Calvinism, explained.

[nobdysfool]

Here is the true fact - hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, not mankind.

And yet, millions will go to Hell. What i wrote is true, every word of it.

 

[Hoghead1]

Here is the true fact - hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, not mankind.

That, however, is not how Calvin saw it.

 

[nobdysfool]

Yes, that is the way Calvin had it. Everyone deserves to go to Hell. Calvin said that even among the "pillars of the church," there is not one person who has not sinned to the extent that God would not be justified in sending him or her to Hell instantly. A few lucky ones, however, were given a reprieve solely by God's free grace alone and so not for anything they did. They, not the ones sent to Hell, were treated unjustly, since they, too, deserved Hell and so shouldn't complain about the injustice of God predestining others to Hell.

Don't make the mistake of claiming that God Grace is unjust, because Grace overrides Justice. Those under God's Grace have been cleansed from sin, therefore it would be unjust to send them to Hell.

 

[Hoghead1]

No need for you or anyone else to hold their breath.

Not only can I explain how the predestination of all that happens in God's creation is perfectly compatible with the free will of the creation - I have explained it many times.

You just won't accept it. So I won't be doing it again here.

I'm not necessarily aiming this at you. But people love to trot out their bogus puppet/robot/automaton shtick.

Once it is explained to them how those words are not a fitting analogy of the concept of predestination - they are robbed of their favorite red herring argument.

Then it seems that they quickly and conveniently try to forget or at least not acknowledge what they have been taught so that they can continue to use the only argument they can think of against predestination.

Yu have a most incorrect understanding of predestination, as I have pointed out to you several times before and with direct quotes from Calvin. Yes, in Calvin, we are but puppets. In a similar vein, Luther said the princes are but puppets.

 

[Hoghead1]

Don't make the mistake of claiming that God Grace is unjust, because Grace overrides Justice. Those under God's Grace have been cleansed from sin, therefore it would be unjust to send them to Hell.

That's not Calvin, nowhere near Calvin. As I said in a previous post, Calvin considered even the "pillars of teh church" worthy of Hell. Salvation is purely through God's free grace, not for anything we have done, no works righteousness.

 

[nobdysfool]

That's not Calvin, nowhere near Calvin. As I said in a previous post, Calvin considered even the "pillars of teh church" worthy of Hell. Salvation is purely through God's free grace, not for anything we have done, no works righteousness.

First, I wasn't even referencing Calvin, so you're barking up the wrong tree.

Second, what part of what i said is not true?

 

[Hoghead1]

Well don't then. I've never read a full explanation that answers.

Til it can all make sense with all of the Bible, Calvinism cannot explain it. I am who I am, I speak for no one else but myself.

Although I'd want to hear it from a real Calvinist, or at least a 4 or 5 point one.

Calvin is quite specific that the elect and reprobate were all predetermined by God. They have absolutely no choice or say in the matter. In Calvin, God is viewed as a kind of cosmic dictator and as such, has the power and right to predetermine everything that happens, right down to the smallest detail. Calvin is somewhat ambiguous as to why God wanted there to be both reprobate and elect, as this was all done by God's secret will, but what he does strongly suggest is that this is all for the greater glory of God.

 

[Hoghead1]

Calvinism has never made sense when all of the Bible is taken into account.

No one has ever put that puzzle together for me. Calvinist's think that because they have a few verses that they are right, but as far as putting it all together in one cohesive understanding, I've never seen it.

Hopefully someone can lay it all out, but I've been asking for two years and no one has been able to, so you see why I am not holding my breath.

No, it doesn't make much sense if you look at the whole of Scripture, as there are plenty of passages that challenge his notion of predestination. But you have to remember that Calvin's whole model of God was actually based on Hellenic metaphysics and Hellenic standards of perfection, not Scripture, as was the case with the other church fathers. Also, Calvin used Augustine as a major authority, in addition to Scripture. In fact, he once said that he would not have believed, had he not read Augustine. So Calvin is going on more than just Scripture.

 

[Hoghead1]

First, I wasn't even referencing Calvin, so you're barking up the wrong tree.

Second, what part of what i said is not true?

Well, who were you referencing? This thread is supposed to be on Calvin and Calvinism. That, however, does not mean you have to agree with Calvin. I know I don't.

 

[nobdysfool]

Well, who were you referencing? This thread is supposed to be on Calvin and Calvinism. That, however, does not mean you have to agree with Calvin. I know I don't.

I was referencing biblical truth. Is that not allowed here?

I was trying to step beyond the argument to refocus things a little, which was neither Calvinist or anti-Calvinist.

 

[ToBeLoved]

And yet, millions will go to Hell. What i wrote is true, every word of it.

Interesting that you do not list your scriptural support.




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[ToBeLoved]

Well, who were you referencing? This thread is supposed to be on Calvin and Calvinism. That, however, does not mean you have to agree with Calvin. I know I don't.

We are in agreement. Calvin took lots of liberties with his understanding.


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[Hoghead1]

I was referencing biblical truth. Is that not allowed here?

I was trying to step beyond the argument to refocus things a little, which was neither Calvinist or anti-Calvinist.

I never said biblical truth wasn't allowed here. Where did you get that idea? I'm just trying to be clear where you are coming from.

 

[nobdysfool]

Interesting that you do not list your scriptural support.

I didn't think that any true christian would argue with what i said.

 

[nobdysfool]

I never said biblical truth wasn't allowed here. Where did you get that idea? I'm just trying to be clear where you are coming from.

I'm just reminding people of biblical truth. Didn't thing i was going to undergo inquisition for it.

Apparently where I'm coming from is more important than what I'm saying.

What about taking the truth, unfiltered?

 

[Hoghead1]

I didn't think that any true christian would argue with what i said.

That's strange. Most Christians accept that we are all sinners, that nobody is perfect in the eyes of God. I don't know where got the idea that the Holy Spirit performs some miracle by which we are no longer human and subject to error and sinfulness.

 

[EmSw]

And yet, millions will go to Hell. What i wrote is true, every word of it.

Hell is not the default destination for mankind. Heaven, not hell, was prepared for mankind. Man goes to hell of his own choosing, not God's. When man chooses to keep sin within his heart and not remove it, he freely makes hell his destination.

 

[EmSw]

That, however, is not how Calvin saw it.

It wasn't the first time, nor the last, Calvin was wrong.

 

[Hoghead1]

Hell is not the default destination for mankind. Heaven, not hell, was prepared for mankind. Man goes to hell of his own choosing, not God's. When man chooses to keep sin within his heart and not remove it, he freely makes hell his destination.

No, definitely not according to Calvin. For the moment, I'm just concerned with setting the record straight on Calvin, not whether he is right or wrong.

 

[Hoghead1]

It wasn't the first time, nor the last, Calvin was wrong.

Amen to that.