Can we lose our salvation?

[enoob57]

Also, isn't the discussion about whether we can loose our salvation?

I don't believe Scripture supports your view 'that you can loose your salvation'... there's too many verse that says you can't and this one in particular seal the thinking on this, at least on my part:
1 John 2:19 (KJV)
[19] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

If you are in fact God's you will remain God's... but if you are not then you will depart from those of God... seems pretty simple...

 

[Bones49]

I don't believe Scripture supports your view 'that you can loose your salvation'... there's too many verse that says you can't and this one in particular seal the thinking on this, at least on my part:
1 John 2:19 (KJV)
[19] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

If you are in fact God's you will remain God's... but if you are not then you will depart from those of God... seems pretty simple.

John here could simply be saying that 'they would no doubt have continued with us', to mean that they wouldn't have gone out. I don't see here that John is talking about salvation, he is talking about fellowship. But perhaps you are right.

2 Peter 2:20
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

Here it is very clear, the people were saved - they escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour.
Then they lost their salvation - the are again entangled in them (the defilements of the world).
And further, their state becomes worse than if they had never been saved in the first place.
It seems to me this verse cannot be interpreted in anyway but people loosing their salvation.

Hebrews 6:4ff
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance

Again very clear, undoubtedly speaking of people who were saved - been enlightened ... tasted the heavenly gift ... shared in the Holy Spirit ...
They loose their salvation - and they have fallen away
Again their state becomes worse than originally - it is impossible to restore them to repentance.
Again this verse seems impossible to interpret any other way than that these people lost their salvation

If 1 John 2:19 is the best you can come up with supporting your view, then it seems to me that your view has less biblical support than mine. Both versus I provides use significantly stronger language and provide a significantly more definite picture of believers who have fallen away, than your verse does, where it might suggest that believers will continue with us. Actually I must admit that there are a few verses in the Gospels where Jesus speaks of not loosing any of those that the father gave him, which seems to strongly support your view that believers can't loose their salvation. I'm not sure on some of those, I haven't really looked into them close enough, but I do think that Jesus might be talking about the disciples, rather than all of Christendom throughout the ages.

 

[tonychanyt]

When a person is saved

Define salvation.

 

[tonychanyt]

You don't, because you can't

See A Disciplined Probabilistic Approach to Biblical Hermeneutics and follow up there.

 

[enoob57]

If 1 John 2:19 is the best you can come up with supporting your view, then it seems to me that your view has less biblical support than mine. Both versus I provides use significantly stronger language and provide a significantly more definite picture of believers who have fallen away, than your verse does, where it might suggest that believers will continue with us.

We have come to an impasse as I see 1John 2:19 saying if they are they remain~ if they are not they will depart and as hermeneutic process demands this must be in consideration of all else that is related in Scripture! All Scripture must be considered in order to come to a Scriptural understanding of any topic spoken of in Scripture! It is never I have more Scripture than you as if Scripture is divided... God's Word is a unity not political vote system... I'm not sure I posted this but here a good treatise on the subject of eternal security of the believer:

Eternal security - is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

Eternal security - is it biblical? Is there any way that salvation can be lost? Once I am saved, is that salvation eternally assured and secured?

www.gotquestions.org

The Catholic religion for hundreds of years supports a work based religion... it is in books and discussions, preaching and even parallels the world we are in and pushes the philosophy... the trouble with is God clearly telling us what is being kept and what is being destroyed and forgotten... that list that is being kept is really short: souls of human beings and His Word as all else is burned up and forgotten!

 

[Bones49]

We have come to an impasse as I see 1John 2:19 saying if they are they remain~ if they are not they will depart and as hermeneutic process demands this must be in consideration of all else that is related in Scripture! All Scripture must be considered in order to come to a Scriptural understanding of any topic spoken of in Scripture! It is never I have more Scripture than you as if Scripture is divided... God's Word is a unity not political vote system... I'm not sure I posted this but here a good treatise on the subject of eternal security of the believer:

I disagree that the got questions link is a good treatise, I find it wholly unconvincing - most of the scriptures quoted one way or other do not actually support the point of view being presented. The only one that clearly disagrees with my position is John 10:27ff. This does cause me problems.

My apologies if I implied that me using 2 scriptures over your 1 means that I am correct. Certainly not. I agree 100% that all Scripture must be considered ... But perhaps would say that the more verses that support one view, the harder it is to discount them all.

I guess my question is whether you are willing to interact with those scriptures that don't seem to align with your view. I seek truth, if I am wrong, I want someone to care enough to be willing to show me that.

Does the bible as a whole say that the elect must persevere. I, at this point in my life, don't believe that it does.
If so, then Adam and Eve were not part of the elect, correct? Because they fell. (I hope this at least we can agree on) But if this is true, why would God create Adam, and choose that he was not part of the elect?
Israel as the elect nation, then was also never really elect (at least not in the sense that you are considering), because they turned away from God multiple times throughout their history (we could say the same for the church). So did the meaning of election change significantly between the Old and New Testaments, in that Israel as the elect nation was able to turn away from God, but now in the New Testament, the elect in the church cannot?
Paul says in 1 Tim 1, that a number of beleivers have suffered the shipwreck of their faith including Hymenaeus and Alexander. It would seem that this is a concrete example of some individuals whom Paul considers to have at least fallen, if not walked away from the faith.

Sorry, I have to go, so this is a little unfinished.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I think if one has lost their salvation, they are in a state in which they couldn't care less about their salvation.

 

[enoob57]

I disagree that the got questions link is a good treatise, I find it wholly unconvincing - most of the scriptures quoted one way or other do not actually support the point of view being presented. The only one that clearly disagrees with my position is John 10:27ff. This does cause me problems.

We individually choose .... what is convincing for me seem unconvincing to you... this is an impasse and we must agree to disagree!
The 1John passage simplifies it - you either are or you are not... not- you are -you are not -you are -you are not etc.

 

[keepitsimple144]

Can you lose your salvation?

Can they neglect salvation? ( Heb 2:3) Let's not test Christ, as some of them and were destroyed; 1 Cor 10:4-9
He subsequently destroyed those who did not believe [who did not trust in Him]. Jude 1:5
Because they did not believe in God, And did not trust in His salvation. Psalm 78:22
‘I will hide My face from them, I will see what their end will be, For they are a perverse generation, Children in whom is no faith.' Deut 32:20

Salvation belongs to the Lord. Your blessing is upon Your people. Psalm 3:8
Remember me, O Lord, with the favor You have toward Your people. Oh, visit me with Your salvation; Psalm 106:4
Lord, gather us from among the Gentiles, To give thanks to Your holy name; Psalm 106:47-48
We have waited for Him; We will be glad and rejoice in His salvation. Isaiah 25:9
In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory; Isaiah 45:25
Israel shall be saved by the Lord With an everlasting salvation; Isaiah 45:17

 

[tonychanyt]

Can they neglect salvation? ( Heb 2:3) Let's not test Christ, as some of them and were destroyed; 1 Cor 10:4-9
He subsequently destroyed those who did not believe [who did not trust in Him]. Jude 1:5
Because they did not believe in God, And did not trust in His salvation. Psalm 78:22
‘I will hide My face from them, I will see what their end will be, For they are a perverse generation, Children in whom is no faith.' Deut 32:20

Salvation belongs to the Lord. Your blessing is upon Your people. Psalm 3:8
Remember me, O Lord, with the favor You have toward Your people. Oh, visit me with Your salvation; Psalm 106:4
Lord, gather us from among the Gentiles, To give thanks to Your holy name; Psalm 106:47-48
We have waited for Him; We will be glad and rejoice in His salvation. Isaiah 25:9
In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory; Isaiah 45:25
Israel shall be saved by the Lord With an everlasting salvation; Isaiah 45:17

So, can you lose your salvation? I mean you in singular and particular.

 

[keepitsimple144]

So, can you lose your salvation? I mean you in singular and particular.

The blessing in Christ is everlasting Isaiah 55:3, doubt is from the devil. Romans 14:23

May we be shielded from perverse men for not all have faith. But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and shield you; 2 Thess 3:1-5

Above all, take up the shield of Faith; Ephesians 6:16-17

 

[tonychanyt]

The blessing in Christ is everlasting Isaiah 55:3, doubt is from the devil. Romans 14:23

May we be shielded from perverse men for not all have faith. But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and shield you; 2 Thess 3:1-5

Above all, take up the shield of Faith; Ephesians 6:16-17

What about your Paraclete?

 

[keepitsimple144]

What about your Paraclete?

It was already addressed:
But you will see A Me. Ω Because I live, you will live also.

God's Spirit dwells/resides in every one of us, individually and collectively. When a person is born again, or born from above, or born of the Spirit, the Paraclete takes up residence in him.

Does the Paraclete dwell in you permanently?

For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you, nor will I by any means forsake you."

That He may abide with you forever; John 14:16-19

 

[tonychanyt]

But you will see A Me. Ω Because I live, you will live also.

Can you sense the Paraclete in you?

 

[keepitsimple144]

Can you sense the Paraclete in you?

You can expect sensible people to have discernment. But people without understanding can expect to be disciplined. Proverbs 10:13

Test me, Lord, and try me, examine my heart and my mind; for I have always
been mindful of your lovingkindness and relied on your faithfulness. Psalm 26:1-3

Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God. 1 Corinthians 2:12

 

[tonychanyt]

You can expect sensible people to have discernment. But people without understanding can expect to be disciplined. Proverbs 10:13

Test me, Lord, and try me, examine my heart and my mind; for I have always
been mindful of your lovingkindness and relied on your faithfulness. Psalm 26:1-3

Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God. 1 Corinthians 2:12

So, can you sense the Paraclete in you?

 

[keepitsimple144]

So, can you sense the Paraclete in you?

By this we know that we remain in Him and He in us, because He has given to us of His Spirit.
We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 1 John 4:13-14

 

[tonychanyt]

By this we know that we remain in Him and He in us, because He has given to us of His Spirit.
We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 1 John 4:13-14

So, can you sense the Paraclete in you? See Where is my Paraclete?

This is the 3rd and the last time I have asked.

 

[Carl Emerson]

It seems that His Character becomes infused with our nature so it becomes hard to separate the two when you have journeyed with Him for a long time. However there are times His activity within us intensifies and we know again He is at work within us.