REGARDS TO SIN. "NAME IT, FORGET IT, MOVE ON." (1Jn:1:9)

Ok I'm back.

What we are to overcome in this life is evil. Evil is false thinking (false doctrine) in the soul.

Clearly stated in passages like Heb10:26, "If we CONTINUE sinning willfully after having RECEIVED knowledge (full knowledge) of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire that consumes the adversaries.

This reflects on what Jesus said, John8, He has come to destroy sin; he who practices sin is a slave to sin --- so whom the Lord sets free will be free indeed. It's not that our sins are COVERED, but rather we repent FROM sins and His righteousness becomes ours.

Evil is like coat pegs on the "coat rack" of our life. Sin is like the coats that are hung there. It is the sin nature that does the hangin up of the coats.

If we walk in Him, we do not walk in sin. We still sin occasionally (demonstrating that we can go against God's will); but we walk in repentance, and by His power strive not to sin.

As long as the pegs are there, the sin nature will hang a coat upon it. We are to get rid of the pegs and we do this by learning God's truth (the Word). The word of God in our soul removes the pegs and gives no room for the sin nature to hang up a coat (Psalm.119:11 and Col.3:16). Hence, we sin less as we grow in the knowledge of Christ. As long as we hold onto false thinking the sin nature has a place to work in our life.

No, my friend; there are no coats on our racks. As we sin, we are convicted, repent, and His forgiveness immediately removes the coat(s). As we walk in Him, we are AWARE of sinning, and that awareness compells us to seek Him that we not sin again.

Look at the non-Christian's closet, full of coats; he says "Oh I'll get right with God and clean out the closet, then perhaps I'll believe"; yet in our closet is Christ HIMSELF, saying "I have cleaned it for you."

As long as we are in this body the sin nature will hang up coats. It's the nature of the beast, it can do nothing else. There is not a darn thing we can do to stop it. We are utterly powerless to overcome sin.

Hardly powerless; the conflict between the "old sinful nature" and the "new godly nature", is displayed in Rom7; and the SOLUTION to that conflict, in Rom8.

If you do sin, then simply say "that was sin". Don't make promises you will never do it again, don't beat yourself over the head with it, don't ignore it, don't wallow in guilt about it, don't try and shake yourself up in the hopes next time you will be stronger .... and the list goes on. You couldn't do anything the first time round to stop it what makes you think you can do anything now to stop it?

Because HE is in us, and we are aware and convicted of what we've done.

Instead, simply call it for what it is then forget about it and move on to sitting at the feet of our Lord and learn His truth. Eventually the truth you need for that sin to no longer be a problem in your life will become a part of who you are in the Lord. Not only will the sin itself disappear from your life but the temptation to sin will have less and less power over you. In some areas of your life, temptation will lose its power altogether and you will look back and wonder why it was that you committed that particular sin in the first place.

Let's look at two verses, I'll cite them in reverse order:
"No temptation has overtaken you, but such as is common to men; God is faithful, and will not let you be tempted beyond what you can endure, but with the temptation provide a means of escape that you may be able to stand.

Therefore, let he who thinks he stand, take heed lest he fall." 1Cor10:13,12

Fall from what?

be at peace (please, especially over the issue of sin)

I can never be at peace with sin; He commands me to be perfect (Matt5:48) --- which I can only do by "Him in me". We are to be, through Jesus, the righteousness of God. 2Cor5:21

 

[heymikey80]

And for those who have been erased/blotted/removed. Like Rev3:10 says.
James1:15, and 5:20, is speaking of spiritual death.
=snip=

As I've mentioned a number of times Ben, when a theology starts treating everything as soteriological, it ends up with incoherence: works are necessary, works are not necessary, faith before the desire that would bring faith, regeneration demanded by your self-changed heart, which pre-capitulates God's action in regeneration.

Not everything is soteriology. There's no reason to deal with this in flatly soteriological terms. James' meaning in 1:15 points to multiple thrusts of his point: that sin is the cause of all death in this-creational terms -- in physical terms. That sin can be applied to the spiritual realm in the same way. That sin begins in the heart and expands out into death, and we need some way of being transformed from the heart.

I don't think this is James' "how-to" of salvation.

I don't find a need to subdivide the meanings to get at which one James "really" meant. I think he really meant to break through to people at multiple levels, get people's attention whatever focus they were on, and turn that focus toward their need wherever they were at. That meant his statements have meaning for believers; for unbelievers; for anyone who listened.

There are three vessels; I don't see any indication there are only TWO, nor do I see indications that "common/dishonor" refers to the THIRD "vessels-wrath-prepared-for-destruction".

In each sentence Paul distinguishes two divisions, by two names. We're either talking about two, or four, attributes. As Paul seems to be applying the first in illustration of the second, I'm baffled why you'd want it to be three.

In fact if it's just three, I've no confidence in the exposition. "Honor" and "dishonor" cover the entire range of vessels. If the vessels of honor are those prepared for glory, then the remainder are the remaining two, together. They are not two different remainders. Both are not for honor/glory. Both are for dishonor/destruction.

 

[heymikey80]

That love also stretches forth to those who perish.

Oh? Why doesn't God's justification stretch forth to the same extent as His choice, as the prior passage states -- twice? And how can a conditional theology ever claim that "nothing can bring a charge against those God has chosen"?

If God's chosen everyone, no charges can be brought against anyone. Everyone is justified. Everyone is glorified.

Yet Paul makes a distinction. Paul previously stated, "Those he predestined, He called; those He called, He justified; those He justified, He glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?"

Without projecting out of Scripture what it doesn't say, when we "do not go beyond what is written", this passage makes quite a claim in favor of Calvinism.

What claim is it really making?

Expounding on the chapter: it's claiming the rules of Life have changed. They're no longer working with a "mutual back-scratching" system, they're no longer working with a "you need to do this to stay in" system.

They're working with a simple conditional -- not one you can =grunt=, =wheeze=, muster up in your gut to oppose the world around you. They're working with the principle of the power of an indestructible life, slamming aside the falsehoods inside you, stretching toward the Saviour within and without and in others and above. It's a new principle, because it's not forcing you into a new law. It defines its own law: a pure and perfect law, in which the Spirit overpowers evil by His own Presence, and in His Own time in those He has first chosen.

God's not looking for slip-ups to condemn people, BC or AD.

God's looking for the people He shall change.

 

[GenemZ]

Jesus plainly says the saved shall never perish..

This would help...

John 6:39 (New International Version)​

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."



​

​

That says that one can not 'once be saved' ... and then lose it.

If he could?

Our Lord is a LIAR.

Then? No one is saved!

If we say we can lose our salvation in the face of that passage? Its slapping the Lord in the face, and calling him a LIAR.

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."
​

​

So saith the LORD!

Not men, who only see God as they see themselves.



If our thinking contradicts that which is plain spoken in Scripture?

Then what we are thinking needs to be changed (repentance). Changed by seeking truth to explain why what we accepted wrongly, is not the way we say it has to be. That seeking is a major component of what is called "fighting the good fight" by not surrendering to a lie.


In Christ, GeneZ




.
.

 

[AndOne]

Genez -

Great post, brother! Truly awesome!

I love the pic of the monkey too!

 

[savedbygrace57]

This would help...

John 6:39 (New International Version)​

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."



​

​

That says that one can not 'once be saved' ... and then lose it.

If he could?

Our Lord is a LIAR.

Then? No one is saved!

If we say we can lose our salvation in the face of that passage? Its slapping the Lord in the face, and calling him a LIAR.

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."
​

​

So saith the LORD!

Not men, who only see God as they see themselves.



If our thinking contradicts that which is plain spoken in Scripture?

Then what we are thinking needs to be changed (repentance). Changed by seeking truth to explain why what we accepted wrongly, is not the way we say it has to be. That seeking is a major component of what is called "fighting the good fight" by not surrendering to a lie.


In Christ, GeneZ




.
.

Good post, it speaks for itself..

 

[Rightglory]

genez,

This would help...


John 6:39 (New International Version)
"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."


That says that one can not 'once be saved' ... and then lose it.
If he could?
Our Lord is a LIAR.
Then? No one is saved!
If we say we can lose our salvation in the face of that passage? Its slapping the Lord in the face, and calling him a LIAR.


"I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."
So saith the LORD!
Not men, who only see God as they see themselves.

If our thinking contradicts that which is plain spoken in Scripture?
Then what we are thinking needs to be changed (repentance). Changed by seeking truth to explain why what we accepted wrongly, is not the way we say it has to be. That seeking is a major component of what is called "fighting the good fight" by not surrendering to a lie.

It really does not help the topic. It has nothing to do with the topic which is faith and our relationship with Christ through faith. You should read the next verse to get the proper understanding when it refers to believers.
Vs 39 refers to the Work of Christ on the Cross overcoming the condemnation of death through Adam. It is an explicit reference to the Incarnation. Christ lost none to death. All men shall be raised at the last day to stand in judgment before Him. It aligns with Rom 5:18-19. And with I Cor 15: 20-22.
They will stand there on the bases of what they did with the offer of union and communion which Christ was able to offer to mankind, once man is no longer in bondage to death and sin.
If He did not overcome death for all, He could hardly be called the Victor over death. Satan would still control the universe through the power of death.
If Christ had not saved all of mankind from death, then obviously He would not have been able to call all men to repentance either. It would be a lie that He truly desired all men to come to know HIm, if it were not even possible.
And you are right. Death is not going to be a problem for man again. We suffer the consequence of Adam's condemnation in this life to rid the the body of sin, the flesh, but will be raised immortal at the last day. Man cannot lose life again. An impossibility.

 

[GenemZ]

genez,


It really does not help the topic. It has nothing to do with the topic which is faith and our relationship with Christ through faith.

Are you serious? You can't be.

The OP read....

Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

Are there any verses in Scripture that present truly saved people, becoming unsaved?

I have no idea what else you just tried to explain.

You should read the next verse to get the proper understanding when it refers to believers.
Vs 39 refers to the Work of Christ on the Cross overcoming the condemnation of death through Adam. It is an explicit reference to the Incarnation. Christ lost none to death. All men shall be raised at the last day to stand in judgment before Him. It aligns with Rom 5:18-19. And with I Cor 15: 20-22.
They will stand there on the bases of what they did with the offer of union and communion which Christ was able to offer to mankind, once man is no longer in bondage to death and sin.
If He did not overcome death for all, He could hardly be called the Victor over death. Satan would still control the universe through the power of death.
If Christ had not saved all of mankind from death, then obviously He would not have been able to call all men to repentance either. It would be a lie that He truly desired all men to come to know HIm, if it were not even possible.
And you are right. Death is not going to be a problem for man again. We suffer the consequence of Adam's condemnation in this life to rid the the body of sin, the flesh, but will be raised immortal at the last day. Man cannot lose life again. An impossibility.

It has nothing to do with what was written about nbot being able to lose one's salvation after believing in Christ. You are way off on another limb. It will derail the thread if I address what you wrote too much.

Simply. Jesus said he will lose none of all the Father gives Him.

Lose none of those who believe.

What you described? You are making no sense to me. Sounds like you are a universalists. That you believe all men will be saved. That none will be lost.


In Christ, GeneZ


.

 

[GenemZ]

To get back on track....

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."



​

That says that one can not 'once be saved' ... and then lose it.

If he could?

Our Lord is a LIAR.

Then? No one is saved!

If we say we can lose our salvation in the face of that passage? Its slapping the Lord in the face, and calling him a LIAR.

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."


​

So saith the LORD!

Not men, who only see God as they see themselves.



If our thinking contradicts that which is plain spoken in Scripture?

Then what we are thinking needs to be changed (repentance). Changed by seeking truth to explain why what we accepted wrongly, is not the way we say it has to be. That seeking is a major component of what is called "fighting the good fight" by not surrendering to a lie.


(I love the way some are used to come up with obfuscated logic that is so way out there, that it leaves everyone forgetting what the obfuscation was wanting to blow a heavy fog over).





.

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

Simply. Jesus said he will lose none of all the Father gives Him.

Yes, and He was given all mankind. He redeemed the whole universe. He not only did not lose any human being, but He also saved the World from death.

Lose none of those who believe.

That verse does not say that. It is true that Christ does not lose any, even those that believe. It is the other way around for faith. It is man that loses faith. This is speaking of the salvation of our souls. Christ did not save your soul from the Cross. He saved mankind from death, so that whosoever believes could share eternity with Him. Without vs 39, verse 40 is totally impossible and any other verse that speaks of faith, believing. I Cor 15:14-19 clearly explains that as well.
You might know that even hell does not separate a human being from the love of God. See if you can understand that theological point.

That you believe all men will be saved. That none will be lost.

I believe all mankind has already been saved. That is the principle meaning and intent of Scripture. Christ came to redeem the world. He is the Savior of the world. He came to restore mankind to the position man had with God before the fall. So man can do what we were created to do as human beings, which is to be in union with Him. This is the salvation of our souls, which is made possible by Christ overcoming death, the condemnation of Adam upon mankind.
The salvation of ones soul is between you and God. it is a covanental agreement you enter with Him. If you desire at a later time to renege on your agreement, you are free to do so. Just read the story of Adam. Was he able to choose to God and Satan? If you say, no, then your view can have some credibility. If you say, yes, then one surely can leave the Kingdom in this life. We are saved through our faith. If we have no faith, or lose faith, then we are no longer being saved.

To get back on track....
"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."
That says that one can not 'once be saved' ... and then lose it.
If he could?
Our Lord is a LIAR.
Then? No one is saved!

, b ut the salvation is life which is being referenced. Physical life. Faith does not grant eternal life. Christ's death, resurrection, the Incarnation grants life to mankind. There is no distinction, no exceptions. All men will rise on the last day. It is the echological fulfillment of the Incarnation. Do you believe Christ would have lost one? the only way it would or could be possible is that someone did not have a human nature like the rest of us, He is consubstantial with us, or if you don't understand that, He is us. He assumed our consubstantial fallen natues, to be His own, so that He might raise it from the dead. He gave LIFE to mankind. I Cor 15:20-22.
Scripturally speaking, you are off topic and I was trying to point that out to you.
Now maybe you could get back on topic and actually discuss the salvation of our souls and not the salvation of mankind. There is a distinct difference.
Get out of the fog you have created.

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben johnson
And for those who have been erased/blotted/removed. Like Rev3:10 says.
James1:15, and 5:20, is speaking of spiritual death.

As I've mentioned a number of times Ben, when a theology starts treating everything as soteriological, it ends up with incoherence:

"Blotted from the BOOK of LIFE", can somehow be "not-soterioligical"? No way, Mike.

works are necessary,

Works are not necessary to salvation --- I have never said that. Works are necessary consequence of one who has BEEN saved.

works are not necessary, faith before the desire that would bring faith

This is colored by the preconception that "unregenerated men cannot desire to be saved" --- they can. Nowhere does regeneration happen BEFORE faith.

regeneration demanded by your self-changed heart, which pre-capitulates God's action in regeneration.

REgeneration is not by a "self-changed-heart" --- I've never said that either. Regeneration is by the received Spirit, who THEN changes the heart.

Not everything is soteriology. There's no reason to deal with this in flatly soteriological terms. James' meaning in 1:15 points to multiple thrusts of his point: that sin is the cause of all death in this-creational terms -- in physical terms. That sin can be applied to the spiritual realm in the same way. That sin begins in the heart and expands out into death, and we need some way of being transformed from the heart.

"Thanatos" conveys "death with implication of eternity in Hell". If one were to deny "spiritual/eternal death", he would have to assert "SINNINGLY saved" in James1:14-16, and sinningly saved (UNCOVERED SINS!!!) in James5:19-20.

I don't think anyone would be willing to contend for "unforgiven/SINNINGLY saved".

I don't think this is James' "how-to" of salvation.

James says that without works, our faith is dead (unsaved).

I don't find a need to subdivide the meanings to get at which one James "really" meant. I think he really meant to break through to people at multiple levels, get people's attention whatever focus they were on, and turn that focus toward their need wherever they were at. That meant his statements have meaning for believers; for unbelievers; for anyone who listened.

There are only two choices, Mike:

1. Sinningly-saved
2. Do not be deceived beloved brethren to thanatos-death-and-Hell

In each sentence Paul distinguishes two divisions, by two names. We're either talking about two, or four, attributes. As Paul seems to be applying the first in illustration of the second, I'm baffled why you'd want it to be three.

No, He's making from ONE lump of clay "honor", and "dishonor/common"; there is ONE vessel in verse 22, and the Greek supports "prepared THEMSELVES for destruction".

In fact if it's just three, I've no confidence in the exposition. "Honor" and "dishonor" cover the entire range of vessels. If the vessels of honor are those prepared for glory, then the remainder are the remaining two, together. They are not two different remainders. Both are not for honor/glory. Both are for dishonor/destruction.

Then you again have only two choices:

1. God prepares SOME vessels for salvation (His choice, not theirs), and God CREATES other vessels SINFUL and CONDEMNED

2. God makes out of ONE LUMP of clay ON His wheel vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, and PATIENTLY ENDURED vessels of wrath prepared (themselves!) for destruction, that He may show the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy which He prepared beforehand (on His wheel) for glory.

Do you think God creates sin?

Oh? Why doesn't God's justification stretch forth to the same extent as His choice, as the prior passage states -- twice? And how can a conditional theology ever claim that "nothing can bring a charge against those God has chosen"?

You're missing the direction of His justification. He justifies those who believe --- not vice-versa. Rom3:26

This is the problem with "Sovereign Predestination" --- it casts God as ACTIVE in man's salvation, and man fully passive --- making men unresponsible and God fully responsible. Look at that Romans3:26 verse; now look at Matt7:24-27; then Heb11:6; then Acts10:34-35 --- we could go on, but these verses clearly show God as RECEIVING men's action, and men FULLY ACTIVE in their salvation.

Look at another "refuted verse" --- Jeremiah 17:9. Thought to assert "men's hearts are too wicked to EVER believe". But read verse ten --- "I (the Lord) SEARCH the heart and give to each man according to his ways."

God receiving man's consideration; that's the truth of Scripture...

If God's chosen everyone, no charges can be brought against anyone. Everyone is justified. Everyone is glorified.

Please re-read Matt22:2-14; who are the chosen? ALL are invited (many called), but only those who CAME and changed clothes (but few chosen) were accepted.

You can't deny it.

Yet Paul makes a distinction. Paul previously stated, "Those he predestined, He called; those He called, He justified; those He justified, He glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?"

The passage begins with "those WHO love God"...

Without projecting out of Scripture what it doesn't say, when we "do not go beyond what is written", this passage makes quite a claim in favor of Calvinism.

What claim is it really making?

Expounding on the chapter: it's claiming the rules of Life have changed. They're no longer working with a "mutual back-scratching" system, they're no longer working with a "you need to do this to stay in" system.

They're working with a simple conditional -- not one you can =grunt=, =wheeze=, muster up in your gut to oppose the world around you. They're working with the principle of the power of an indestructible life, slamming aside the falsehoods inside you, stretching toward the Saviour within and without and in others and above. It's a new principle, because it's not forcing you into a new law. It defines its own law: a pure and perfect law, in which the Spirit overpowers evil by His own Presence, and in His Own time in those He has first chosen.

You can't get past thinking "saving-faith is meritorious/self-cause". Our faith is not in OURSELVES, it is conviction that we are FULLY deserving of Hell, and fully broken throwing ourselves on His mercy. There is no merit for us; HE is all of salvation, we have nothing to do with it (John1:13) --- but it's a gift we RECEIVE (John1:12).

God's not looking for slip-ups to condemn people, BC or AD.

Go back to James; in vain could one try to cast them as "never-saved" (beloved brethren, in faith and covered sins) --- equally in vain could one try to assert "falling isn't possible" (sin brings death; saved-soul-from-death and cover sins).

God's looking for the people He shall change.

Let's see if we can agree on who is active, and who is passive in our belief. Let's discuss Heb11:6, Acts10:34-35, Matt7:24-27.

Are you game?

 

[Ben johnson]

This would help...

John 6:39 (New International Version)
"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

That says that one can not 'once be saved' ... and then lose it.

If he could?

Our Lord is a LIAR.

Then? No one is saved!

If we say we can lose our salvation in the face of that passage? Its slapping the Lord in the face, and calling him a LIAR.

Hi, Gene! It's really good to "see" you again. It's been a long time.

What's the point of John6:32-47? Jesus is asserting His authority, isn't He? In 42 the Jews said, "We saw this kid grow up, now he says 'I've come down from HEAVEN'? Who does He think He IS?!"

So when Jesus says "all the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and I shall not cast out anyone who comes; all He has given Me I shall lose nothing" --- WHO are the "Given"?

Jesus Himself answers: "Father, those Thou hast given Me out of the world --- Thine they WERE, and THou gavest them to Me." Jn17:15 Thine they were --- why? Because of "fore-chosenness"? Or because of FAITH? In Rom4:3 Abraham believed AND it was reckoned as righteousness. In John8:42 Jesus says "If God were your Father, then you would love Me."

In Acts16:14 Lydia was a worshipper of God ("Thine they were..."), AND her heart was opened to Christ ("Thou gavest them to Me...")

Two choices again avail:
1. People are given to Jesus TO believe, "given" precedes "faith"
2. People are given to Jesus BY (through!) faith

If you choose #1, then please explain how the faithless/God-haters can be described as "THINE THEY WERE"?

Jesus' point in the John6 passage, is "those who truly believe in God, He gives to Me (because I'm the Savior)." Harmonizes perfectly with what I just quoted in John8:42.

 

[Ben johnson]

It has nothing to do with what was written about not being able to lose one's salvation after believing in Christ. You are way off on another limb. It will derail the thread if I address what you wrote too much.

You're right, John6 has nothing to do with "losing salvation". Nor does it have anything to do with "predestination" --- Jesus is asserting authority.

"Those who COME to Me, are AUTHORIZED by the Father." No more, no less.

Simply. Jesus said he will lose none of all the Father gives Him.

Lose none of those who believe.

You just gave the answer, and did it very well. Good job, Gene.

JEsus will lose none WHO believe. Those WHO believe are given to Jesus.

...what if belief can be deceived to unbelief? Then JESUS will not have lost them, they will have lost themselves.

This is the danger in thinking "unforfeitable salvation" --- no one can defend against that which he believes is not possible.

Make sense?

 

[brmicke]

Very typical - this post is praised by most of those who do not want to concieve of the posibillity that they have a role to play in their salvation.

God forbid that you who believe this way should have personal responsibility for such an important decision.

Why not take it out of the hands of the person and make it entirely dependant on Election.

Well that notiion was easily dispatched by 2 Pet 1:10.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:
(ASV)

This latest one is easily dispatched by reading the next verse - namely John 6:40. Which you convienently overlooked.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

As you can see (but won't understand) in the verse that continues the thought mentioned in verse 39, Jesus adds a stipulation. That stipulation is the the person believe.

As has been shown previously, the biblical concept of belief is our response to God since He tells us to do it and does not say that He will do it for us.

His helping us in that belief is not the same thing as taking the first step towards or initiating that faith (which is the persons - "confession").

John 3:36 shows that belief cannot be seperated from the biblical concept of obedience or as you call them "works".

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Hab 2:4; Joh 1:12; 3:15-16; 6:47; Ro 1:17; 1Jo 5:10

You people who disagree simply are too scared of losing your salvation to admit that you have a part in it.

After all let's face it, we humans are not infalliable - how can we trust even ourselves with such an important decision as our salvation? We must then convince ourselves of a doctrinal stance that takes this responsibility out of our hands entirely -- Right? Is that not the thoughts in the deepest part of your heart on this matter?

So you try in a very unscriptural manner to convince yourself that you have no responsibiliy whatever. Of course there are millions like you who will support you so you then feel that you are justified in your unscriptural method of thinking.

Returning to the my response to the latest defense of OSAS and Calvinism ---

As you see quoting John 6:39 is deceptive unless you include verse 40.

 

[Ben johnson]

Well that notiion was easily dispatched by 2 Pet 1:10.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:

The context of the verse you're quoting, speaks of godly traits that MUST accompany salvation. The correct translation says "supply IN your faith (list)" --- not "add them to your faith". They are not optional.

Then a man is presented who LACKS these traits; he's called "blind/short-sighted/forgotten-former-purification".

THEREFORE we are to be all the more diligent to make sure of our calling and election; as long as these traits are ours, we are useful and will not "become wretched" (Greek "ptaio", stumble/become-wretched); in THIS way the gates of Heaven will BE abundantly provided to you.

You're completely right, though Peter says it more strongly. Of course, I've conversed with some who say "there is a SPARSE entrance into Heaven for sinners". No, there's not; it's "abundant", or "not at all".

You people who disagree simply are too scared of losing your salvation to admit that you have a part in it.

After all let's face it, we humans are not infalliable - how can we trust even ourselves with such an important decision as our salvation? We must then convince ourselves of a doctrinal stance that takes this responsibility out of our hands entirely -- Right? Is that not the thoughts in the deepest part of your heart on this matter?

So you try in a very unscriptural manner to convince yourself that you have no responsibiliy whatever. Of course there are millions like you who will support you so you then feel that you are justified in your unscriptural method of thinking.

I don't think they're scared, "Brmicke". Most of the Calvinists I've spoken with, here also, are God-fearing kind and loving people. They have just been taught a paradigm that begins with Eph1:4-5, then Rom9:11-21, then Rom8:28-29; on the surface these make very good "predestination passages". But we must look further than the surface (which, to be fair, is not meant as an insult to my Calvinists friends; they DO study much Scripture!). They just haven't made the same connections as we have.

Which of us is right? Ahhhh, that's the point of theological debate. Each of us brings a tray of arguments to the table, and in the end perhaps one set still stands.

YET --- no one LOSES, for we all emerge closer to God, and (I pray) closer to each other in love.

Let us never forget WE ARE ON TRIAL; what they know of God they know from us. May He be in us in enough measure that (Calvinist, or not) they want what we have.

 

[brmicke]

My opinion is that institutional Christianity has tried to make being "saved" so easy that many people professing "salvation" have wandered into error, Calvinism included. The theologian D.Bohnhoffer called it cheap-grace.

This is the "Inclusion" gospel or in contemporary terms the "politically correct" way to present the gospel. This doctrine say's, let everyone go to heaven and you will encounter no oppostion to your preaching. This is the well worn "path of least resistance".

It reached somewhat of a pinnacle in the catholic church in times past - as is seen from the practice of the clergy selling "indulgences".

The once saved always saved theology and calvinism are just another attempt at relieving the individual of accountability towards God.

Jesus however said that the way is narrow and few find it. Unless you lose your life for Jesus sake you will not gain it. Most people would consider that too harsh, but it is the truth.

 

[brmicke]

Thanks Ben -- it is useful to me to learn what verses they (calvinists) base their theology on.

I was very fortunate in my Christian upbringing -

at the point when I was first wondering about these things a mentor of mine answered a question in such as way that after receiving the answer I was a little embarassed at having asked the question.

I asked him - how much do we have to do for God?

He said "as much as you can".

Brian