Can Christians lose their salvation?

[LoveofTruth]

To all:

Paul said to those in Galatians 1 and 3, that they once were in the grace of salvation and received the Spirit by the hearing of faith then were removed from that grace and sone had fallen from grace and Christ would profit them nothing.

He also stood in doubt of them, those who once received the Spirit by the hearing of faith. This doesn’t sound like he preached eternal security or once in grace always in grace.

Consider,

“ Galatians 1:6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:”

Galatians 3:2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

And some had to be born again again (to have Christ formed in them through faith)

“ Galatians 4:19. My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,20. I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.”

Standing in doubt is not giving eternal security

 

[_Dave_]

And when speaking of the nation of Israel not loosing their salvation, this is strange talk. Not all in the nation were believers. A person was not saved by simply belonging to the nation of Israel.

Consider this passage from my previous post:

Just like the nation Israel didn't lose its "salvation" by being temporarily deprived of the promised land because of their unbelief that God would take care of them, Paul is implying to believers here that there would be consequences for their sin of not believing God's word. And nowhere does he say these believers contemplating sin will lose their place in the Kingdom, any more than the nation Israel will lose out on God's promise to them.

You missed the point of me putting salvation in this passage in quote marks. I guess I was just trying to be too clever, and wanting to use one word instead of having to type "didn't lose out on its chance to move into the land of Canaan that God had promised them." IOW, "salvation" is a figure of speech for all that.

Anyway, I stand by the point that I made to LoveGodsWord that there are several interpretations for understanding Hebrews 6, and one of them is right. Maybe my interpretation is not the right one. But the one interpretation that many seem to want to shoehorn it into absolutely cannot be right because it goes against the solid biblical doctrine of eternal security.

I guess God gave us Hebrews 6:4-6 in order to force us to do diligent study on the subject of eternal security by getting out of the eisegetical mindset and on to a true exegetical study of His word.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Consider this passage from my previous post:



You missed the point of me putting salvation in this passage in quote marks. I guess I was just trying to be too clever, and wanting to use one word instead of having to type "didn't lose out on its chance to move into the land of Canaan that God had promised them." IOW, "salvation" is a figure of speech for all that.

Anyway, I stand by the point that I made to LoveGodsWord that there are several interpretations for understanding Hebrews 6, and one of them is right. Maybe my interpretation is not the right one. But the one interpretation that many seem to want to shoehorn it into absolutely cannot be right because it goes against the solid biblical doctrine of eternal security.

I guess God gave us Hebrews 6:4-6 in order to force us to do diligent study on the subject of eternal security by getting out of the eisegetical mindset and on to a true exegetical study of His word.

There are so many verses I could bring to show that a believer can loose his salvation and end up in the lake of fire that we would be here all day.

But as I showed in Hebrews 3 holy brethren in Christ, (the writer himself included) must guard against an evil heart of unbelief through the hardening of their heart by sin. Unbelief is not faith and unless we continue in the faith we can depart from God through and evil heart of unbelief and be moved away from the hope of the gospel. As the text CLEARLY says to the unbiased reader.

No amount of distortion of scripture can run from these and many other plain scriptures.

I ask a question here. Is it possible in your doctrine for a believer fall into murder and hate his brother?

 

[LoveofTruth]

I guess God gave us Hebrews 6:4-6 in order to force us to do diligent study on the subject of eternal security by getting out of the eisegetical mindset and on to a true exegetical study of His word.

No, God gave Hebrews to help those who are tempted to sin and who were struggling under the law to be free and walk in faith not works of the law. And to understand the new covenant showing that the old covenant was fading away ready to vanish.

A believer in Christ could be in danger again if they went back under the law and sacrificed animals again and were bound up again. The words of Hebrews help them to see the end of the old covenant and the purpose of diverse washings and carnal ordinances and sacrifices etc (Hebrews 9). And to see Jesus Christ who is the substance of the shadows.

Many groups today struggle with the law and old covenant such as the messianic groups and others. They should read Hebrews many times in prayer and 2 Cor 3:6-16.

 

[_Dave_]

I ask a question here. Is it possible in your doctrine for a believer fall into murder and hate his brother?

That's a good question, and the answer very much supports OSAS.

King David is a murderer and vengeful hater in 2 Samuel.

He is also in the Hall of the Faithful in Hebrews 11. And was a man "after God's own heart."

It's not to say that he didn't suffer tragic consequences in the flesh while on earth for his deeds.

But this very succinctly points out that the verses the "antis" like to use to prove losing salvation often should be taken to mean facing extreme consequences, up to but not including losing salvation.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Amen I am Glad u know what it takes to be saved during the grace dispensation

Would you like to address the tribulation scenario now?

Salvation in Christ has always been the same from Abel to the end for both Jews and Gentiles. By grace through faith. The Jews struggled under the law and stumbled at Christ.

Are you a dispensationalist?

Do you see Janes and Paul preaching different gospels or the sane gospel? Or Peter and Paul preaching the sane gospel or different gospels?

 

[_Dave_]

A believer in Christ could be in danger again if they went back under the law and sacrificed animals again and were bound up again.

Again, that proves my point that they were not fully committed to Christ. Do you honestly believe that a born-again Christian, indwelt with the Holy Spirit would give up his salvation in order to perform ancient rituals? I mean, what do you think it means to be indwelt with the Holy Spirit? It's not like clothes that you can put on and take off according to your daily whim?

 

[LoveofTruth]

That's a good question, and the answer very much supports OSAS.

King David is a murderer and vengeful hater in 2 Samuel.

He is also in the Hall of the Faithful in Hebrews 11. And was a man "after God's own heart."

It's not to say that he didn't suffer tragic consequences in the flesh while on earth for his deeds.

But this very succinctly points out that the verses the "antis" like to use to prove losing salvation often should be taken to mean facing extreme consequences, up to but not including losing salvation.

You are wrong here again. Sadly....

Please read all this short post.

David repented of his sin and asked God not to cast him away, knowing that this was possible. He had to be restored again to the joy of his salvation. But if he didn’t repent and believe he could have been lost and cast away.

But the reason I ask this, is that John shows that any person (a believer or unbeliever) who hates his brother does not have eternal life abiding (remaining, dwelling) in him any more.

Consider,

“ 1 John 3:15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”

So believers in Christ have eternal life abiding in them. That eternal life is Jesus Christ himself as we read in 1 John 1:2, 1 John 5:20. So if when we harden our heart and hate our brother we are murderers in our heart and no longer have Jesus Christ (eternal life) abiding (remaining, dwelling) in us, and so are not in the life and salvation and must repent to come back into that life through faith . For Christ dwells (abides) in our heart by faith.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Again, that proves my point that they were not fully committed to Christ. Do you honestly believe that a born-again Christian, indwelt with the Holy Spirit would give up his salvation in order to perform ancient rituals? I mean, what do you think it means to be indwelt with the Holy Spirit? It's not like clothes that you can put on and take off according to your daily whim?

I try not to believe my own reasonings but seek to be led by the Spirit and I believe what is written. Scripture clearly shows that the Jewish believers began in the spirit but many of them went back under the law again. Yes it does show this .

Consider the evidence.

Paul said to those in Galatians 1 and 3, that they once were in the grace of salvation and received the Spirit by the hearing of faith then were removed from that grace and sone had fallen from grace and Christ would profit them nothing.

He also stood in doubt of them, those who once received the Spirit by the hearing of faith. This doesn’t sound like he preached eternal security or once in grace always in grace.

Consider,

“ Galatians 1:6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:”

Galatians 3:2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

And some had to be born again again (to have Christ formed in them through faith)

“ Galatians 4:19. My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,20. I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.”

Standing in doubt is not giving eternal security

 

[_Dave_]

“ 1 John 3:15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”

1John is one of my favorite books of the Bible. The entirety of the book is a way for believers to test to see if they are truly saved. The ones who fail the tests are not saved. This is a simplified synopsis, there's much more to it, of course.

To paraphrase: John is saying that loving your fellow Christians is a sign of being born again. If you hate someone bad enough to want to murder him, then the checksum doesn't add up, and you are not a true believer. You are deceiving yourself.

That's what it all comes down to LoveofTruth. I'm betting that every single verse you offer as proof of losing salvation comes down to either they were never really saved, or they are suffering earthly consequences for their sin and/or disobedience up to but not including losing their place in the Kingdom, or they are going to lose rewards once they enter the Kingdom.

You see all of those as "losing salvation." But, it simply is not scriptural.

 

[LoveofTruth]

1John is one of my favorite books of the Bible. The entirety of the book is a way for believers to test to see if they are truly saved. The ones who fail the tests are not saved. This is a simplified synopsis, there's much more to it, of course.

To paraphrase: John is saying that loving your fellow Christians is a sign of being born again. If you hate someone bad enough to want to murder him, then the checksum doesn't add up, and you are not a true believer. You are deceiving yourself.

That's what it all comes down to LoveofTruth. I'm betting that every single verse you offer as proof of losing salvation comes down to either they were never really saved, or they are suffering earthly consequences for their sin and/or disobedience up to but not including losing their place in the Kingdom, or they are going to lose rewards once they enter the Kingdom.

You see all of those as "losing salvation." But, it simply is not scriptural.

You are wrong you trapped yourself here. You said that King David was a murderer and we know before this he was a believer and he fell.

John says that if anyone hates his brother this would include any believer hardening against another and getting bitter and hatred. If so he is also a murderer even if he did not murder yet.

This is for any believer also with such a waning.

This has to do with “abiding” (remaining or dwelling) in Christ. If a person is abiding in Christ then is hardened and has an evil heart of unbelief they can depart. And we read about this abiding

1 John 2:9. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.10. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.”

Paul warns believers of such things as well.

Ephesians 4:31. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:”

2 Corinthians 12:20. For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:21. And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.”

And read

1 Corinthians 6:9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

 

[_Dave_]

OK, LoveofTruth, you're just throwing verses up against a wall now hoping that one of them will stick.

About 1John, do you understand the difference between committing a sin and living a lifestyle of unrepented sin? 1John is all about examining yourself to be sure that you are truly saved and are not allowing a lifestyle of sin to rule your life; which the Holy Spirit indwelling in us prevents. If that is your condition, then John says you are not going into eternal life with the Father because YOU ARE NOT REALLY SAVED.

1John is all about examination, and not about enumerating sins. If that weren't true God wouldn't tell us:

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

So, yes, believers sin. Sometimes egregiously. But those sins were forgiven for us the day that Christ hung on the cross.

However, and please, please, please get this point. John is saying that if we harbor in our hearts a strong desire to murder a brother, and live a lifestyle reflecting that, then we are very likely not saved. It DOES NOT say that if we commit murder, or any other sin, (see just above), we forfeit the Kingdom.

As to David, you asked me:

Is it possible in your doctrine for a believer fall into murder and hate his brother?

And I answered with King David as an example. In light of your desire to trap me with 1John I see now that King David was not the appropriate answer. But I believe I've now answered your trap question adequately in this post.

However, I hope you do understand that there is a big difference between Old Testament-time salvation and New Testament-time salvation.

Yes, truly, in Old Testament times salvation was by faith and works, with faith being the most important of the two. Otherwise, virtually all of the Hebrews 11 Hall of the Faithful would never have made it. David committed grievous sins, but also repented from his heart. In Old Testament times there could be a point where the Holy Spirit would leave one, but as we see with David He could come again.

In the New Testament era, salvation is purely by the grace of God through faith in Christ, whose dying on the cross imputed to us all payment for all our sins, insured and protected forever by the Holy Spirit.

So, when you said this, you were right:

David repented of his sin and asked God not to cast him away, knowing that this was possible. He had to be restored again to the joy of his salvation. But if he didn’t repent and believe he could have been lost and cast away.

But you didn't realize, I guess, that that was then, and it is not the same now. You can't use Old Testament saving/falling experiences to prove a New Testament losing-salvation doctrine. They are absolutely not the same.

 

[_Dave_]

There are so many verses I could bring to show that a believer can loose his salvation and end up in the lake of fire that we would be here all day.

I don't mind, as long as you remain considerate and respectful.

Go ahead and pick a verse that you think exemplifies losing salvation, and I'll see what I can do to prove that it doesn't.

Obviously, we're done with Hebrews, and have to agree to disagree, but I'm willing to try some others.

 

[Guojing]

Salvation in Christ has always been the same from Abel to the end for both Jews and Gentiles. By grace through faith. The Jews struggled under the law and stumbled at Christ.

Are you a dispensationalist?

Do you see Janes and Paul preaching different gospels or the sane gospel? Or Peter and Paul preaching the sane gospel or different gospels?

By grace through faith yes, but the question you have to be clear is, Faith in what? Let's use a simple example from what you have used.

Abel was saved by grace through faith. How did he show his faith?
We, after the cross, are also likewise saved by grace through faith, but how do we show our faith?

Once you are clear about the distinction above, then you will be clearer what am I trying to say.

 

[BNR32FAN]

His sheep will follow him as long as they remain sheep. And no one can remove anyone else's salvation. We are not prey to anyone else when it comes to our security. But to say that people who walk away from Christ were never saved in the first place is a cop-out. I have seen otherwise and reneging on salvation does not conflict with scripture. There is certainly eternal security for any believer who remains a believer and desires God's presence in his life.

I believe John 15:1-10 supports your statements friend. Jesus said The Father cuts off every branch in Me that doesn’t bear fruit. He also said anyone who does not abide in Me will be cast away to wither and cast away to be burned. A person cannot abide/remain in Christ if they have never been in Christ.

 

[LoveofTruth]

OK, LoveofTruth, you're just throwing verses up against a wall now hoping that one of them will stick.

About 1John, do you understand the difference between committing a sin and living a lifestyle of unrepented sin? 1John is all about examining yourself to be sure that you are truly saved and are not allowing a lifestyle of sin to rule your life; which the Holy Spirit indwelling in us prevents. If that is your condition, then John says you are not going into eternal life with the Father because YOU ARE NOT REALLY SAVED.

1John is all about examination, and not about enumerating sins. If that weren't true God wouldn't tell us:

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

So, yes, believers sin. Sometimes egregiously. But those sins were forgiven for us the day that Christ hung on the cross.

However, and please, please, please get this point. John is saying that if we harbor in our hearts a strong desire to murder a brother, and live a lifestyle reflecting that, then we are very likely not saved. It DOES NOT say that if we commit murder, or any other sin, (see just above), we forfeit the Kingdom.

As to David, you asked me:



And I answered with King David as an example. In light of your desire to trap me with 1John I see now that King David was not the appropriate answer. But I believe I've now answered your trap question adequately in this post.

However, I hope you do understand that there is a big difference between Old Testament-time salvation and New Testament-time salvation.

Yes, truly, in Old Testament times salvation was by faith and works, with faith being the most important of the two. Otherwise, virtually all of the Hebrews 11 Hall of the Faithful would never have made it. David committed grievous sins, but also repented from his heart. In Old Testament times there could be a point where the Holy Spirit would leave one, but as we see with David He could come again.

In the New Testament era, salvation is purely by the grace of God through faith in Christ, whose dying on the cross imputed to us all payment for all our sins, insured and protected forever by the Holy Spirit.

So, when you said this, you were right:



But you didn't realize, I guess, that that was then, and it is not the same now. You can't use Old Testament saving/falling experiences to prove a New Testament losing-salvation doctrine. They are absolutely not the same.

How many murders does a person have to commit to be a murderer? The answer , one. He doesn’t have to be only in a lifestyle of murder to be a murderer.

Also all OT saints were saved as we are today by grace through faith and we see the same salvation here,

Romans 4:3. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.4. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.6. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,..,9. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness....11. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:12. And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.13. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

By grace through faith yes, but the question you have to be clear is, Faith in what? Let's use a simple example from what you have used.

Abel was saved by grace through faith. How did he show his faith?
We, after the cross, are also likewise saved by grace through faith, but how do we show our faith?

Once you are clear about the distinction above, then you will be clearer what am I trying to say.

In the OT men had to repent of their sin and trust and believe in God’s righteousness and his provision. Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice and we read of Jesus also telling the OT saints of what to do when he says ,

Matthew 5:6. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.”

This “righteousness of God was witnessed in the O T and revealed in Jesus Christ and his work

Romans 3:21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;22. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:... 25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.”


This righteousness of God was also in the OT spoken of

Psalm 40:10. I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.11. Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me.”

 

[Guojing]

In the OT men had to repent of their sin and trust and believe in God’s righteousness and his provision. Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice and we read of Jesus also telling the OT saints of what to do when he says ,

You said it yourself, Abel offered a "more excellent sacrifice". It was that act from him that resulted in him being saved. Cain did not, and Genesis record God's words to him in Genesis 4:6-7

6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Isn't it clear that faith during that time required Abel to "do well"? God himself told Cain that he would have been accepted too if he doest well, means offering the same sacrifice as Abel, not just believe in God's promise.

If Abel merely believed God but fail to offer the correct sacrifice, would he have been saved?

Likewise, if Noah believed God's promise but did not build an ark, would he have been saved?

If Rahab believed God's promise but did not hide the spies, would she have been saved?

But for us now, we believed that Jesus has completed all the works required on our behalf, and we cease from our own works and trust in him. That is faith for us now, which was different from faith in the past.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You said it yourself, Abel offered a "more excellent sacrifice". It was that act from him that resulted in him being saved. Cain did not, and Genesis record God's words to him in Genesis 4:6-7

6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Isn't it clear that faith during that time required Abel to "do well"? God himself told Cain that he would have been accepted too if he doest well, means offering the same sacrifice as Abel, not just believe in God's promise.

If Abel merely believed God but fail to offer the correct sacrifice, would he have been saved?

Likewise, if Noah believed God's promise but did not build an ark, would he have been saved?

If Rahab believed God's promise but did not hide the spies, would she have been saved?

But for us now, we believed that Jesus has completed all the works required on our behalf, and we cease from our own works and trust in him. That is faith for us now, which was different from faith in the past.

All believer can show their faith. When they have faith Christ dwells in them as he was in Abel and he works in them they can then show forth the life.

 

[Guojing]

All believer can show their faith. When they have faith Christ dwells in them as he was in Abel and he works in them they can then show forth the life.

So do you agree that our good news about salvation cannot be exactly the same as the good news that was presented in the OT? Gospel is the term for good news.

Both are by grace thru faith, but the requirements to show faith varies depending on what God revealed then and now.