Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[Freodin]

That would require faith in God's revelation utlimately Freodin. And the description about Hell is mainly there in many of religious manifestations across our world. The Ancient Greeks started by saying that ο ανθρωπος was the only being that was standing upright the very word has to do with gazing up to God. Logically there has to be a master mind etc. There is a creator in all things around us...Things are not just "there" are they? Man be able to contemplate is by itself a miracle and if God was not threre why having that "option" then?

So yeah the texts and the Bible do point out to the same reality that of God and indeed exclude that possibility as if there no possibility of God existing why would we have that "yearning"?

Hell is in reality to me a spiritual death a place of no return for the very fact that if there is a creator and some who do not believe him ...they themselves cut off that possibility. I just prefer to be on His side not for fear of being wrong but for my inner disposition tells me so. it is all a matter of trusting there is a spiritual reality of our life.

I gues you misunderstood me. Must be my fault definitly... so many Christians do not understand what I am posting.

I try to clarify:

Religious texts - of any religion - well, any texts of any kind - express thoughts. What I write here represents the thoughts, the ideas, the conclusions that are in my mind just now as I pondering your post and try to find a fitting answer to it.

I could, for example, think and write: wow, that Philotei is really really stupid, not to get my point from the clear words I wrote.

I could, just as well, think and write: there, Freodin, botched it up again. Why can't you for once think better about what you write, so that everyone gets it correctly?

My thoughts and my thoughts only. Based on my experience, my reasoning, my conclusions.

Now if someone else comes around, reads what I wrote, and says for himself: "wow, he's so right. Philotei IS stupid/Freodin IS unable to express himself." and claims that to be a divinely revealed truth... would you say that this is correct?

If the thoughts I would write down had something to do with God.... say, "God really really hates gays" or "God doesn't care about your sexual orientation or actions"... would you say these thoughts were divinely inspired?

And now if some human, 2000 years ago, in a situation not unlike our own, confronted with theological problems of his own, from his own situation, from his fellow humans... wrote down something about these problems.... could it not at least be possible that he was writing down his own thoughts, instead of divinely revealed wisdom?

 

[b&wpac7]

You want to have your cake and eat it too. You simply can't have it both ways. If you decree that God is beyond our ideas of human love (and presumably justice, logic etc) then you can't accurately state anything about him. God's fairness, justness and mercy could be literally anything and you would still decree with absolute conviction that he was all three. To say that whatever God is and does is always merciful, just and fair effectively negates the words of any coherent meaning.

You're almost getting into the realm of negative theology here. That theology states that you cannot state what God is, only what God isn't. Such as God is not a man. God is not evil. Those kinds of things.

 

[Zaac]

Hm... perhaps you should do your own research?

The position of some Christians here, namedly Zaac and Tergle among others, is that God does not let you into Heaven (and you can make up your version of what the consequences of that really are: anihilaton, eternal hellfire, a Heaven of torment... whatever), if you don't repent, accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, ask for forgiveness... all that stuff and more.

These Christians have also said that whatever you do is worthless, sinful even, if you don't do it "for the glory of God".

The basis of all that is "Faith". I did, in this very thread, ask God for forgiveness. Somehow it got ignored - no one commented on it... but I am certain that the comments would have gone along the lines of "Ah, but you don't mean it! You are not sincere! You don't have FAITH!!!"

So without faith, you cannot please God. Without faith, all your actions are sinful. Without faith, you cannot be saved... you ARE NOT saved. (Those who don't believe in him are already damned... look up the correct quote for yourself.)



THIS is what I am talking about. And it seems to me that you agree with these guys.

And I want to know where you get that idea. Or, more precisely, where you get the idea that the source for that is correct.

We've got sense enough to not play games with you over such matters. You're still sporting that atheist avatar.

 

[Freodin]

We've got sense enough to not play games with you over such matters. You're still sporting that atheist avatar.

You don't have enough sense to know that I'm not playing games.

 

[Zaac]

I don't wonder if I will end up in hell. I don't believe in hell.

If you reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, no one else needs WONDER if you will end up in hell either. In accordance with what a Holy God says, you indeed will.

I am only interested in this discussion at 'rebuking' those who make the claim that hell exists and that all atheists deserve to go there. It is totalitarian. It is obscene and to hear it spoken from people who enjoy the liberty and prosperity of first-world democratic nations is extremely disturbing.

Again this is just something that you and the rest of the world are simply gonna have to deal with. No one here can do anything about you being offended about the exclusivity of Jesus Christ.

You've been given the Gospel SEVERAL times and folks have pleaded with you to accept God's truth in order to snatch you from the fires.

Yet you find it extremely disturbing that folks who don't really know you would be trying to get you to that which will save your from an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

I care for the same reason, again, that I care about what Scientologists believe and the same reason that I have spoken against that. The product of the beliefs regarding Scientology produce evil and the product of eternal torture produces evil.

And where exactly does YOUR measure of evil derive itself?

Did you see Zaac's statement where he admitted that he hated his parents and children?

Gosh you're funny. But you've been misrepresenting what I've said throughout this entire thread so I'm not surprised.

For the record, I quoted Scripture. And as I've said repeatedly, that just highlights that your real problem is with GOD and HIS word.

 

[Zaac]

You don't have enough sense to know that I'm not playing games.

I've got enough sense to know that you wouldn't still be brandishing an atheist avatar even after it was brought to your attention if you had truly sought the forgiveness of Jesus Christ and accepted Him as your Lord and Savior.

You don't have an encounter with the Creator of all things and continue in the status quo. So if your asking for forgiveness was sincere, take it down.

 

[Skavau]

If you reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, no one else needs WONDER if you will end up in hell either. In accordance with what a Holy God says, you indeed will.

Said with such confidence, but alas, just a meaningless prediction.

Again this is just something that you and the rest of the world are simply gonna have to deal with. No one here can do anything about you being offended about the exclusivity of Jesus Christ.

That's true. I just want it put out there. I want people to see the vulgar anti-humanistic ideals that some people are willing to promote in the name of God. I want it to be shown just how easy it is to get away with promoting such evil providing you underline it with God.

You've been given the Gospel SEVERAL times and folks have pleaded with you to accept God's truth in order to snatch you from the fires.

It is mostly you that has rather haphazardly been 'presenting' me with the gospel. In any case, those who do so are literally missing the point entirely. If the gospel does say that atheists and all Non-Christians receive eternal hell then it is a gospel not worth accepting and a God not worth believing in. I will not be told that I ought worship a tyrant.

Yet you find it extremely disturbing that folks who don't really know you would be trying to get you to that which will save your from an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

That's not what I find disturbing. I find it disturbing that you hold those beliefs. I find it disturbing that humanity literally means nothing to you. I find it disturbing that your only behavioural constraint and criteria for morality is what God says. I find it disturbing that you admitted to hating your family on behalf of God.

And where exactly does YOUR measure of evil derive itself?

I answered this to another poster earlier. Sadism is what could be most accurately described as 'pure' evil. Those who would deliberately infringe the liberty of others also fall under that umbrella.

It derives from humanism, though.

Gosh you're funny. But you've been misrepresenting what I've said throughout this entire thread so I'm not surprised.

For the record, I quoted Scripture. And as I've said repeatedly, that just highlights that your real problem is with GOD and HIS word.

Yeah, you did quote scripture. The scripture was informing you to hate your family (along with yourself). Sadomasochism defined.

 

[Freodin]

I've got enough sense to know that you wouldn't still be brandishing an atheist avatar even after it was brought to your attention if you had truly sought the forgiveness of Jesus Christ and accepted Him as your Lord and Savior.

You don't have an encounter with the Creator of all things and continue in the status quo. So if your asking for forgiveness was sincere, take it down.

I have little hope that you of all people will understand that dilemma... even try to understand it.

I can sincerely ask for forgiveness: if there is any deity that I might have slighted, I am sorry. I don't mean to.
I can sincerely accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour: if he wants to save me, I have no qualms with that.

I have just one little problem that disqualifies me from being a Christian, and, in your view, receiving God's forgiveness... I do not believe in the existence of God.

I wouldn't know how to do that. I haven't heard or experienced any reasons to convince me that any kind of God might be real. It is not something that I can switch on or off, or consciously decide.

I don't believe in God. According to various Christian doctrines, I cannot believe in God until he "draws" me. Well, he doesn't.
According to other Christian doctrines, he does draw me... but I am deliberately ignoring or rejecting him. I cannot convince you of the opposite... there simply exists no way for me to do that.

But I know my own mind and my own conscience... and I know that what your type of Christianity says about it is false.

I am left with no other option than to conclude that you are wrong in your position.

 

[Freodin]

It is mostly you that has rather haphazardly been 'presenting' me with the gospel. In any case, those who do so are literally missing the point entirely. If the gospel does say that atheists and all Non-Christians receive eternal hell then it is a gospel not worth accepting and a God not worth believing in. I will not be told that I ought worship a tyrant.

My basic scepticsm does not allow me to hold such an absolute position.
While I agree with the basics, I can still see the option to reconcile myself with such a "tyrant".

It could be true. It could be just. It could be good and right. It could be worth accepting. Perhaps what the Bible says IS indeed true and the only right way.

But I don't believe it.

 

[Skavau]

My basic scepticsm does not allow me to hold such an absolute position.
While I agree with the basics, I can still see the option to reconcile myself with such a "tyrant".

It could be true. It could be just. It could be good and right. It could be worth accepting. Perhaps what the Bible says IS indeed true and the only right way.

But I don't believe it.

Then that argument needs to be made - and it needs to be made to be very convincing. I, perhaps surprisingly you think, don't grant those who would justify both torture and thought-crime much.

 

[Freodin]

Then that argument needs to be made - and it needs to be made to be very convincing. I, perhaps surprisingly you think, don't grant those who would justify both torture and thought-crime much.

Yes, that is the problem. The argument needs to be very convincing.

And that is the one little thing that these Christians don't understand: if the argument was convincing... I would be convinced.

It is a flaw in the argument, the ones who bring it up... or the one who even shirk from bringing any...

... but as long as they can claim that the fault is with me, they are safe and sound in their own world.

 

[Zaac]

Said with such confidence, but alas, just a meaningless prediction.

I'm not predicting anything. I hope you accept Jesus Christ as Lord and savior and spend eternity with Him. But if you don't, you will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. That's not a prediction. That's a god-given fact.

That's true. I just want it put out there. I want people to see the vulgar anti-humanistic ideals that some people are willing to promote in the name of God. I want it to be shown just how easy it is to get away with promoting such evil providing you underline it with God.

I'm sorry if it offends your sensibilities. But Christians don't serve humanistic ideals. We serve Jesus Christ.

It is mostly you that has rather haphazardly been 'presenting' me with the gospel. In any case, those who do so are literally missing the point entirely. If the gospel does say that atheists and all Non-Christians receive eternal hell then it is a gospel not worth accepting and a God not worth believing in. I will not be told that I ought worship a tyrant.

And I've said before, there will be a lot of people in the Lake of Fire because they proudly refused to have anybody tell them what they ought to do.

I get that you don't like being told what to do. But to be saved, GOD, not you, must be the head. Salvation comes as a result of a person humbly recognizing that he needs to be saved.

You're stuck on your refusal to be told what to do. That's called pride.

That's not what I find disturbing. I find it disturbing that you hold those beliefs. I find it disturbing that humanity literally means nothing to you.

That's because you think humanity is the center of everything. It ain't.

I find it disturbing that your only behavioural constraint and criteria for morality is what God says.

Oh well. You worship that which was created. I will worship and adhere to the CREATOR.

I find it disturbing that you admitted to hating your family on behalf of God

.

I find it interesting that you keep misrepresenting the SCRIPTURE that I posted. Guess it helps you to attempt to make a point.

I answered this to another poster earlier. Sadism is what could be most accurately described as 'pure' evil. Those who would deliberately infringe the liberty of others also fall under that umbrella.

It derives from humanism, though.

Exactly. You ride around on your high horse claiming that there is no god, yet you've made humanism into your god. Imagine that.

Yeah, you did quote scripture. The scripture was informing you to hate your family (along with yourself). Sadomasochism defined.

[/QUOTE]

For the uniformed the Scripture was directing Christians that they must love God so much that their relationships with their family members would be LIKE hate in comparison.

But it is the word of God. Non-Christians aren't supposed to understand it so I understand your confusion on me quoting such a thing.

 

[Skavau]

I'm not predicting anything. I hope you accept Jesus Christ as Lord and savior and spend eternity with Him. But if you don't, you will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. That's not a prediction. That's a god-given fact.

You claim it is a fact. In any case, were your hope at all moral I would be grateful for it - but it is not, and so I remain dismissive.

I'm sorry if it offends your sensibilities. But Christians don't serve humanistic ideals. We serve Jesus Christ.

Yes, you've been quite consistent in showcasing your contempt and antipathy for humanity.

And I've said before, there will be a lot of people in the Lake of Fire because they proudly refused to have anybody tell them what they ought to do.

There's another reason why the lake of fire then is the work of a tyrant.

I get that you don't like being told what to do. But to be saved, GOD, not you, must be the head. Salvation comes as a result of a person humbly recognizing that he needs to be saved.

You're stuck on your refusal to be told what to do. That's called pride.

If you think my argument is simply based on not liking being told what to do, then you don't understand my argument at all. It is based on a moral opposition to the indefensible concept of eternal torture for what one thinks. A God that would mandate that is a God not worth worshipping.

That's because you think humanity is the center of everything. It ain't.

It is to me.

Exactly. You ride around on your high horse claiming that there is no god, yet you've made humanism into your god. Imagine that.

That sentence is semantically null. It is a complete non-sequitor.

For the uniformed the Scripture was directing Christians that they must love God so much that their relationships with their family members would be LIKE hate in comparison.

That is equally as disturbing. The fact that you posted that after I prompted it by suggesting you would hate your family and children if God told you to said it all and my actual point remained entirely unchallenged: You would hate your family and children (and possibly worse) if you believe God mandated you to do so. You're willing now to hate them in comparison to God - it is just one step further to hate them on his authority.

 

[Zaac]

I have little hope that you of all people will understand that dilemma... even try to understand it.

I can sincerely ask for forgiveness: if there is any deity that I might have slighted, I am sorry. I don't mean to.

Freodin, unless you have come to faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, your "sincerity" was not sincere.

I can sincerely accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour: if he wants to save me, I have no qualms with that.

If you sincerely could have, you already sincerely would have. Both you and God will know when you are being sincere.

I have just one little problem that disqualifies me from being a Christian, and, in your view, receiving God's forgiveness... I do not believe in the existence of God.

That's a biggie. As God himself says that He has shown you that there is a God.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but theybecame futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Romans 1:18-23

I get the impression that you haven't completely closed the door on there being God. You just want some answers so that you can faithfully believe. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I wouldn't know how to do that. I haven't heard or experienced any reasons to convince me that any kind of God might be real. It is not something that I can switch on or off, or consciously decide.

I don't think anyone cn convince you that there is a God. You must seek Him yourself. Ask Him to prove that He is there. Ask Him to prove that He is Who He says He is.

I could give you a list of things that God has done and it wouldn't mean anything to you because it wouldn't be personal. He IS a personal God who wants to be in PERSONAL relationship with each of us.

So ask Him to prove to you that HE exists. And then look around you and see the miracles that He performs for you everyday.

If you really want the truth, he WILL give you the truth.

I don't believe in God. According to various Christian doctrines, I cannot believe in God until he "draws" me. Well, he doesn't.
According to other Christian doctrines, he does draw me... but I am deliberately ignoring or rejecting him. I cannot convince you of the opposite... there simply exists no way for me to do that.

But you say that you are an atheist, and thus don't believe there is anything to draw you or for you to draw to. If you want GOD to prove Himself, then give Him a chance by considering the possibility FIRST that there is indeed a God who has greatly designed you and your existence and everything therein.

But I know my own mind and my own conscience... and I know that what your type of Christianity says about it is false.

You have the option to trust your mind or to trust the One Who gave you that beautiful, complex mind.

I am left with no other option than to conclude that you are wrong in your position.

I am a follower of Jesus Christ preaching His word. You're a professing atheist. You should feel that the position I present is wrong.

But as I stated earlier, if you really want the truth, then allow yourself to move from there is no God to what if there is and see what that opens up in the realm of receiving truth from Him.

Give it a go.

 

[Freodin]

Freodin, unless you have come to faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, your "sincerity" was not sincere.



If you sincerely could have, you already sincerely would have. Both you and God will know when you are being sincere.



That's a biggie. As God himself says that He has shown you that there is a God.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but theybecame futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Romans 1:18-23

I get the impression that you haven't completely closed the door on there being God. You just want some answers so that you can faithfully believe. And there is nothing wrong with that.



I don't think anyone cn convince you that there is a God. You must seek Him yourself. Ask Him to prove that He is there. Ask Him to prove that He is Who He says He is.

I could give you a list of things that God has done and it wouldn't mean anything to you because it wouldn't be personal. He IS a personal God who wants to be in PERSONAL relationship with each of us.

So ask Him to prove to you that HE exists. And then look around you and see the miracles that He performs for you everyday.

If you really want the truth, he WILL give you the truth.





But you say that you are an atheist, and thus don't believe there is anything to draw you or for you to draw to. If you want GOD to prove Himself, then give Him a chance by considering the possibility FIRST that there is indeed a God who has greatly designed you and your existence and everything therein.




You have the option to trust your mind or to trust the One Who gave you that beautiful, complex mind.



I am a follower of Jesus Christ preaching His word. You're a professing atheist. You should feel that the position I present is wrong.

But as I stated earlier, if you really want the truth, then allow yourself to move from there is no God to what if there is and see what that opens up in the realm of receiving truth from Him.

Give it a go.

Quid pro quo, Zaac.

I have, as you can see, been on this forum for nine years, and you are not the first that present me with that proposition.

I did. I did ask God to prove himself to me. I can ask now. I just did now, this very minute.

If I don't receive a response... AGAIN!... will you at least consider that there is nothing that could respond... or will you fall back to accusing me of not being sincere again?

 

[Zaac]

You claim it is a fact. In any case, were your hope at all moral I would be grateful for it - but it is not, and so I remain dismissive.

You remain dismissive because of a hardened heart and a desire to continue being your own god. That's the eseence of humanism.

Yes, you've been quite consistent in showcasing your contempt and antipathy for humanity.

You call it contempt and antipathy. I call it knowing God's order. And in my Christ-centric worldview, humanity does not come before GOD.

There's another reason why the lake of fire then is the work of a tyrant.

Perhaps people who will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire will view god as a tyrant. But it's not like He didn't give you a chance to turn from your love of you and the things of this world to a love of Him.

If you don't love Him, why would He want to spend eternity with you? You CHOOSE to reject Him, so He has established a place where you don't have to have anything to do with Him just as you say you don't.

So there shouldn't be any complaints. There won't be a Jesus Christ in the Lake of Fire telling you what to do.

If you think my argument is simply based on not liking being told what to do, then you don't understand my argument at all. It is based on a moral opposition to the indefensible concept of eternal torture for what one thinks. A God that would mandate that is a God not worth worshipping.

Your argument is based on you being your own god, and thus not wanting anyone else to step on your "royal" toes. You've been in existence a skant breath, yet you think you get t dictate what is/is not moral. That's just funny.

It is to me.

And that's why I say that I find it odd that the confessing atheist and humanist has made himself a god out of humanity.

That sentence is semantically null. It is a complete non-sequitor.

I didn't expect you to have an answer for why you, the atheist, has made a god out of humanism and humanity when you say you don't believe in a god as an atheist.

That is equally as disturbing. The fact that you posted that after I prompted it by suggesting you would hate your family and children if God told you to said it all and my actual point remained entirely unchallenged: You would hate your family and children (and possibly worse) if you believe God mandated you to do so. You're willing now to hate them in comparison to God - it is just one step further to hate them on his authority.

It should be just as disturbing and confusing to those who reject Him as Lord and Savior as is Love your Enemies. His ways are not your ways.

That's why He is God and you are not.

 

[BleedingHeart]

No they won't rethink their definition as God is above our idea of human love. God is God we are humans. Some do realize that God transcends all reality and His mind is not our mind and His ways are not our ways. Also God is fair and just and merciful. Just as far as allowing us to be making choices that have consenquences. If I chose to take my life I can what this tells you? Is God omnipotent? Sure He is.... That does not negate His power or His might. God is above our logic and trascends all human reality so if we are into intellectual mind games that indeed would not prove God all powerful but then again we would not have even start to contemplate on Him. I think it is ellusive to look at love as a mere human expression of what it is... rather we should be reading and studying the Bible for what love is according to his revealed truth. The same with Hell and paradise

So essentially you have to make a double-standard in order to see God as good.
I guess this is where the "faith" part comes in.

He does not demand obedience he ASKS for love.

Except he's not asking. He's ordering under threat of eternal punishment.

 

[Skavau]

You remain dismissive because of a hardened heart and a desire to continue being your own god. That's the eseence of humanism.

If a desire to "continue being your own God" is synonymous with a desire to remain self-autonomous in my decisions in life, then count me as guilty. I'd like to make my own decisions on my own terms, not at the demand of anyone else.

You call it contempt and antipathy. I call it knowing God's order. And in my Christ-centric worldview, humanity does not come before GOD.

Whether you call it knowing God's order does not matter. You still hold contempt and open antipathy towards humanity and civilization itself. The fact that you think God comes before us just says it all.

Perhaps people who will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire will view god as a tyrant. But it's not like He didn't give you a chance to turn from your love of you and the things of this world to a love of Him.

Your God (and you, by extension) would have me sacrifice my own intellectual integrity for reasons of self-interest.

If you don't love Him, why would He want to spend eternity with you?

A valid question. If I don't love him, then why is it required that I receive eternal torture for it?

You CHOOSE to reject Him, so He has established a place where you don't have to have anything to do with Him just as you say you don't.

Except this is circular. I 'choose' to reject a specific concept of God that supports eternal torture for thought-crime. For God on that to send me to the place that I reject him for is absurd.

Your argument is based on you being your own god, and thus not wanting anyone else to step on your "royal" toes.

My argument is based on holding torture in open contempt. My argument is based on holding thought-crime in open contempt.

You've been in existence a skant breath, yet you think you get t dictate what is/is not moral. That's just funny.

I await with baited breath an argument that justifies eternal torture for thought-crime. I haven't seen one yet.

And that's why I say that I find it odd that the confessing atheist and humanist has made himself a god out of humanity.

Whatever 'God' means in that context.

I didn't expect you to have an answer for why you, the atheist, has made a god out of humanism and humanity when you say you don't believe in a god as an atheist.

Precisely. That is why the claim that I view myself as my own God is absurd on its face.

It should be just as disturbing and confusing to those who reject Him as Lord and Savior as is Love your Enemies. His ways are not your ways.

I don't find it confusing: for I know the only reason you're not a murderer, rapist, thief (etc).

 

[Zaac]

Quid pro quo, Zaac.

I have, as you can see, been on this forum for nine years, and you are not the first that present me with that proposition.

Freodin I knew before I made the statement that the proposition had been made before.

But might I ask, if you really believe there to be no God, why even attempt to sincerely ask? Maybe you are more agnostic than atheist.

I did. I did ask God to prove himself to me. I can ask now. I just did now, this very minute.

Now look at the things around you. Look at the sky. Look at how everything around you is working together as though someone sat down with Microsoft Project and drew flow diagrams for ho everything would be interdependent and work in conjunction.

It didn't just happen. It was designed.

REALLY look around you and see what is going on.

If I don't receive a response... AGAIN!... will you at least consider that there is nothing that could respond... or will you fall back to accusing me of not being sincere again?

If you are sincerely looking for the truth, God has given His promise that you will find the truth.

 

[Freodin]

Freodin I knew before I made the statement that the proposition had been made before.

But might I ask, if you really believe there to be no God, why even attempt to sincerely ask? Maybe you are more agnostic than atheist.

It might surprise you, but I am not required to adhere to your definition of terms. In nine years of posting here, I have had that question before and answered it before. It is one of the reasons I am here: to explain what Atheism and Agnosticism means to me as often as it is asked... sometimes more than once by the same person.

Belief is not certain. It is a personal evaluation of a situation. What I believe might be false... but as long as I don't have any reason to change it, I won't.
Agnosticism is a position on knowlegde. I don't know whether God exists or not.
These positions are not mutually exclusive.

Now look at the things around you. Look at the sky. Look at how everything around you is working together as though someone sat down with Microsoft Project and drew flow diagrams for ho everything would be interdependent and work in conjunction.

It didn't just happen. It was designed.

REALLY look around you and see what is going on.

As I said in a previous post: I would need a convincing argument to be convinced. You might consider this convincing... I don't.
But I'm sure God would be able to come up with a better argument than one that I didn't find convincing the last sixhundred times I've heard it.

If you are sincerely looking for the truth, God has given His promise that you will find the truth.

So if I don't find the truth - or what you think it is - that means I am not sincerely looking?