Can we lose our salvation?

[Ivan Hlavanda]

What is the concrete evidence that a person has salvation? How does he know for sure?

The only evidence is the Holy Spirit. John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

A person who is genuinely born again, has a new heart, has a new life (2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.) . Examine your self. What are your affections? What do you love? What do you desire and what motivates you? If they are Godly, then that is the work of the Holy Spirit. If they are wordily, sinful, no matter what you claim, no matter what everybody thinks of you, if your heart desires sin, loves the world, is motivated by personal desire and lust, you have not been changed. Our hearts are sinful, they do not desire the things of God, therefore for one to lead a Godly life, He must be given a new heart that is capable of loving God. And how can we tell it's true love? John 14:15 '“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.' We cannot keep God's commandments without the Holy Spirit. God did not give commandments, because we can keep them, He gave them to show us that we can't and we need a Saviour.

As I said, if you are truly born again, you will resemble Christ more and more, and the Holy Spirit will produce the fruit in you Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.

Do you seek relationship with God? Do you have an intimate relationship with Him? If yes, then you are truly His. Does it bother you that you sin and you desire to obey? An unsaved person doesn't care about their sin. How you seen an unsaved person care that they sin?

The NT talks a lot about walking a Godly life by the power of Holy Spirit. I am sure you can find many texts.

 

[Carl Emerson]

My point is this. You claimed: The seven Spirits of God that indwell us are also referred to in Revelation.

But none of the references says that the seven Spirits indwell us.

There are two issues here that you are trying to insist must be combined into one...

Revelation shows us about the Holy Spirit having seven aspects.

Jer 32:40 speaks of the indwelling and specifically focuses on one aspect that seals salvation.

...and you have a problem with that ???

 

[tonychanyt]

The Seven Spirits of God are the Holy Spirit that indwells us.

verse?

 

[tonychanyt]

A person who is genuinely born again

Is it possible for someone to lose his salvation?

 

[enoob57]

The English word "save" or "salvation" is polysemantic. It has at least the following meanings:

1. It could mean being physically rescued at a point in time situation (Exodus 14:13, H3444, יְשׁוּעָה yeshuah). In this case, you may need to be rescued again. You can be rescued or saved multiple times. The only places in the OT where yeshuah is used unambiguously as saving people from sins are in Eze 36:29 and 37:23.
2. It could mean being accepted officially by a certain church/denomination. When you lose your membership, you lose this salvation.
3. It could describe a shallow Christian who is a Christian in name only (1 John 2:19). He looks like a Christian and talks like a Christian. Instead of serving God, he wants God to serve him. After a while, he goes away because he no longer finds God useful.
4. It could describe a serious Christian. He thinks he has been regenerated. He is in the faith (2Co 13:5, Col 1:23) and performs Christian works sincerely for years but departs from the faith eventually (1 Tim 4:1).
5. It could mean that your name is written in the Book of Life. Later, God may erase or at least threaten to erase that name, and you may lose this type of salvation, Ex 32:32, Rev 3:5.
6. It could mean that you have the nascent Paraclete dwelling in you, but later on you abandon him.
7. Finally, it could mean being saved from the physical now onto eternity. The Paraclete dwells in you presently. You keep growing in the Spirit and abiding in Christ for the rest of your life.

Can you lose your salvation?

Yes, in many ways: John 15:2, Romans 11:22, Hebrews 6:4, 1 Corinthians 15:2.

Can you lose your Paraclete?

It is possible, but I don't think I can. The Paraclete does what he does. He chooses to dwell in a person by making a direct connection with the person's human spirit.

Does this mean that we are free to sin?

No, I am not asserting unconditional eternal security. If the Paraclete dwells in you, you abide in Jesus. As long as you abide in Jesus, you are saved.

If it is dependent upon you to keep then your salvation is work based and unacceptable to God:
Titus 3:5 (KJV)
[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
His presence in us is a sealed promise of God:

How Does the Holy Spirit

Don Stewart :: How Does the Holy Spirit

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[tonychanyt]

If it is dependent upon you to keep then your salvation is work based and unacceptable to God

Right. See JUSTIFICATION by works, grace, or faith? and follow up there.

 

[Carl Emerson]

verse?

Really ?

2 = 2 = 4

Four may not be explicitly stated yet true.

From your background you seem to want to find truth with the tools of rationalisation and logic when trying to understand Scripture.

This will never present the full picture as there are gems of Truth that He reveals as we devotionally interact with Scripture and Him.

 

[tonychanyt]

This will never present the full picture as there are gems of Truth

Right, see A Disciplined Probabilistic Approach to Biblical Hermeneutics.

that He reveals as we devotionally interact with Scripture and Him.

Right.

My point is that how do you convince others who are not you? Will you use objective logic, or will you say God told you so subjectively?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Right, see A Disciplined Probabilistic Approach to Biblical Hermeneutics.


Right.

My point is that how do you convince others who are not you? Will you use objective logic, or will you say God told you so subjectively?

I think we must be ready to give account and leave the response in His hands.

So share naturally and 'matter of facturally' - job done - responsibility fulfilled.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I might add that I took over five years out of my life to devotionally read scripture only with no other references.

 

[enoob57]

I think Tony makes a good point... The choice in Biblical interpretation can be subjective or objective. Subjective is you determining the read through intuition, emotion, thought, internal claiming the Holy Spirit. Objective is a Biblical hermeneutic allowing Bible to speak for Itself...

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Is it possible for someone to lose his salvation?

No.

When a person is saved, it is because Jesus Christ was judged instead of that person. The penalty for sin is death, but because the sinless Saviour died, this penalty is invalid. Because Christ was judged in believer's place, there is no more judgement.

Christ also paid the full penalty for all the sins of every believer. Therefore, if you are in Christ, all of your sins have been paid for. That does not mean we are free to sin, our sins still have consequences and are deadly, but the wrath of God is no longer on you, as Christ took that wrath on Himself.

Jesus Christ did purchase the believers on the cross. They belong to God. That means they are annointed and reconciled to God.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think Tony makes a good point... The choice in Biblical interpretation can be subjective or objective. Subjective is you determining the read through intuition, emotion, thought, internal claiming the Holy Spirit. Objective is a Biblical hermeneutic allowing Bible to speak for Itself...

There is a third option - devotional...

Seeking the Holy Spirit to bring revelation, conviction and correction as we read.

 

[Bones49]

If it is dependent upon you to keep then your salvation is work based and unacceptable to God:

I would contend that if it's not dependent on you, then you were never saved. If maintaining salvation isn't dependent on you, then obtaining salvation isn't dependent on you, therefore you didn't choose it, therefore you can never be saved. I guess the basis for this thesis is that salvation involved the willful acceptance of Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.

 

[Bones49]

My point is that how do you convince others who are not you? Will you use objective logic, or will you say God told you so subjectively?

You don't, because you can't, isn't that part of the point. No one can come to God unless he draws them to himself. Your purpose is to be a sanctified bearer of the Holy Spirit, so through you he can convict them of the truth of your words.

 

[Bones49]

No.

When a person is saved, it is because Jesus Christ was judged instead of that person. The penalty for sin is death, but because the sinless Saviour died, this penalty is invalid. Because Christ was judged in believer's place, there is no more judgement.

Christ also paid the full penalty for all the sins of every believer. Therefore, if you are in Christ, all of your sins have been paid for. That does not mean we are free to sin, our sins still have consequences and are deadly, but the wrath of God is no longer on you, as Christ took that wrath on Himself.

Jesus Christ did purchase the believers on the cross. They belong to God. That means they are annointed and reconciled to God.

No. How? Doesn't the bible clearly express that it is possible for Christians to fall away? Matt 24:24; Hebrews 6:4: Hebrews 10:29, 2 Peter 2:15. Further, the consistent reminders to endure in the faith would be pointless if we cannot loose our salvation.
Also consider Israel, God's elect nation, who for most of the OT were not living according to God's law - i.e. living in a backslidden state. If the OT is given as instruction for us, then if the lesson isn't that it is possible to loose our salvation, then what is the lesson?
Dare I then consider Church history, where it would seem for most of it also the Church has been in a backslidden state. Therefore, if it was ever God's church, then how did God's church backslide, if his people cannot?

 

[enoob57]

There is a third option - devotional...

Seeking the Holy Spirit to bring revelation, conviction and correction as we read.

I think you and I are clear on this... I seek God only through His Scripture and this as I see, according to God and His Word, there is no other means available to His Children at this time... we will have to agree to disagree with one another on this count!

 

[enoob57]

I would contend that if it's not dependent on you, then you were never saved. If maintaining salvation isn't dependent on you, then obtaining salvation isn't dependent on you, therefore you didn't choose it, therefore you can never be saved. I guess the basis for this thesis is that salvation involved the willful acceptance of Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.

It is the Scripture that produces faith so as to believe in Jesus
Romans 10:17 (KJV)
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
John 8:32 (KJV)
[32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 17:17 (KJV)
[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

It is as the parable of the prodigal son:
His discission to return to his Father did not save him as it was totally up to the Father on what He did with the son.

 

[Bones49]

It is the Scripture that produces faith so as to believe in Jesus
Romans 10:17 (KJV)
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
John 8:32 (KJV)
[32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 17:17 (KJV)
[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

It is as the parable of the prodigal son:
His discission to return to his Father did not save him as it was totally up to the Father on what He did with the son.

Why are you talking about faith? I didn't say anything about faith.

Also, isn't the discussion about whether we can loose our salvation? My point was that if we can't loose our salvation, then we also can't choose to be saved, so therefore we aren't , i.e. that for salvation to be genuine, it must be a result of free will, and thus through free will we must also be able to walk away and loose salvation.

the prodigal son. Yes 100%
But, he never would have been saved, if he didn't return to the father - if he didn't choose to repent, of his own free will, the father would never have saved him. So therefore, thank you, you have proved my point for me! Yes, the prodigal son did not save himself, but his repentance, which he initiated of his own free will, is what allowed the father to save him. A perfect picture of how it is between God and man (perhaps lacking any prompting in the prodigal son's heart by the Holy Spirit to encourage him to decide to return).

 

[enoob57]

Why are you talking about faith? I didn't say anything about faith.

Also, isn't the discussion about whether we can loose our salvation? My point was that if we can't loose our salvation, then we also can't choose to be saved, so therefore we aren't , i.e. that for salvation to be genuine, it must be a result of free will, and thus through free will we must also be able to walk away and loose salvation.

the prodigal son. Yes 100%
But, he never would have been saved, if he didn't return to the father - if he didn't choose to repent, of his own free will, the father would never have saved him. So therefore, thank you, you have proved my point for me! Yes, the prodigal son did not save himself, but his repentance, which he initiated of his own free will, is what allowed the father to save him. A perfect picture of how it is between God and man (perhaps lacking any prompting in the prodigal son's heart by the Holy Spirit to encourage him to decide to return).

Yes a hungry belly.... all men are naturally drawn to the fact God is by just being brought into this creation:
Romans 1:20 (KJV)
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
but my point was it's not a work but a coming to the truth produced by God's Word...