Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[HOPEOF9]

I read the OP, and not really anything else that has been posted. I just thought I'd put these scriptures in here for the Original poster. Thanks!

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The once saved always saved theology and calvinism are just another attempt at relieving the individual of accountability towards God.

How do you understand this verse ?

heb 2:

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Do the saved sons make it to glory by being brought there by the captain of their salvation or not ? whats your take on this verse ?

 

[brmicke]

Hi Hope of 9 --- Do you really have 9 kids?

I am grateful to you for having posted 2 Peter 2:20. It says it all in a very concise manner ---

Thanks for your comment - Brian

 

[brmicke]

Of course I think it is correct that Jesus will bring many sons to glory.

The question is how - the answer is through faith - which involves the work's referred to as obedience.

Jesus will bring many to glory. So what is the glory and How are they brought there?

Titus 2:11-12. - Grace teaches them to abstain from ungodliness. We are told ---- not to resist the grace of God - by which He does the teaching.

 

[HOPEOF9]

No, not 9 kids, but I'm the YOUNGEST OF 9 KIDS! LOL
I wasn't BRAVE enough to have 9 of my own! Esp since when I was giving birth, they were coming two at a time!

 

[GenemZ]

I read the OP, and not really anything else that has been posted. I just thought I'd put these scriptures in here for the Original poster. Thanks! 2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

It does not say!


2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. For he will go to Hell for what he has refused to accept.


This is why..

1 John 5:16 (New International Version)​

"If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that."


​

​

That has nothing to do about losing one's salvation.

It has everything to do about suffering the sin onto death for refusing the truth we received after we were saved.


The one who reaches the sin onto death will face many sufferings on his retreat from truth as warnings form the Lord. His condition will eventually become worse than what he had known prior to his salvation. When the pollutions of this world he had perviously dragged him down to where he was before he was saved.


It does not say he will end up in Hell.... For such a serious matter? It would come right out and say so.



2 Peter 2:20 speaks about someone who had escaped the pollutions of the world after he was saved!


Rome in that day would shock most of us. The moral atmosphere in that day many would find absolutely shocking and disgusting. This person Peter speaks of had escaped the pollutions of the world by the power of grace that he received after salvation. This one then refused to continue in grace and truth - progressive spiritual sanctification. He longed to return to what he left behind. In turn, this person ended up worse off than before. Because, before he was saved? His own natural strength could sustain himself. No longer will that be the case. He is now a new creation in Christ and would require grace and truth to live happily. He will end up more miserable than he was before. Before he got saved.



In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[sawdust]

Was he condemned for rejecting God?

Yes, but did he lose his salvation because of it? No.



I'm off on holidays tomorrow. I've said all I'm going to say. Take care.


peace

 

[Oye11]

It does not say!


2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. For he will go to Hell for what he has refused to accept.


This is why..

1 John 5:16 (New International Version)​

"If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that."​

​

That has nothing to do about losing one's salvation.

It has everything to do about suffering the sin onto death for refusing the truth we received after we were saved.


The one who reaches the sin onto death will face many sufferings on his retreat from truth as warnings form the Lord. His condition will eventually become worse than what he had known prior to his salvation. When the pollutions of this world he had perviously dragged him down to where he was before he was saved.


It does not say he will end up in Hell.... For such a serious matter? It would come right out and say so.



2 Peter 2:20 speaks about someone who had escaped the pollutions of the world after he was saved!


Rome in that day would shock most of us. The moral atmosphere in that day many would find absolutely shocking and disgusting. This person Peter speaks of had escaped the pollutions of the world by the power of grace that he received after salvation. This one then refused to continue in grace and truth - progressive spiritual sanctification. He longed to return to what he left behind. In turn, this person ended up worse off than before. Because, before he was saved? His own natural strength could sustain himself. No longer will that be the case. He is now a new creation in Christ and would require grace and truth to live happily. He will end up more miserable than he was before. Before he got saved.



In Christ, GeneZ



.

The bible does "come out and say so."


Revelation
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

You speak of those without, not those within. Sheesh, and to the extremes the dispensationalist version of OSAS takes us.

 

[brmicke]

I have wondered how women (similar to your mother) have been pregnant for a decade have endured it.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Of course I think it is correct that Jesus will bring many sons to glory.

The question is how - the answer is through faith - which involves the work's referred to as obedience.

Jesus will bring many to glory. So what is the glory and How are they brought there?

Titus 2:11-12. - Grace teaches them to abstain from ungodliness. We are told ---- not to resist the grace of God - by which He does the teaching.

So its possible for him jesus not tp bring all sons to glory ? Is that what you are insinuating ?

 

[GenemZ]

The bible does "come out and say so."


Revelation
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

You speak of those without, not those within. Sheesh, and to the extremes the dispensationalist version of OSAS takes us.

That quotes from Revelation 22. Its in reference to the Millennial reign of Christ on earth. During that time there will be unbelievers living on earth. These ones will not be allowed into the Holy City of the Lord's throne.

That's all its saying!

It has nothing to do with losing ones salvation.



In Christ, GeneZ




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[Rightglory]

Genez,

That quotes from Revelation 22. Its in reference to the Millennial reign of Christ on earth. During that time there will be unbelievers living on earth. These ones will not be allowed into the Holy City of the Lord's throne.
That's all its saying!
It has nothing to do with losing ones salvation.

It must really be great to rationalize, to create a whole new theory just so one does not have to look at the Truth. Christ, by the way, will never reign on earth, at least, that is what He stated. He is currently reigning and that reign shall never end. His Kingdom is not of this world. Christians reign with Him at this very moment.

 

[GenemZ]

Genez,

It must really be great to rationalize, to create a whole new theory just so one does not have to look at the Truth. Christ, by the way, will never reign on earth, at least, that is what He stated. He is currently reigning and that reign shall never end. His Kingdom is not of this world. Christians reign with Him at this very moment.

OK....

 

[Ben johnson]

My opinion is that institutional Christianity has tried to make being "saved" so easy that many people professing "salvation" have wandered into error, Calvinism included. The theologian D.Bohnhoffer called it cheap-grace.

There are Calvinists who believe "Backslidden-saved", and there are Calvinists who believe "you do not have a license to sin". I expect to see many Calvinists in the clouds with me, when Jesus returns. The only time the issue is important with me, is when it leads someone to apathy.

This is the position spoken of in Rev3:14-22; perhaps they thought they had it "all sewn up"; but they didn't.

I pray that something we've discussed here, will prevent another from "being spewed from His mouth".

This is the "Inclusion" gospel or in contemporary terms the "politically correct" way to present the gospel. This doctrine say's, let everyone go to heaven and you will encounter no oppostion to your preaching. This is the well worn "path of least resistance".

It reached somewhat of a pinnacle in the catholic church in times past - as is seen from the practice of the clergy selling "indulgences".

The once saved always saved theology and calvinism are just another attempt at relieving the individual of accountability towards God.

That's my argument; if GOD chooses, then man is not accountable or responsible. This is still a point of argument here.

Jesus however said that the way is narrow and few find it. Unless you lose your life for Jesus sake you will not gain it. Most people would consider that too harsh, but it is the truth.

In my text, I ask the same question I've asked hundreds of people, in person --- sum up all Jesus was about, all Matthew Mark Luke and John wrote, all James Peter and Jude wrote, every syllable penned by Paul --- sum it all up in ONE WORD. And they can't.

"Love", is close; how many Christians embody the Greatest Commandment? "You shall LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your might, with all your mind and with all your soul."

Do you? Do I? There's always room for each of us to grow in love for Him.

...but if any of us does not LONG to be with Him, forever, then there is no point in going to Heaven.

That's the point --- fellowship with Him. That's what it's all about.

John17:3!!!

No one preaches "the Person(s) of God".

I do.

 

[GenemZ]

ttt
​

John 6:37-40 (New International Version)
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."






.
​

 

[Rightglory]

Genz,

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

this is the Incarnation. It is the whole purpose of Christ doing what man could not do, it is for all mankind. It aligns with Rom 5:18-19, I Cor 15:20-22, Rom 11:32, Col 1:15-20, It is this that makes the following possible.....

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

This is the purpose of our being created, to be in union. It is what man fell from, it is not the fall.
the topic of this thread is ONLY dealing with this last paragraph, not the former.

 

[GenemZ]

Genz,

this is the Incarnation. It is the whole purpose of Christ doing what man could not do, it is for all mankind. It aligns with Rom 5:18-19, I Cor 15:20-22, Rom 11:32, Col 1:15-20, It is this that makes the following possible.....
This is the purpose of our being created, to be in union. It is what man fell from, it is not the fall.
the topic of this thread is ONLY dealing with this last paragraph, not the former.

Is that your way of saying?

That what Jesus said in that passage, does not indicate that we can not lose our salvation some how?

I have no idea what you are getting at, because it seems disconnected from the passage you quoted.



In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[Rightglory]

genez,

Is that your way of saying?
That what Jesus said in that passage, does not indicate that we can not lose our salvation some how?
I have no idea what you are getting at, because it seems disconnected from the passage you quoted.

Vs 39 does not deal at all with the salvation of our souls which is the topic at hand. It is totally about the Work of Christ on the Cross which was to overcome the fall. To free mankind from the condemnation of death through Adam. Christ redeemed, freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin. By His Incarnation, He assumed our fallen, consubstantial, mortal human natures and by His resurrection He raised every single human being to life, immortality. No human being will be lost to death. That is what that particular verse is explaining.
All men will rise from the dead. The purpose of Christ overcoming death is so man, every man can again have a choice to either accept God's offer of union (soul salvation) or reject it.
Thus vs 40 it is repeated for those that believe who will have everlasting life WITH HIM. All men will have life, but not all men will live that eternity WITH Christ.
If Christ did not overcome the fall, all the faith, all the free will whether fallen or perfect would not be able to save any human being.
Your theology bascially has the purpose of our being created as the purpose of Christ on the Cross. When in actuality, Christ redeemed mankind from the fall, so man could do what he was created to do with God from the beginning, even before the fall. The salvation of our soul is nothing more than union with God which is why God created us and from which we fell because of the condemnation of death placed upon all mankind. That is why vs 39 aligns with Rom 11:32, Rom 5:18-19, I Cor 15:20-22, Col 1:15-20 and several more. It is nothing less than the perfection and fulfillment of the Incarnated Christ to redeem His creation from the power of Satan who rules through the power of death. He is the victor over death. And that is physical death.
Now, lets address vs40. If God desires that all men be saved, that all men would come to the knowledge of Him (soul salvatioon), He at least needs to save all men from death. Death is what is described in Gen 3:19. A pile of dust cannot have faith, cannot be in union with God for an eternity. Man, most of all needed life. So man could exercise the Image of God created in Him, to accept freely the call to be in union and communion.
Now, Christ is not the one to give up on any soul. He will continually seek, continually chastise a believer, But in the end, it is the believer and the believer alone that decides if he will spend an etenrity with God or apart from Him. That freedom is why Christ redeemed mankind. He was not willing first of all to let His created order dissolve into nothingness by death. Secondly, He was surely not going to permit any creature created in His Image to be destroyed when He created them, all of them to be in union with Him, but to be free in that choice.
Thirdly, the ultimate goal is that all men come into union with Him. God was not going to either prejudge a man, nor surely permit all creation to die because of the sin of one man, one time. He wanted all men to have that very same choice as Adam. This is why the text of Rom 11:32 so beautifully sums up this understanding.
He showed mercy to all of mankind, so He could be just in permitting man to determine his own end. God would simply pass judgement on the decision of man who freely made the choice and thus has full responsibility for the choice. How merciful and just is that and the extent of the Love of God which not even hell will separate Him from His creatures.
Man is the ONLY person that can depart from Christ. That is why all the warnings regarding the loss of faith. We are saved through our faith, so if we have no faith, or become unfaithful, we are no longer being saved. If we truly reject Christ and continually reject either the Holy Spirit's calling or the chastisement, we will and can quench the Spirit. God can and will consign us, even in this life to hell. Read Rom 1:26, with the same meaning as the vine and branches being cut off because of rebellion or forsaking God.
The security of your soul lies fully within your capacity and ability. God has given all men what is needed to believe. It depends on the desire of our heart. It is an endurance run, that is why we need the Armour of God.
Those who support a theory of OSAS have no need for any armour. Could you explain why it is necessary? The view puts God in charge of your will and He will not let you give in to sin and the devil, thus no armour is necessary.

 

[GenemZ]

genez,

Vs 39 does not deal at all with the salvation of our souls which is the topic at hand. It is totally about the Work of Christ on the Cross which was to overcome the fall. To free mankind from the condemnation of death through Adam. Christ redeemed, freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin. By His Incarnation, He assumed our fallen, consubstantial, mortal human natures and by His resurrection He raised every single human being to life, immortality. No human being will be lost to death. That is what that particular verse is explaining.
All men will rise from the dead. The purpose of Christ overcoming death is so man, every man can again have a choice to either accept God's offer of union (soul salvation) or reject it.
Thus vs 40 it is repeated for those that believe who will have everlasting life WITH HIM. All men will have life, but not all men will live that eternity WITH Christ.
If Christ did not overcome the fall, all the faith, all the free will whether fallen or perfect would not be able to save any human being.
Your theology bascially has the purpose of our being created as the purpose of Christ on the Cross. When in actuality, Christ redeemed mankind from the fall, so man could do what he was created to do with God from the beginning, even before the fall. The salvation of our soul is nothing more than union with God which is why God created us and from which we fell because of the condemnation of death placed upon all mankind. That is why vs 39 aligns with Rom 11:32, Rom 5:18-19, I Cor 15:20-22, Col 1:15-20 and several more. It is nothing less than the perfection and fulfillment of the Incarnated Christ to redeem His creation from the power of Satan who rules through the power of death. He is the victor over death. And that is physical death.
Now, lets address vs40. If God desires that all men be saved, that all men would come to the knowledge of Him (soul salvatioon), He at least needs to save all men from death. Death is what is described in Gen 3:19. A pile of dust cannot have faith, cannot be in union with God for an eternity. Man, most of all needed life. So man could exercise the Image of God created in Him, to accept freely the call to be in union and communion.
Now, Christ is not the one to give up on any soul. He will continually seek, continually chastise a believer, But in the end, it is the believer and the believer alone that decides if he will spend an etenrity with God or apart from Him. That freedom is why Christ redeemed mankind. He was not willing first of all to let His created order dissolve into nothingness by death. Secondly, He was surely not going to permit any creature created in His Image to be destroyed when He created them, all of them to be in union with Him, but to be free in that choice.
Thirdly, the ultimate goal is that all men come into union with Him. God was not going to either prejudge a man, nor surely permit all creation to die because of the sin of one man, one time. He wanted all men to have that very same choice as Adam. This is why the text of Rom 11:32 so beautifully sums up this understanding.
He showed mercy to all of mankind, so He could be just in permitting man to determine his own end. God would simply pass judgement on the decision of man who freely made the choice and thus has full responsibility for the choice. How merciful and just is that and the extent of the Love of God which not even hell will separate Him from His creatures.
Man is the ONLY person that can depart from Christ. That is why all the warnings regarding the loss of faith. We are saved through our faith, so if we have no faith, or become unfaithful, we are no longer being saved. If we truly reject Christ and continually reject either the Holy Spirit's calling or the chastisement, we will and can quench the Spirit. God can and will consign us, even in this life to hell. Read Rom 1:26, with the same meaning as the vine and branches being cut off because of rebellion or forsaking God.
The security of your soul lies fully within your capacity and ability. God has given all men what is needed to believe. It depends on the desire of our heart. It is an endurance run, that is why we need the Armour of God.
Those who support a theory of OSAS have no need for any armour. Could you explain why it is necessary? The view puts God in charge of your will and He will not let you give in to sin and the devil, thus no armour is necessary.

Really? That's so?

I thought it meant this..

John 6:37-40 (New International Version)​

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. ​

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ​

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. ​

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."​

​

.

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Of all the texts I gave to you, which one makes an exception to the above sentence?

​