Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[Zipi]

So how is this just that if a christain who would lets say killed someone and asked for forgiveness would go to heaven and an atheist who has been good all there life, has never put themself first go to tell?

Please, answers?

 

[joey_downunder]

Good by whose standards? Yours or God's?

 

[Exial]

So how is this just that if a christain who would lets say killed someone and asked for forgiveness would go to heaven and an atheist who has been good all there life, has never put themself first go to tell?

Please, answers?

You'll get lots of different answers from christians. Some might say (oasis) that you will not be saved unless you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour, regardless of your "works" as they often like to say. Others will say that they believe good people go to heaven, and may not say you definitely need Jesus to do so. Some christians will say its not their place to judge so they can't be sure. So I am afraid your question may not get you anywhere, I think a more important one to ask is why there is so much diversion among Christians on these fundamental issues when they get all their knowledge from the same book.

As for the ethical issues, I think that the first proposition (that you only need Jesus or that through Jesus is the only way) is evil and a immoral standard to take when deciding who gets to live forever in paradise and who gets to burn. I can't be sure but I think this is the only option with scriptural backing.

The second proposition makes God/Jesus unnecessary to achieving the afterlife. If you can get to heaven just by doing good deeds, not being "bad" and helping others and you don't need to have Jesus in your life (which may be no fault of your own, you might not have ever heard of God or the Bible) then that makes Jesus useless in getting into heaven.

Of course, to take these with just the last option I presented ( I don't know for sure what will happen to you so I'm not going to pass judgement ) would be very short-sighted view. I imagine you will get thousands of different answers, unique, personal answers. This is what is to be expected when asking a human his/her opinion, but I don't think it should be expected when that opinion is derived from the same book which is supposedly the work of a divine being.

 

[The Philosoraptor]

So how is this just that if a christain who would lets say killed someone and asked for forgiveness would go to heaven and an atheist who has been good all there life, has never put themself first go to tell?

Please, answers?

I'm afraid that's something that's specific to Protestantism (and, as far as I'm aware, even then only to a few of the more extreme sects) which is based upon their interpretation of St. Paul's letters. They believe that only Faith in Christ is the route to salvation, and erego, no faith, no salvation.

Most world religions have a different view. The Catholic Church, for example, states in it's Catechism (847)

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation"

And this tends to be what you will find in most religions. Even if somebody hasn't managed to live by the strictures of a doctrine, then their life in itself is what they shall be judged on. Since God is universal goodness (in his most basic form) anybody who seeks Him with their heart and tries to live in what they understand to be His way (although they might not use those terms!) comes to know Him intimately and can be redeemed by that.

 

[citizenthom]

You'll get lots of different answers from christians. Some might say (oasis) that you will not be saved unless you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour, regardless of your "works" as they often like to say. Others will say that they believe good people go to heaven, and may not say you definitely need Jesus to do so. Some christians will say its not their place to judge so they can't be sure. So I am afraid your question may not get you anywhere, I think a more important one to ask is why there is so much diversion among Christians on these fundamental issues when they get all their knowledge from the same book.

You're not going to find the two bolded views in the Christian "book," the Bible. The Bible is pretty straightforward: all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

As to the OP, I don't think I understood the concept nearly as well until I got married. Then you realize that it is possible to forgive a repentant person for anything and to take them back into your heart; but it is impossible to truly forgive someone who does not admit s/he did something wrong.

And there's the difference between the atheist who thinks s/he is "good" versus the Christian who knows s/he has done evil. The atheist does not even acknowledge the standard by which s/he is judged--God's perfection. The Christian not only acknowledges it, but repents for having transgressed against it. God cannot forgive someone who does not even acknowledge the need for forgiveness. But unlike humans, who still punish even the truly repentant for wrong, God can forgive a repentant person fully.

 

[b&wpac7]

I really dislike the concept of Hell. I am really glad I don't have it in my belief system.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So how is this just that if a christain who would lets say killed someone and asked for forgiveness would go to heaven and an atheist who has been good all there life, has never put themself first go to tell?

Please, answers?

God is arbitrary in his mercy, and is very selective about who goes to 'heaven'.

 

[Jase]

I really dislike the concept of Hell. I am really glad I don't have it in my belief system.

I always wonder how the concept of Hell really became so distorted between Judaism and Christianity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Judaism believes Gehenna is a 1 year purification style place where the dead in Sheol go, so they can be ready for Olam ha ba?

If true, the Apostles and Jesus being Jews would have believed this view. So how did it go from purification in Judaism, to fire and brimstone eternal torture for all eternity in Christianity?

And how much influenced did Dante's Inferno and Milton's Paradise Lost have in the modern day conception of hell?

It's an interesting topic that I haven't done enough research on.

 

[ranunculus]

And how much influenced did Dante's Inferno and Milton's Paradise Lost have in the modern day conception of hell?

It's an interesting topic that I haven't done enough research on.

I don't know where I heard this but Dante's Inferno may be inspired by The Apocalypse of Peter, a gnostic text wherein hell is depicted in great detail. Homosexuals are thrown in a lake of pus and blood over and over again. Adulterous women are hung by their hair, men by their feet. And so on... I also heard that this book wasn't included in the canon because people didn't like to read this kind of stuff ^^

 

[Jazer]

an atheist who has been good all there life

ONLY God is good and only what God puts in people is good. If there is non of God in you, then there is no good in you. Why would God take people to His Heaven if they do not want to be there? It would no longer be Heaven because there are people who do not want to be there.

 

[Jazer]

how much influenced did Dante's Inferno and Milton's Paradise Lost have in the modern day conception of hell?

I think a lot. There is very little in the Bible about anything like that. God is a God of Justice and He has told me that over and over again. I think people will suffer the consequences for the harm they have done to others (& the earth). In the end though I am a annihilationist, the unbelievers or whatever you call them will be destroyed and there will be no memory of them. It will be as if they never were. Even now go back 100 years and there were people that there is no memory or record of them ever having lived. Some good words to study in the Bible is: "hell", "destroy" & "destruction". I would not pay to much attention to Dante's concept of Heaven and Hell. It was designed to scare people and make it easier for the Church to control them. I would like to be a Universalist, but I do not believe that is what the Bible teaches.

 

[ranunculus]

ONLY God is good and only what God puts in people is good. If there is non of God in you, then there is no good in you. Why would God take people to His Heaven if they do not want to be there? It would no longer be Heaven because there are people who do not want to be there.

If you define god as good you're actually saying that god is god or that good is good, a meaningless tautology. What is the basis of your assertion that god is good? -Because he says so? Then how do you differentiate between god and satan? Because I imagine satan would do the same thing, saying he is good. -Because you judge his actions to be good? But if your morality comes from this supreme being how can you judge at all? Your judgment becomes meaningless because you already presuppose that god is good. A supreme being who tells you that he is good, so that it confirms that he is good. It's a circular argument.

 

[briareos]

So how is this just that if a christain who would lets say killed someone and asked for forgiveness would go to heaven and an atheist who has been good all there life, has never put themself first go to tell?

Please, answers?

Since you inquire of the Christian belief system it is fair to remain relevant to it's own statements. The bible lists the requirements for entering heaven, believing in God is one of them. Concerning the morality of the forgiven murderer, the bible states that if such is forgiven by God then the sinfulness of that sin no longer exists. That is what the doctrine of Christian states on the subject.

 

[TerranceL]

Yes OP if you aren't the member of the right fan club you go to hell.

 

[Jazer]

If you define god as good you're actually saying that god is god or that good is good, a meaningless tautology. What is the basis of your assertion that god is good? -Because he says so? Then how do you differentiate between god and satan? Because I imagine satan would do the same thing, saying he is good. -Because you judge his actions to be good? But if your morality comes from this supreme being how can you judge at all? Your judgment becomes meaningless because you already presuppose that god is good. A supreme being who tells you that he is good, so that it confirms that he is good. It's a circular argument.

Your arguement is meaningless and circular because you present no evidence. You have to have a controled study. You take the people who believe in the God of the Bible and compare them to the people who do NOT believe in the God of the Bible. If in your study the people who DO NOT believe in the God of the Bible are more happy, healthy and content. Then by all means go for it. Of course it maybe difficult for you to make a determination as to who believes in the God of the Bible because you do not even know what to look for. You lump all people who claim to believe in God together, without even making a determination if it is really the God of the Bible they believe in.

In my case I compare my life to before I read the Bible to after I read the Bible and started to apply it to my life. For me it is a no brainer. My life is way better now then it was back then. There is no way I would ever go back to a life without God. I can only give a witness and a testimony to what I have found to be true.

 

[Rajni]

I really dislike the concept of Hell. I am really glad I don't have it in my belief system.

There is a branch of Christianity that doesn't believe in endless post-mortem torment (Christian universalism). While they likely don't win popularity points in church, they do exist (I was one before the bible and I had a falling-out of sorts, lol!). I'm still universalistic in my soteriology, though, even if I have distanced myself from churchdom's chaos.

 

[Rajni]

ONLY God is good and only what God puts in people is good. If there is non of God in you, then there is no good in you. Why would God take people to His Heaven if they do not want to be there? It would no longer be Heaven because there are people who do not want to be there.

So there's something about being in "hell" which is actually preferable to being in heaven?

 

[briareos]

If you define god as good you're actually saying that god is god or that good is good, a meaningless tautology. What is the basis of your assertion that god is good? -Because he says so? Then how do you differentiate between god and satan? Because I imagine satan would do the same thing, saying he is good. -Because you judge his actions to be good? But if your morality comes from this supreme being how can you judge at all? Your judgment becomes meaningless because you already presuppose that god is good. A supreme being who tells you that he is good, so that it confirms that he is good. It's a circular argument.

Some people would try to create a logical challenge to substantiate the goodness of their God, many christians would not and not need to do so at all. Neither do they feel the need to claim that all their beliefs are objective or subject to evidence based challenges. In this they are innocent, people are free to believe what they want to or even talk about as much as they want to.

 

[Skavau]

As to the OP, I don't think I understood the concept nearly as well until I got married. Then you realize that it is possible to forgive a repentant person for anything and to take them back into your heart; but it is impossible to truly forgive someone who does not admit s/he did something wrong.

You can only label this wrong if you label the inability to recognise God as something that is wrong and then you get into the situation of thought-crime. The idea that you can be condemned for what you think. Atheists may not recognise the one God that is actually true but that inability is based on intellect and not rebellion.

Do you think that you personally happen to be rebelling against the Islamic conception of God?

 

[briareos]

Yes OP if you aren't the member of the right fan club you go to hell.

Well that's a pretty crappy thing to say... strawman all day long. I see it wasn't really an argument at all but hey man, be fair.

The OP spoke of biblical teaching, so the biblical teaching is actually relevant and doesn't seem to be being discussed much. It's only to fair to discuss the reality of the teaching concerned, it is also needed in order to be accurate in your assessment.