Can Christians lose their salvation?

[YeshuaBought]

 

[Dave-W]

In a word - yes.

 

[Hazelelponi]

a 1 hour and 35 minute video to start off a discussion in general theology? You can't write your thoughts?

 

[Tolworth John]

Depends who you listen to.
What did Jesus say in John10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Can Christians lose their salvation?

It would hardly seem good news if that were the case.

Why is it called the good news again?

 

[section9+1]

You can't lose your salvation like you lose your car keys. So no, it can't be lost. A better question is can they throw it away. And I'd say yes.

 

[Guojing]

During the Tribulation, one can lose their salvation when they accept the mark of the beast. Rev 14

 

[_Dave_]

During the Tribulation, one can lose their salvation when they accept the mark of the beast. Rev 14

I don't see anything in the language of the text in Revelation 14 that suggests that someone who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit will all of a sudden throw away eternity with God in order to earn a temporary favor with Satan during a short time on Earth. The Holy Spirit simply won't allow it.

Can someone who thinks he is a believer and behaves like a believer but who isn't indwelled with the Holy Spirit do the cowardly thing and accept the mark? I believe that it is not only possible, but will be a very likely scenario during the Great Tribulation. Putting one's feet to the fire is a good way to find out if one is truly saved.

 

[Guojing]

I don't see anything in the language of the text in Revelation 14 that suggests that someone who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit will all of a sudden throw away eternity with God in order to earn a temporary favor with Satan during a short time on Earth. The Holy Spirit simply won't allow it.

Can someone who thinks he is a believer and behaves like a believer but who isn't indwelled with the Holy Spirit do the cowardly thing and accept the mark? I believe that it is not only possible, but will be a very likely scenario during the Great Tribulation. Putting one's feet to the fire is a good way to find out if one is truly saved.

God always respects free will in humans so I don't know what you mean when you say the HS won't allow it.

Quite a simple scenario to me: you are not sure whether the Tribulation will end or not, in the meantime you cannot buy and sell without the mark, so you take the mark in order to participate in the economic system.

 

[_Dave_]

God always respects free will in humans so I don't know what you mean when you say the HS won't allow it.

Quite a simple scenario to me: you are not sure whether the Tribulation will end or not, in the meantime you cannot buy and sell without the mark, so you take the mark in order to participate in the economic system.

Presumably by the time the tribulation begins everybody who wanted to would have had a chance to read the Bible and would have read in Revelation 14 that taking the mark excludes them from heaven.

So, if someone takes the mark it means he or she has willingly chosen the wrath of God. A true believer indwelled with the Holy Spirit simply would not make that bad choice, and would choose eternal life with Christ and accept the persecution and death, as millions of martyrs throughout history have done.

 

[com7fy8]

A better question is can they throw it away. And I'd say yes.

If a person trusts in Jesus (Ephesians 1:12) and therefore submits to how God changes us to be like Jesus, how can we be like Jesus (1 John 4:17) and throw this away?

But if someone makes a gesture of getting saved, but keeps on controlling one's own will > Luke 9:23 > this person has not obeyed Jesus by denying one's own self with one's own will's capability. So, of course, such a person still has the nature making this person able to quit.

But if we trust in Jesus and get into His grace with His capability, we have left behind our human free will which was in slavery to sin, by the way. Adam and Eve lost their freedom and became slaves of Satan. And we were born in sin > "by nature children of wrath, just as the others." (in Ephesians 2:2)

But if God has changed our nature so we are obedient to Jesus, it won't be our nature to leave Him. And Hebrews 12:4-14 guarantees how our Father corrects every one of His children. And we are directed to actively seek His correction which makes us "partakers of His holiness" in His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness". So, if we have trusted in Jesus, our trusting Him has us doing this.

And Jesus says His sheep will not follow another.

 

[eleos1954]

Ezekiel 18:24

24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

Ezekiel 33:14

14 When I tell righteous people that they will live, but then they sin, expecting their past righteousness to save them, then none of their righteous acts will be remembered. I will destroy them for their sins.

Ezekiel 33:18
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he will die for it.

2 Peter 2:21
It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them.

Proverbs 21:16
The man who strays from the path of understanding will rest in the assembly of the dead.

Ezekiel 18:26
When a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, he will die for this. He will die because of the iniquity he has committed.

names can be erased out of the book of life

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Exodus 32:31-33

Then Moses returned to the LORD, and said, "Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves. "But now, if You will, forgive their sin--and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!" The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

 

[section9+1]

If a person trusts in Jesus (Ephesians 1:12) and therefore submits to how God changes us to be like Jesus, how can we be like Jesus (1 John 4:17) and throw this away?

But if someone makes a gesture of getting saved, but keeps on controlling one's own will > Luke 9:23 > this person has not obeyed Jesus by denying one's own self with one's own will's capability. So, of course, such a person still has the nature making this person able to quit.

But if we trust in Jesus and get into His grace with His capability, we have left behind our human free will which was in slavery to sin, by the way. Adam and Eve lost their freedom and became slaves of Satan. And we were born in sin > "by nature children of wrath, just as the others." (in Ephesians 2:2)

But if God has changed our nature so we are obedient to Jesus, it won't be our nature to leave Him. And Hebrews 12:4-14 guarantees how our Father corrects every one of His children. And we are directed to actively seek His correction which makes us "partakers of His holiness" in His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness". So, if we have trusted in Jesus, our trusting Him has us doing this.

And Jesus says His sheep will not follow another.

As long as you remain children and sheep. As long as you trust and submit. I do not believe we are locked into Christ against our wills.

 

[BigRed009]

People have different answers but based on what I've studied in the NT, I do not believe that a true born-again Christian is in danger of losing their salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:1-5 1Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly-mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere human beings? 5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe-as the LORD has assigned to each his task.

Paul describes how new believers are like infants and are not spiritually mature, and that God will teach them and discipline them (which takes time). It doesn't make sense to me how a believer (who's on their way to becoming a mature and obedient believer) can lose their salvation by committing a sin. Sanctification is usually a life-long process.

God is the one who gives us spiritual life and salvation. Beforehand, we are spiritually dead. How can something that is dead bring itself to life? Bringing life to something thats dead is within God's power alone.

Just as we can't bring ourselves to eternal life, but are brought to a place to receive faith and thus grace, how can our own works undo God's will and for us?

John 10:27-30 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

1 John 2:19 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

There are more examples in the NT that support eternal security. That being said, its not something that can be abused and used as an excuse to sin. There are of course still consequences for sinning that affect us and others here on earth, not to mention we will still have to give an account of ourselves before the Lord.

Romans 6:1-4 1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Romans 14:12 12So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

 

[section9+1]

His sheep will follow him as long as they remain sheep. And no one can remove anyone else's salvation. We are not prey to anyone else when it comes to our security. But to say that people who walk away from Christ were never saved in the first place is a cop-out. I have seen otherwise and reneging on salvation does not conflict with scripture. There is certainly eternal security for any believer who remains a believer and desires God's presence in his life.

 

[topher694]

Can Christians lose their salvation

This topic pops up quite often.

My answer: It doesn't matter nearly as much as people seem to think.

*gasp* *mumble* *shake fist*

1) If you are not saved, let's pray and get you saved.

2) If you've done that but are not living for the Lord, let's get you on track.

(this isn't about works salvation, this simply means you'll never go wrong by doing your best to live right)

Do those, and this question doesn't matter.

Where it does matter is if someone is has done #1 but is unwilling to do #2 and such people are seldom interested in these discussions. If they are unconcerned enough to not listen or act, then that's their gamble.

 

[~Zao~]

We have a new heart but can we lose heart?
Yes, many do and it’s hard to get the fire back. Those are times of yearnings and desires to get back again. Seeking the kingdom again to establish that contact, never again wanting to to quench the spirit. Story of my life.

Christ says to return to your first love, remember! Revelation 2:4-5

The 1st thing that the Risen Lord said in relation to His full church is to caution them not to leave their first love. Our heart of flesh is one of God’s greatest accomplishments and certainly one of His greatest treasures. Nothing could be more endearing to Him than a heart that matches His heart. We find shelter in His heart especially when we share our hearts with Him.

I know there’s a certain orthodox antipathy towards ‘rewards’ that have a very chilling effect upon obedience. But, I also know that He wills my sanctification, rejoices over it, not only shielding it, but as an ‘exceeding' great reward.

The doctrine of reward is really a further disclosure of the infinite generosity of Christ and is what captivated my heart to begin with. That hope of glory found only in Him.

I can fall away but never out of His reach.

 

[Guojing]

Presumably by the time the tribulation begins everybody who wanted to would have had a chance to read the Bible and would have read in Revelation 14 that taking the mark excludes them from heaven.

So, if someone takes the mark it means he or she has willingly chosen the wrath of God. A true believer indwelled with the Holy Spirit simply would not make that bad choice, and would choose eternal life with Christ and accept the persecution and death, as millions of martyrs throughout history have done.

You seem to have a view that salvation is always by grace thru faith alone apart from works.

How some people continue to hold on to that belief. even during the Tribulation, is to resort to some form of circular argument: If a saved person take the mark, that means he never believe in the first place, thus, it is actually his unbelief, not taking the mark, that condemns him.

 

[_Dave_]

You seem to have a view that salvation is always by grace thru faith alone apart from works.

How some people continue to hold on to that belief. even during the Tribulation, is to resort to some form of circular argument: If a saved person take the mark, that means he never believe in the first place, thus, it is actually his unbelief, not taking the mark, that condemns him.

I never said, "If a saved person takes the mark ..."

I'm saying that a saved person wouldn't take the mark. Ever. Period.

I'm also saying that someone who thinks he is saved, but he isn't really saved, might very likely give in and take the mark under threat of persecution and death. And in that case they were never really saved.

Even today there are many sitting in the pews who mistakenly think they are saved. It's not an uncommon phenomenon.

I hope this makes what I said more clear.

 

[Guojing]

I never said, "If a saved person takes the mark ..."

I'm saying that a saved person wouldn't take the mark. Ever. Period.

I'm also saying that someone who thinks he is saved, but he isn't really saved, might very likely give in and take the mark under threat of persecution and death. And in that case they were never really saved.

Even today there are many sitting in the pews who mistakenly think they are saved. It's not an uncommon phenomenon.

I hope this makes what I said more clear.

Do you agree that by saying

If you are saved, you won't take the mark,

is equivalent to saying

If you take the mark, you are not saved?