Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[Freodin]

img snip

And you believe that Jesus taught Paul that it is impossible to please God without faith during this vision?

 

[Incariol]

And you believe that Jesus taught Paul that it is impossible to please God without faith during this vision?

Not necessarily. Why are you obsessing over this?

 

[Freodin]

Not necessarily. Why are you obsessing over this?

Because I want to understand your reasoning.

Some guy said that you need faith, or else it's eternal damnation for you! Now I want to know where he got that idea... and I find that he is repeating what another guy said.

And the first guy tells me also that he knows that this older guy was correct, because he was "inspired by God" or somthing like that.

And now I am faced with this Incariol guy, who tells me that he doesn't believe that this text "fell out of heaven"... but that it is still correct and true.

I want to know why.

I presented you with an alternative. That this isn't "truth" or even better "Truth", but the thoughts of a human, which might or might not be correct. Which are, considering the topic, are not better or worse that the thoughts of Incariol or Mr.Williamson or Zaac or Freodin.
How do I know that, you might ask? Experience! Humanity as a whole has a lot of experience with human opinion... a lot more than with divine revelation.

 

[Incariol]

Because I want to understand your reasoning.

Some guy said that you need faith, or else it's eternal damnation for you! Now I want to know where he got that idea... and I find that he is repeating what another guy said.

And the first guy tells me also that he knows that this older guy was correct, because he was "inspired by God" or somthing like that.

And now I am faced with this Incariol guy, who tells me that he doesn't believe that this text "fell out of heaven"... but that it is still correct and true.

I want to know why.

I presented you with an alternative. That this isn't "truth" or even better "Truth", but the thoughts of a human, which might or might not be correct. Which are, considering the topic, are not better or worse that the thoughts of Incariol or Mr.Williamson or Zaac or Freodin.
How do I know that, you might ask? Experience! Humanity as a whole has a lot of experience with human opinion... a lot more than with divine revelation.

I literally have not the slightest clue what you are talking about. Who said that you need faith or you'll be damned?

 

[Freodin]

I literally have not the slightest clue what you are talking about. Who said that you need faith or you'll be damned?

Hm... perhaps you should do your own research?

The position of some Christians here, namedly Zaac and Tergle among others, is that God does not let you into Heaven (and you can make up your version of what the consequences of that really are: anihilaton, eternal hellfire, a Heaven of torment... whatever), if you don't repent, accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, ask for forgiveness... all that stuff and more.

These Christians have also said that whatever you do is worthless, sinful even, if you don't do it "for the glory of God".

The basis of all that is "Faith". I did, in this very thread, ask God for forgiveness. Somehow it got ignored - no one commented on it... but I am certain that the comments would have gone along the lines of "Ah, but you don't mean it! You are not sincere! You don't have FAITH!!!"

So without faith, you cannot please God. Without faith, all your actions are sinful. Without faith, you cannot be saved... you ARE NOT saved. (Those who don't believe in him are already damned... look up the correct quote for yourself.)



THIS is what I am talking about. And it seems to me that you agree with these guys.

And I want to know where you get that idea. Or, more precisely, where you get the idea that the source for that is correct.

 

[Incariol]

Hm... perhaps you should you your own research?

Why?

The position of some Christians here, namedly Zaac and Tergle among others, is that God does not let you into Heaven (and you can make up your version of what the consequences of that really are: anihilaton, eternal hellfire, a Heaven of torment... whatever), if you don't repent, accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, ask for forgiveness... all that stuff and more.

These Christians have also said that whatever you do is worthless, sinful even, if you don't do it "for the glory of God".

Yes? That doesn't seem terribly controversial, doctrinally.

5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

The basis of all that is "Faith". I did, in this very thread, ask God for forgiveness. Somehow it got ignored - no one commented on it... but I am certain that the comments would have gone along the lines of "Ah, but you don't mean it! You are not sincere! You don't have FAITH!!!"

Poor, persecuted you.

So without faith, you cannot please God.

Yes.

Without faith, all your actions are sinful.[/quote]

Um no.

Without faith, you cannot be saved... you ARE NOT saved. (Those who don't believe in him are already damned... look up the correct quote for yourself.)

Yes.

THIS is what I am talking about. And it seems to me that you agree with these guys.

Of course. Basic Christian theology is that union with Jesus Christ is the only path to salvation.

And I want to know where you get that idea.

The Bible.

Or, more precisely, where you get the idea that the source for that is correct.

The Church.

 

[Freodin]

Why?

Yes, why indeed.

I see that I cannot get through to you. Thanks for trying though.

 

[Incariol]

Yes, why indeed.

I see that I cannot get through to you. Thanks for trying though.

Yes, well, when you ramble on about something that I haven't seen happen, and then tell me I should go do my own research, don't act surprised when people have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[Freodin]

Yes, well, when you ramble on about something that I haven't seen happen, and then tell me I should go do my own research, don't act surprised when people have no clue what you are talking about.

Nah, its quite clear to me, if that isn't enough to give you a clue, you can do your own research.

Remember that post?

 

[Incariol]

Remember that post?

Yes, it was made in response to a question and answer on a specific topic in which case being told to go "do research" actually makes sense. So basically, you were attempting to be snide, and your attempt fell flat on its face?

 

[Freodin]

Yes, it was made in response to a question and answer on a specific topic in which case being told to go "do research" actually makes sense. So basically, you were attempting to be snide, and your attempt fell flat on its face?

I see that I can really not get through to you. So I guess we better stop that here. Thanks for trying.

 

[Incariol]

I see that I can really not get through to you. So I guess we better stop that here. Thanks for trying.

Bye bye!

YouTube - Vision - Light and Neuronal Activity

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

What was it invented to do?

First, I don't believe that it was invented by a deity. Next, I believe it was invented by religious zealots who wanted there to be a dire consequence for not joining the group. That's all hell is - a concept to scare people into submission in my opinion.

 

[Philothei]

Paul (and it is doubtfull that he even wrote Hebrews) has never met Jesus. So how would he know that "without faith it is impossible to please God"?

Cause it was transmitted to him through Christ himself and the rest of the Apostles.

 

[Philothei]

Because I want to understand your reasoning.

Some guy said that you need faith, or else it's eternal damnation for you! Now I want to know where he got that idea... and I find that he is repeating what another guy said.

And the first guy tells me also that he knows that this older guy was correct, because he was "inspired by God" or somthing like that.

And now I am faced with this Incariol guy, who tells me that he doesn't believe that this text "fell out of heaven"... but that it is still correct and true.

I want to know why.

I presented you with an alternative. That this isn't "truth" or even better "Truth", but the thoughts of a human, which might or might not be correct. Which are, considering the topic, are not better or worse that the thoughts of Incariol or Mr.Williamson or Zaac or Freodin.
How do I know that, you might ask? Experience! Humanity as a whole has a lot of experience with human opinion... a lot more than with divine revelation.

Wrong! Divine revelation is unilaterally expressed in all people...God "word" is manifested in many cultures not in its perfection as in the Chrisitan religion but nevertheless in all. The "seeds" of God's word can be found since the creation of the world. The 'truth' you are refering to is indeed how man percieves that "eternal truth" but that does not negate at all that it exists. That is an argument that is not very deep. Considering we know 20% of the universe if that ... imagine how poorly we understand our spiritual world around us. Since God is spirit and as such cannot be understood with science.

 

[Freodin]

Cause it was transmitted to him through Christ himself and the rest of the Apostles.

And so we are back at step one.

See, that is one of the main problems of being a sceptic. It's not the fact that your own position requires to to be sceptical of your own position... it is that you cannot communicate the necessity of doubt to a "believer" (of any kind).

It is just so difficult and frustrating if every of your "yes, but could it not be this way?" shatters against the brickwall of "It is so. It IS so. It IS SO! IT IS SO!!!"

 

[Freodin]

Wrong! Divine revelation is unilaterally expressed in all people...God "word" is manifested in many cultures not in its perfection as in the Chrisitan religion but nevertheless in all. The "seeds" of God's word can be found since the creation of the world. The 'truth' you are refering to is indeed how man percieves that "eternal truth" but that does not negate at all that it exists. That is an argument that is not very deep. Considering we know 20% of the universe if that ... imagine how poorly we understand our spiritual world around us. Since God is spirit and as such cannot be understood with science.

And how does that exclude the possibility of exclusively human option expressed in the Bible as well as in other religious texts?

 

[Philothei]

And how does that exclude the possibility of exclusively human option expressed in the Bible as well as in other religious texts?

That would require faith in God's revelation utlimately Freodin. And the description about Hell is mainly there in many of religious manifestations across our world. The Ancient Greeks started by saying that ο ανθρωπος was the only being that was standing upright the very word has to do with gazing up to God. Logically there has to be a master mind etc. There is a creator in all things around us...Things are not just "there" are they? Man be able to contemplate is by itself a miracle and if God was not threre why having that "option" then?

So yeah the texts and the Bible do point out to the same reality that of God and indeed exclude that possibility as if there no possibility of God existing why would we have that "yearning"?

Hell is in reality to me a spiritual death a place of no return for the very fact that if there is a creator and some who do not believe him ...they themselves cut off that possibility. I just prefer to be on His side not for fear of being wrong but for my inner disposition tells me so. it is all a matter of trusting there is a spiritual reality of our life.

 

[Skavau]

The problem is that your going to that place of suffering is your fault, and a result of your decisions initially, not God's. His love, which is for you to accept, is a way to get out of the consequences of your decisions.

We can agree in part. If hell exists, and is 'reserved' for atheists then it is a result of their decisions that they arrive there but it is not their choice and it is a smear to suggest it is or can be. An atheist does not believe that there exists a God to love, and thus has no belief that there exists a relevant choice to do so.

 

[Skavau]

No they won't rethink their definition as God is above our idea of human love. God is God we are humans. Some do realize that God transcends all reality and His mind is not our mind and His ways are not our ways. Also God is fair and just and merciful.

You want to have your cake and eat it too. You simply can't have it both ways. If you decree that God is beyond our ideas of human love (and presumably justice, logic etc) then you can't accurately state anything about him. God's fairness, justness and mercy could be literally anything and you would still decree with absolute conviction that he was all three. To say that whatever God is and does is always merciful, just and fair effectively negates the words of any coherent meaning.