Can Christians lose their salvation?

[_Dave_]

Do you agree that by saying

If you are saved, you won't take the mark,

is equivalent to saying

If you take the mark, you are not saved?

I'm not sure what you are getting at with "equivalent."

What I said was, "And in that case they were never really saved." Which is not the same as you saying they, "are not saved?"

Your way implies that they become unsaved when they take the mark. And that is definitely not what I am saying.

 

[Guojing]

I'm not sure what you are getting at with "equivalent."

What I said was, "And in that case they were never really saved." Which is not the same as you saying they, "are not saved?"

Your way implies that they become unsaved when they take the mark. And that is definitely not what I am saying.

This is basically modus tollens. Saying P implies Q is equivalent to saying not Q implies not P.

 

[_Dave_]

This is basically modus tollens. Saying P implies Q is equivalent to saying not Q implies not P.

With that in mind, if I rephrase your question I would agree they are equivalent.

Do you agree that by saying

If you are saved, you won't take the mark,

is equivalent to saying

If you take the mark, you were not saved?

 

[Guojing]

With that in mind, if I rephrase your question I would agree they are equivalent.

Do you agree that by saying

If you are saved, you won't take the mark,

is equivalent to saying

If you take the mark, you were not saved?

Okay, if that is what you meant, does it mean that salvation will be by faith AND works during the Tribulation period?

 

[_Dave_]

Okay, if that is what you meant, does it mean that salvation will be by faith AND works during the Tribulation period?

No. Salvation is never by works. If you think that is what I meant, then you are misunderstanding what I wrote.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I do not believe we are locked into Christ against our wills.

No one believes that.

 

[Guojing]

No. Salvation is never by works. If you think that is what I meant, then you are misunderstanding what I wrote.

So if its by grace thru faith alone, suppose we are in the Tribulation period year 1, and someone at that time followed Romans 10:9 and 1 Cor 15 and put his faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection.

For the rest of the 7 years, he, or anyone else, won't know whether he is really saved until he can live thru those years rejecting the mark of the beast. And that, somehow, is not a work that he must do.

Is that what you are saying?

 

[BigRed009]

So if its by grace thru faith alone, suppose we are in the Tribulation period year 1, and someone at that time followed Romans 10:9 and 1 Cor 15 and put his faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection.

For the rest of the 7 years, he, or anyone else, won't know whether he is really saved until he can live thru those years rejecting the mark of the beast. And that, somehow, is not a work that he must do.

Is that what you are saying?

Ephesians 2:8-9 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Titus 3:5 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

 

[Guojing]

Ephesians 2:8-9 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Titus 3:5 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Amen I am Glad u know what it takes to be saved during the grace dispensation

Would you like to address the tribulation scenario now?

 

[_Dave_]

So if its by grace thru faith alone, suppose we are in the Tribulation period year 1, and someone at that time followed Romans 10:9 and 1 Cor 15 and put his faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection.

For the rest of the 7 years, he, or anyone else, won't know whether he is really saved until he can live thru those years rejecting the mark of the beast. And that, somehow, is not a work that he must do.

Is that what you are saying?

I don't understand why you keep trying to put words in my mouth. I said elsewhere that those saved in the tribulation are indwelled with the Holy Spirit. They can know that they are saved, the same that we are now.

How much more clear can I be?

 

[Guojing]

I don't understand why you keep trying to put words in my mouth. I said elsewhere that those saved in the tribulation are indwelled with the Holy Spirit. They can know that they are saved, the same that we are now.

How much more clear can I be?

But you also agree that taking the mark of the beast means they were not saved correct?

So how would address that particular scenario? Is salvation really by faith alone for him?

Personally I think James 2 famous point about faith and works can be understood with this scenario.

 

[_Dave_]

But you also agree that taking the mark of the beast means they were not saved correct?

So how would address that particular scenario? Is salvation really by faith alone for him?

Yes, and yes.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, and yes.

If your answer is yes for the second point, then it means you have to say no to the first point.

Otherwise you are contradicting yourself. You cannot see that? He put his faith at the beginning but he took the mark at the end.

If he is indeed saved by faith alone, how can taking that mark void that salvation?

 

[SkyWriting]

Legalists can loose their free gift, but can still be saved.

 

[_Dave_]

If your answer is yes for the second point, then it means you have to say no to the first point.

Otherwise you are contradicting yourself. You cannot see that? He put his faith at the beginning but he took the mark at the end.

If he is indeed saved by faith alone, how can taking that mark void that salvation?

OK. I'll try to keep it simple with a little parable.

John becomes saved during the tribulation and is indwelled with the Holy Spirit. Hallelujah! He will be with the Lord! He WILL NOT accept the mark of the beast under any circumstances, even if threatened with death.

Bob sees others being saved, so he thinks it is a good idea for him to say some words to go along with his friends. But his is not a saving faith, merely mouthing words. He thinks he is saved, but he is not indwelled with the Holy Spirit, so he is not saved. The first time he is threatened with persecution or death he lines up with all of the other non-believers and takes the mark; which destines him for the lake of fire.

John sees his friend Bob take the mark, and he says to himself, "O wow, it looks like Bob was never really saved, or he wouldn't have taken the mark."

Does that help, Guojing?

 

[Guojing]

OK. I'll try to keep it simple with a little parable.

John becomes saved during the tribulation and is indwelled with the Holy Spirit. Hallelujah! He will be with the Lord! He WILL NOT accept the mark of the beast under any circumstances, even if threatened with death.

Bob sees others being saved, so he thinks it is a good idea for him to say some words to go along with his friends. But his is not a saving faith, merely mouthing words. He thinks he is saved, but he is not indwelled with the Holy Spirit, so he is not saved. The first time he is threatened with persecution or death he lines up with all of the other non-believers and takes the mark; which destines him for the lake of fire.

John sees his friend Bob take the mark, and he says to himself, "O wow, it looks like Bob was never really saved, or he wouldn't have taken the mark."

Does that help, Guojing?

I see that you are using the popular "saving vs dead faith" that many people used to reconcile James with Paul.

Let me use your scenario then. Suppose Bob in year 1 really believed that Jesus died for his sins, and rose again for justification.

He asked John, "Am I really saved? I put my faith in the DBR of Jesus. Is salvation really based on faith alone apart from works?"

John will naturally reply, "Yes, you put your faith in Jesus DBR, you are saved!" He did not tell him anything about rejecting the mark because, after all, its by faith alone. That is what the Apostle Paul stated in his letters.

Year 6 comes, the 2nd half of the Tribulation. Bob told John "I had to register my kid to school because kids need education, but they say I cannot use cash, I have to use the mark of my head, in order to pay for the kid's tuition in school. So I took the mark."

John would say, "Ooooh too bad, now that you took the mark, you are no longer saved, it shows you don't really believe in Jesus years ago".

Bob would reply, "But you told me earlier that salvation is by faith alone, how come you never tell me about this additional condition? You liarrrrrrrrrrrrr!"

 

[Guojing]

OK. I'll try to keep it simple with a little parable.

John becomes saved during the tribulation and is indwelled with the Holy Spirit. Hallelujah! He will be with the Lord! He WILL NOT accept the mark of the beast under any circumstances, even if threatened with death.

Bob sees others being saved, so he thinks it is a good idea for him to say some words to go along with his friends. But his is not a saving faith, merely mouthing words. He thinks he is saved, but he is not indwelled with the Holy Spirit, so he is not saved. The first time he is threatened with persecution or death he lines up with all of the other non-believers and takes the mark; which destines him for the lake of fire.

John sees his friend Bob take the mark, and he says to himself, "O wow, it looks like Bob was never really saved, or he wouldn't have taken the mark."

Does that help, Guojing?

This reminds me of the typical "water baptism required for salvation or not" debate.

It seems many of us are clear that water baptism is not required for salvation, until we can confidently say, even if a person believes in Jesus's DBR but choose not to get water baptized, he will still be saved.

That is how we can believe salvation is by faith alone apart from works.

But when it comes to Tribulation and the mark of the beast, we are confined by Rev 14 that clearly states that anyone who does not reject the mark will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Yet, some still want to hold on to this "salvation is ALWAYS by grace thru faith alone", thus they find ourselves resorting to circular arguments like "If you are truly saved, you will always reject the mark of the beast, but it is still salvation by faith alone".

Imagine if we do that for water baptism, "Water baptism does not save you, but if you are saved, you will always get water baptized, but water baptism still does not save you", and the circularity goes on and on.

 

[section9+1]

No one believes that.

That's why I believe salvation can be rejected by a saved person. People get disappointed or angry or caught up in the world and decide Christianity is no longer for them and deliberately lay it aside.

 

[_Dave_]

This reminds me of the typical "water baptism required for salvation or not" debate.

It seems many of us are clear that water baptism is not required for salvation, until we can confidently say, even if a person believes in Jesus's DBR but choose not to get water baptized, he will still be saved.

That is how we can believe salvation is by faith alone apart from works.

But when it comes to Tribulation and the mark of the beast, we are confined by Rev 14 that clearly states that anyone who does not reject the mark will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Yet, some still want to hold on to this "salvation is ALWAYS by grace thru faith alone", thus they find ourselves resorting to circular arguments like "If you are truly saved, you will always reject the mark of the beast, but it is still salvation by faith alone".

Imagine if we do that for water baptism, "Water baptism does not save you, but if you are saved, you will always get water baptized, but water baptism still does not save you", and the circularity goes on and on.

LOL,Guojing. You really don't need anybody to debate with. You just put words in people's mouths and then debate with yourself. Cracks me up.

Returning to the tribulation scenario ... it might help if I clarify something that is missing here.

Say that somehow Bob, the one who thinks he's saved, but it was only words to him without a saving faith, manages to survive the tribulation without taking the mark, and without being killed. Will he go into the Millennial Kingdom along with all of the righteous saved who managed to survive the tribulation?

No. His false conversion condemns him just as much as if he had taken the mark. It's like all of the supposed "Christians" sitting in pews today who will be very surprised to find themselves left behind at the rapture.

He will be a "goat" in the sheep and goats judgment and will be cast into the lake of fire along with the other goats.

See what I mean. The mark as a "test" of works is totally irrelevant to whether someone is saved or not.

Let me use your scenario then. Suppose Bob in year 1 really believed that Jesus died for his sins, and rose again for justification.

He asked John, "Am I really saved? I put my faith in the DBR of Jesus. Is salvation really based on faith alone apart from works?"

John will naturally reply, "Yes, you put your faith in Jesus DBR, you are saved!" He did not tell him anything about rejecting the mark because, after all, its by faith alone. That is what the Apostle Paul stated in his letters.

Year 6 comes, the 2nd half of the Tribulation. Bob told John "I had to register my kid to school because kids need education, but they say I cannot use cash, I have to use the mark of my head, in order to pay for the kid's tuition in school. So I took the mark."

John would say, "Ooooh too bad, now that you took the mark, you are no longer saved, it shows you don't really believe in Jesus years ago".

Bob would reply, "But you told me earlier that salvation is by faith alone, how come you never tell me about this additional condition? You liarrrrrrrrrrrrr!"

In your scenario, even the Devil believes Jesus was real and knows that he died and rose again. John was wrong to tell Bob he was saved merely by believing some words.

You said:

"I had to register my kid to school because kids need education, but they say I cannot use cash, I have to use the mark of my head, in order to pay for the kid's tuition in school. So I took the mark."

And that exactly proves my point. It doesn't exactly sound like the Holy Spirit talking in Bob, does it. How could someone who is truly saved give up eternity in heaven with the Lord for the trifling benefit of putting his kids in school. The martyrs suffered much, much, much worse without renouncing their faith.

Once again you refuse to acknowledge that I am saying that Bob didn't lose salvation because of taking the mark. He just never had salvation in the first place. It's true that salvation is by faith alone. But that faith has to be real, right? Not just words without true faith.

I have to admit I'm looking forward to seeing your next contribution to putting words in my mouth and then arguing with yourself.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

That's why I believe salvation can be rejected by a saved person.

What were they saved from? One man accepts Christ. Another does not. Both live similar lives, with similar results. The one who accepted Christ rejects him before he dies. Both go to Hell. If the first man was saved, then what was he saved from?