Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[BleedingHeart]

So if I love you and you deny that love it is my fault?

It wouldn't be either one of our faults. There are many reasons we don't accept the love of another and not all of them are a product of our shortcomings.
But if you were to say "I'm going hurt you, or send you to a place where you are going to suffer because you didn't accept my love." I and many others could probably argue whether you actually love me at all.
Love has to be 100% voluntary. There can't be any coercion. There can't be any punishment. Or else it's not love. Just obedience.

 

[BleedingHeart]

Again, bleeding heart, the difference is whether or not you tried, to deny all faiths is to ultimately give up.

I'm confused. Are you implying I didn't try to be a Christian. I didn't stop until I was about 15.


"Even if the Islamic is right, then the Atheist is still in a hard place, so my point is that it's best to take a stand on at least something, otherwise, no matter who's right, it comes to your loss."
Well...wrong again. Remember a Creator could have theoretically have any number of character traits. Vanity, which could be assigned to the Abrahamic God might not be one of them, and a Creator might honestly not care if people like him or even belief in him. Maybe he or she has a perspective based on utilitarianism and only requires that people do less harm than they do good. Maybe he or she subjects an individual to a morality test that is black and white by his or her standard and judges the person based on that. Maybe the Creator asks the person "Pepsi or Coke" and judges them based on that. There is an infinite number of possibilities and you could just as easily find yourself getting as screwed in the dealt hand as me.

 

[Incariol]

It wouldn't be either one of our faults. There are many reasons we don't accept the love of another and not all of them are a product of our shortcomings.
But if you were to say "I'm going hurt you, or send you to a place where you are going to suffer because you didn't accept my love." I and many others could probably argue whether you actually love me at all.
Love has to be 100% voluntary. There can't be any coercion. There can't be any punishment. Or else it's not love. Just obedience.

The problem is that your going to that place of suffering is your fault, and a result of your decisions initially, not God's. His love, which is for you to accept, is a way to get out of the consequences of your decisions.

 

[FueledByJesus]

But you believe God is creator, so I'm exactly sure what you and I are arguing about, haha, you have your setbeliefs

 

[BleedingHeart]

The problem is that your going to that place of suffering is your fault, and a result of your decisions initially, not God's. His love, which is for you to accept, is a way to get out of the consequences of your decisions.

If I were to go to hell, it WOULD be God's responsibility for His choices and judgement of humanity, not mine. I'm sorry Christians but you simply cannot make an all powerful being that controls everything and then tell me that he's not responsible for anything bad that happens. And I think many of the people on this thread should rethink their definition of "love".

 

[FueledByJesus]

We were given will, I see that as a blessing. This has become a pointless, agressive (edit) contest. 4chan has a spot reserved for you if you want to harass people without listening to what they have to say.

 

[Incariol]

If I were to go to hell, it WOULD be God's responsibility for His choices and judgement of humanity, not mine. I'm sorry Christians but you simply cannot make an all powerful being that controls everything and then tell me that he's not responsible for anything bad that happens. And I think many of the people on this thread should rethink their definition of "love".

You're right. Christians don't think "love" means being a pushover and changing the law to coddle those you love, insulating them from the consequences of their actions.

 

[BleedingHeart]

We were given will, I see that as a blessing. This has become a pointless, agressive [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ing contest. 4chan has a spot reserved for you if you want to harass people without listening to what they have to say.

Excuse me? At what point did I harass you? Harassment is defined as continued contact that is knowingly unwanted. If you cannot take my criticism of your viewpoints then feel free to post in the Apologetics forum where you will never have to worry about being challenged by the likes of me or anyone else who has the audacity to disagree with you. And try and find something better than Pascal's Wager while you are at it.

@ Incariol: I guess the Christian perspective of love is blind obedience to a Master who's actions would be considered questionable in any other context? As any other person?

 

[Philothei]

It wouldn't be either one of our faults. There are many reasons we don't accept the love of another and not all of them are a product of our shortcomings.
But if you were to say "I'm going hurt you, or send you to a place where you are going to suffer because you didn't accept my love." I and many others could probably argue whether you actually love me at all.
Love has to be 100% voluntary. There can't be any coercion. There can't be any punishment. Or else it's not love. Just obedience.

It is a shortcoming when it comes to God ...for who would not want to love someone who is ALL love? The example was for the sake of argument but in reality God has "no beef" on this. He does not "need" for us to love Him back. We do not have to. The fact that the a father says "do not missbehave while I am gone" and the kids do is the father's fault? The father already said what they had to do.... The kids are to listen to Him. The "coersion" you talk about are consequences of one's actions. You are asking God to take resposibility for your choice and shortcoming. But God respects your free will to NOT chose Him. He leaves you also with the responsibility of your action. He does not demand obedience he ASKS for love. You are asking for a gift from God while you do not love Him back... How can you be given a gift from someone that you do not want to ackowledge that exists? I am at a loss...

 

[Mr.Williamson]

I honestly don't think a person like that would go to hell.

I personally believe that our God is a forgiving God, and that a person showing christian qualities (that are described in the bible) that doesn't believe in God should be allowed into heaven for his good actions on earth.

 

[Philothei]

If I were to go to hell, it WOULD be God's responsibility for His choices and judgement of humanity, not mine. I'm sorry Christians but you simply cannot make an all powerful being that controls everything and then tell me that he's not responsible for anything bad that happens. And I think many of the people on this thread should rethink their definition of "love".

No they won't rethink their definition as God is above our idea of human love. God is God we are humans. Some do realize that God transcends all reality and His mind is not our mind and His ways are not our ways. Also God is fair and just and merciful. Just as far as allowing us to be making choices that have consenquences. If I chose to take my life I can what this tells you? Is God omnipotent? Sure He is.... That does not negate His power or His might. God is above our logic and trascends all human reality so if we are into intellectual mind games that indeed would not prove God all powerful but then again we would not have even start to contemplate on Him. I think it is ellusive to look at love as a mere human expression of what it is... rather we should be reading and studying the Bible for what love is according to his revealed truth. The same with Hell and paradise

 

[Incariol]

I honestly don't think a person like that would go to hell.

I personally believe that our God is a forgiving God, and that a person showing christian qualities (that are described in the bible) that doesn't believe in God should be allowed into heaven for his good actions on earth.

But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

Hebrews 11:6

 

[Mr.Williamson]

But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

Hebrews 11:6

I know, I just feel that if God is love, and he made us in his image. Than would he punish a man/woman for doing good in life when they only made one true mistake?

I understand the evidence in scripture, but I can't wrap my head around it.

 

[Freodin]

Love has to be 100% voluntary. There can't be any coercion. There can't be any punishment. Or else it's not love. Just obedience.

This is a point where I have to disagree.

In fact, you are doing just the same things that the apologets for "God is love" do: you take an observation, interprete it under your worldview and declare that to be an objective standard.

It is a human observation that you cannot command love. But to conclude from this fact that you ought not command love is invalid.

On the other hand it is possible to induce love. Humans do it all the time... with gifts and good words and tenderness. Every time you court someone you are trying to make this person love you... and, for the good of our species, many time it works!

No one ever gets the idea that you mustn't court your prospective partner, because that would be "forcing" him/her. No one ever gets the idea that the love that grew between partners over their interaction wasn't "true love".


But with God, we fall back to these silly ideas... and we do so for the same reasons that we do not think our own relationships "forced".... because we are observing that love is not forced on humans by God. (I had to phrase it this way to leave the cause for this observation open).

If God were to do that... ought the clay question the ways of the potter?

 

[Freodin]

But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

Hebrews 11:6

I know that doubt of any kind is the greatest sin that a "true believer" can commit, but perhaps just for once you might consider the following.

The Bible is not God speaking directly to humans, laying out his plans and commands. It is written by humans and presents human thoughts about what God does and doesn't, should and shouldn't do.
It is the ancient version of this forum, where people post their thoughts, just like you and Mr.Williamson just did. It is an ancient version of this forum that contains much fewer participants, and where a lot more "moderating" took place.

As so what Paul (or whoever wrote Hebrews... a sockpuppet perhaps? ) said in this letter, was his view, not absolute divinly revealed truth.

 

[Incariol]

I know that doubt of any kind is the greatest sin that a "true believer" can commit, but perhaps just for once you might consider the following.

Huh? I hardly believe that, so I will certainly consider the following.

The Bible is not God speaking directly to humans, laying out his plans and commands. It is written by humans and presents human thoughts about what God does and doesn't, should and shouldn't do.
It is the ancient version of this forum, where people post their thoughts, just like you and Mr.Williamson just did. It is an ancient version of this forum that contains much fewer participants, and where a lot more "moderating" took place.

As so what Paul (or whoever wrote Hebrews... a sockpuppet perhaps? ) said in this letter, was his view, not absolute divinly revealed truth.

Perhaps, I'm hardly one of those people who think the KJV fell out of heaven in 33 A.D.. I think it is somewhat more authoritative than just a discussion and opinion.

 

[Freodin]

I think it is somewhat more authoritative than just a discussion and opinion.

Why do you think so?

 

[Incariol]

Why do you think so?

They were contemporaries with Jesus Christ, and so logically they would be in a better position to know what is correct and what is not than those of us centuries removed.

 

[Freodin]

They were contemporaries with Jesus Christ, and so logically they would be in a better position to know what is correct and what is not than those of us centuries removed.

Paul (and it is doubtfull that he even wrote Hebrews) has never met Jesus. So how would he know that "without faith it is impossible to please God"?

 

[Incariol]

Paul (and it is doubtfull that he even wrote Hebrews) has never met Jesus. So how would he know that "without faith it is impossible to please God"?