Atheism, not Islam is the enemy of Christianity

[oi_antz]

No. Here's the problem we keep having: you insert your reality as though it was mine. You can't do that. I'm not saying that I don't like God if He's petty, I'm saying I can't believe in that God. It's not a matter of preference, it is simply a matter of what I am capable of believing.

Well I personally wouldn't call God petty for hating those who disrespect Him. I think when you get to see God's point of view, then you will understand why He would be upset. It is my belief that after death you will be forced to see His point of view and it will be agonizing. We are told there is no salvation after death, it would be wise to use the time He has given you to seek out His point of view. We aren't really achieving that here, we are only arguing.

I approve of the God who loves everyone and looks out for their best interests. I like that God, but I can't believe in that God either.

That is precisely your problem. Notice that you have made it a problem.

I really like the God I grew up with, I really do. But, I cannot believe in him.

I don't know about that. Tell me something, why were you declared heretical?

I really like the God concept I have now. Of course, I cannot actually believe in that either. I like the God who created low-fat ice cream that tastes good, and flying, talking chihuahuas. But I can't believe in that God because that's not my reality. These concepts just don't fit into the universe I see around me. It's not that I disapprove, it's that the idea that God is petty doesn't make sense.

He would make sense if you would listen to Him. Just once is all it takes and then you'll be understanding Him forever.

Let me make sure I'm hearing this right, because I want to be sure: You're saying that I'm a coward because I question your "truth" instead of simply accepting it? It isn't so much that it's convenient for my "truth" to be right, as much as it is impossible for me to simply accept your "truth" just because you claim it's the truth. Do you understand that?

There is the truth about Jesus. There is the truth about YHWH. If you don't agree with the truth then you do not have the spirit of truth.

Presumably there are lots of things you could say to convince me. I don't know what they are, and I suppose you don't either, but arguments which employ "you must accept..." or "The Bible says..." just don't work for me.

The bible are not my words, but they are the words by which we may come to know God.

I suppose that must be frustrating

You tell me.

, but you have to understand that I can't just accept something like this on someone else's word, you have to show me that your truth can fit into my reality. You can't just shout "I have the truth, and you don't!" That's what everybody else does.

No offence intended, but your view of reality appears to be skewed since you don't know God. There is no safety in numbers on this issue, it is very black and white and time will prove it.

True, I cannot see it as you see it, that is literally an impossibility. I am not you, and only you can see things the way you see them. If you could show me something a little more objective, then we might have an entirely different ball game...

No, faith is so personal that I have no right to invade your space. It's between you and Jesus.

If I were to ask "those Christians" whether they have "worked hard enough to be victorious over their demons," what do you suppose they'd say?

Ray answered this very well.

So the authorities who claim that the Bible is true, are the same people who wrote the Bible, or otherwise appear in the Bible? The authoritative declaration that the Bible itself is an authority, is found in the Bible itself? And God declared that the Bible is His Holy Word...in the Bible?

Yep. It requires sole dedication to trusting God, exceeding a lifetime commitment, exceeding anything that may obstruct it.

You really don't see where I'm going to have a problem with that?

Not my problem. It is your problem. If you can't trust God and trust that what God tells you is true, then you're not fit for eternal life. You've just repeated the mistake that Adam and Eve made.

For instance, how do we know that the Holy Spirit tells us that Moses was an honest man?

First you have to know the Holy Spirit.

I don't understand the question.

You said you don't believe that anyone's concept of Christ is correct. The way you said it implies that you had your own concept of Christ. That is what we would like to know.

Okay, but if I knew that another History of God and man was true, then I would have to say you were wrong. And since I don't know that your history of God and man is true, I can't just accept it because you say so.

You don't even have to accept it. All you need to do is behave in a Christ like manner and trust that Jesus will save you from Hell. Be baptized and that's all you need to do, you will be Christian!

What I mean is: How do you comprehend God? What do you understand God to be?

God is the spiritual force in which all things consist. Heaven and earth are created by Him. The eternal Word (Genesis 1, John 1), through whom the heavens and earth were made, was made fully human in Jesus. The Word is the deity of Christ. Jesus is the Word made human, who sits on God's right hand with all authority in heaven and earth, who can take or spare our lives with a command, and who holds the keys to hades. That is my concept of God.

Perfect, because here's the thing: I'm a telepath. Like Proessor X. That means I can actually tell you what someone is thinking, even when they themselves don't know they're thinking it. Now tell me honestly, do you believe me?

Don't be silly, telepathy is demonic and requires both parties to be willing.

Well not that I agree with that, but perhaps a better question would be: why would Christians not hate someone so foolish, especially if their God does? Are you prepared to claim that you are more loving, and more patient than even God?

Not at all, but I can say that my life is incredibly simplistic compared to His.

However, the aforementioned "fool" has said there is no God. How can "the fool" hate such a God, if they don't believe It exists? I mean, do you hate Shiva? Orion? Zeus?

Argumentative.

Well JGG, I have started a new job, so time has become too valuable to spend discussing things that aren't productive (you know what I'm like). So let me know if there is anything else I can say to help you with your search. As you can see regarding the OP, it appears that Christianity is being sabotaged from within, it's certainly not the first time it has happened, in fact Paul wrote of it happening and the early gnostics had a go at it too. Look up the definition of "Nicolaitan". Notice this describes a large proportion of those demonic Christians that you have proposed to be the majority of believers (which I would argue about, there are many many humble believers in various churches. You seem to be exposing yourself to a lot of bad eggs).

 

[JGG]

The statement made in 2:45 is an oxymoron to the overall message of this clip! Are you sure you think this is a representation of Christianity? This guy is waging war on Darwinist's, yet at 2:45 he states

If you think this is a Christian message then surely Christianity is it's own enemy. However it isn't a Christian message, this clip carries an anti-Christian message. Remember what Jesus said about the eye being the lamp by which the body is filled with light? If the light is actually darkness then the darkness must run deep. Also remember that Jesus hates Nicolaitans.

AFIC this guy is jerkin' just as bad as certain un-named atheist's that go trolling around looking for fights. Seriously man, you seem to be quite sensitive to derived meaning, how about being fair to Jesus Christ's cause?

I confess I was far more interested in reactions to Dinesh D'Souza as according to Amazon, he "...is among the most popular, and influencial Christian authors of the new millenium."

The video was just comical.

Well I personally wouldn't call God petty for hating those who disrespect Him. I think when you get to see God's point of view, then you will understand why He would be upset. It is my belief that after death you will be forced to see His point of view and it will be agonizing. We are told there is no salvation after death, it would be wise to use the time He has given you to seek out His point of view. We aren't really achieving that here, we are only arguing.

Again, that's a problem. You're talking about a God, whose point-of-view I can understand? How could that be possible? To me, a God of that scope is way too small.

That is precisely your problem. Notice that you have made it a problem.

That may the problem, but I didn't make it my problem. It doesn't fit into reality. What do I do about that?

I don't know about that. Tell me something, why were you declared heretical?

I married a Jew. Actually technically, I "associated" with a Jew. I didn't marry until about 2 years later.

He would make sense if you would listen to Him. Just once is all it takes and then you'll be understanding Him forever.

No, you don't get to say that. I listened and looked for God for a long time. I struggled with my faith for years. God didn't say anything to me, nor did God appear. I received no guidance, I was given no signs. So, I got realistic and moved on. Nobody gets to say "If only you'd listen..." or "If only you'd listen harder..."

I figure, from your perspective, you can look at that one of two ways:

(1) For whatever reason God intends for me not to believe, or (2) God rejected me. However, you really don't get to say that I rejected God. I was sort of stood up.

There is the truth about Jesus. There is the truth about YHWH. If you don't agree with the truth then you do not have the spirit of truth.

I actually kinda agree with that. Which is exactly why I am where I am. Only I suspect my view is a bit bigger.

The bible are not my words, but they are the words by which we may come to know God.

Have you considered using your words? I've read the bible, I've studied the bible. Clearly by bringing me bible verses you're not bringing anything particularly new. So why not bring something new? Surely you have a perspective that isn't found in the bible?

You tell me.

Yeah, very frustrating.

No offence intended, but your view of reality appears to be skewed since you don't know God. There is no safety in numbers on this issue, it is very black and white and time will prove it.

My view is skewed by every thought, every interaction, and every event that I have experienced over the course of my lifetime. I cannot change that. That's what makes me who I am. From your perspective I'd guess I could say that that's how God made me. In the same way your view of reality is also skewed by your thoughts, your interactions, and the events which have happened to you. If you've had an event that made you believe in God, that I have not, there's nothing I can do about that. I cannot experience it through you.

No, faith is so personal that I have no right to invade your space. It's between you and Jesus.

It's not invasion, it's sharing of relevant, pertinent, objective information. Save for a visit from God Himself, I imagine that's what it would take to convicne me that the Christian God exists. Can you share that objective information?

Ray answered this very well.

Perhaps you could paraphrase. I'm long done interacting with razeontherock.

Not my problem. It is your problem. If you can't trust God and trust that what God tells you is true, then you're not fit for eternal life. You've just repeated the mistake that Adam and Eve made.

By now you should know me well enough that trying to coerce me with threats of punishment, or promises of reward is not going to convince me. Trying to tell me that I'm inferior, or not fit, is not going to get me to lie to myself. I want to find the truth on it's merits, not by settling because of threats, bribes, or condescending remarks.

I don't understand how you figure God would not make Himself known when I was looking for Him, and then not only punish me for losing faith, but hate me for it on top of that? I mean, I can make sense of it, I don't get how you make sense of it. Again, if God wants me, I'm a pretty easy catch, but He would have to change the reality around me to do so.

First you have to know the Holy Spirit.

Is that before, or after I learn about the Holy Spirit in the Bible?

You said you don't believe that anyone's concept of Christ is correct. The way you said it implies that you had your own concept of Christ. That is what we would like to know.

Oh. I don't know at all. I just really doubt that after two thousand years anyone has a realistic view of a person based on a biography written by their religious followers. Just looking at modern religion tells me that.

God is the spiritual force in which all things consist.

Oh, well I like this idea.

Heaven and earth [and presumably Hell] are created by Him. The eternal Word (Genesis 1, John 1), through whom the heavens and earth were made, was made fully human in Jesus. The Word is the deity of Christ. Jesus is the Word made human, who sits on God's right hand with all authority in heaven and earth, who can take or spare our lives with a command, and who holds the keys to hades. That is my concept of God.

Some rocky parts, but actually, I don't entirely disagree with it. The concept of Jesus tends not to sit well with me, ditto with heaven and hell, but otherwise there's some similarities with my concept. Of course I don't have faith even in my concept, so take that for what you will.

Don't be silly, telepathy is demonic and requires both parties to be willing.

I can't even tell if you're joking. Okay, so you don't believe me?

Not at all, but I can say that my life is incredibly simplistic compared to His.

I don't understand "His life" and how yours would be simplistic by comparison? Again, that seems a really small God. Are you suggesting that God demands that you love those people that He does not? Those people that He hates?

Well JGG, I have started a new job, so time has become too valuable to spend discussing things that aren't productive (you know what I'm like). So let me know if there is anything else I can say to help you with your search. As you can see regarding the OP, it appears that Christianity is being sabotaged from within, it's certainly not the first time it has happened, in fact Paul wrote of it happening and the early gnostics had a go at it too. Look up the definition of "Nicolaitan". Notice this describes a large proportion of those demonic Christians that you have proposed to be the majority of believers (which I would argue about, there are many many humble believers in various churches. You seem to be exposing yourself to a lot of bad eggs).

Or you're exposing yourself to the few good ones.

 

[razeontherock]

No, you don't get to say that. I listened and looked for God for a long time. I struggled with my faith for years. God didn't say anything to me, nor did God appear. I received no guidance, I was given no signs. So, I got realistic and moved on. Nobody gets to say "If only you'd listen..." or "If only you'd listen harder..."

I figure, from your perspective, you can look at that one of two ways:

(1) For whatever reason God intends for me not to believe, or (2) God rejected me. However, you really don't get to say that I rejected God. I was sort of stood up.

Not sure what I did to offend you, but have you examined if your approach to G-d was along His lines?

 

[susan.baker]

Interesting.

 

[JGG]

Interesting.

Thank you. I have my charms...

 

[JGG]

By they way Antz, I'd love to see what you think of the dialogue in this thread.

 

[oi_antz]

I confess I was far more interested in reactions to Dinesh D'Souza as according to Amazon, he "...is among the most popular, and influencial Christian authors of the new millenium."

The video was just comical.

.

Again, that's a problem. You're talking about a God, whose point-of-view I can understand? How could that be possible? To me, a God of that scope is way too small.

Yes you can understand His point of view well enough to be sufficed. That is to say, if you would allow yourself to do so. When I did it, it took three weeks of intense soul searching to prepare myself to hear God's voice. I don't know what it would take for you to prepare yourself, it may take more than that, it may not. Who knows?

That may the problem, but I didn't make it my problem. It doesn't fit into reality. What do I do about that?

Forgive.

I married a Jew. Actually technically, I "associated" with a Jew. I didn't marry until about 2 years later.

How absurd!

1 Corinthians 7:16
Don’t you wives realize that your husbands might be saved because of you? And don’t you husbands realize that your wives might be saved because of you?

No, you don't get to say that. I listened and looked for God for a long time. I struggled with my faith for years. God didn't say anything to me, nor did God appear. I received no guidance, I was given no signs. So, I got realistic and moved on. Nobody gets to say "If only you'd listen..." or "If only you'd listen harder..."

No it's not that so much, but rather you are thinking against God. When you say that the bible authors are untrustworthy, you are refusing to hear the truth about God. In one instant you can flip your state of mind to think in favor of God and then all the bible will appear to be true. But that requires a change in one's perspective of reality, it's not something that you can achieve, it is something that God gives us.

Ephesians 2
8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

I figure, from your perspective, you can look at that one of two ways:

(1) For whatever reason God intends for me not to believe, or (2) God rejected me. However, you really don't get to say that I rejected God. I was sort of stood up.

No, you were expecting something from God which He decided not to give you. There is ample opportunity to believe Him simply by what we know in the bible. The rest of your understanding of God will grow the more you think in favor of Him (ie, "listening to the Holy Spirit").

I actually kinda agree with that. Which is exactly why I am where I am. Only I suspect my view is a bit bigger.

Fair enough comment, but is your view big enough to include everything the bible says?

Have you considered using your words? I've read the bible, I've studied the bible. Clearly by bringing me bible verses you're not bringing anything particularly new. So why not bring something new? Surely you have a perspective that isn't found in the bible?

My words don't have the impact, nor the stability of those written by the prophets. Note later on in this post when I did attempt to use my own words, you assessed it as "rocky". Besides, the bible says everything I want to say in one way or another. When I quote the bible it is because it is such a condensed declaration of what I mean. When I write it is because I know my words are easier to understand than those of the bible. Seems the bible is something best used in drips and drabs (that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for good works).

Another point to note about this is the word count. I bet if you counted all the words I have spoken compared to all the words I have quoted, less than 1% of my material will be biblical.

Yeah, very frustrating.

I have noticed. You aren't the only one.

My view is skewed by every thought, every interaction, and every event that I have experienced over the course of my lifetime. I cannot change that. That's what makes me who I am. From your perspective I'd guess I could say that that's how God made me. In the same way your view of reality is also skewed by your thoughts, your interactions, and the events which have happened to you. If you've had an event that made you believe in God, that I have not, there's nothing I can do about that. I cannot experience it through you.

The event that made me believe in God was after watching the movie "Religulous" by Bill Mahr. I got quite upset that religion was causing so much trouble in our world, I had to get out there and make a noise. Funny thing is, when I really got into it I had to be honest that I love life so much that I want to thank the one who gave it to me. I always have pertained to that too, when asked "what will you say to God at the end of your life" I have always said I want to say "thanks for that, I really enjoyed it". So why if I had this faith in God, could I not say that I knew God? Why could these Christians be so sure that they truly knew God?

It's not invasion, it's sharing of relevant, pertinent, objective information. Save for a visit from God Himself, I imagine that's what it would take to convicne me that the Christian God exists. Can you share that objective information?

You wouldn't believe it. I'm just another talking bible.

Perhaps you could paraphrase. I'm long done interacting with razeontherock.

No, you should address it. My words are not a substitute for someone else's.

By now you should know me well enough that trying to coerce me with threats of punishment, or promises of reward is not going to convince me. Trying to tell me that I'm inferior, or not fit, is not going to get me to lie to myself. I want to find the truth on it's merits, not by settling because of threats, bribes, or condescending remarks.

It is a matter of fact, and that is one of the greatest lessons from the book of Genesis.

I don't understand how you figure God would not make Himself known when I was looking for Him, and then not only punish me for losing faith, but hate me for it on top of that? I mean, I can make sense of it, I don't get how you make sense of it. Again, if God wants me, I'm a pretty easy catch, but He would have to change the reality around me to do so.

Yep, but you have to wonder why would He choose you?

Is that before, or after I learn about the Holy Spirit in the Bible?

I would say most likely before you learn about the Holy Spirit in the bible. Remember that Jesus is the one who baptizes us with the Holy Spirit, therefore it is His decision when we are granted that gift.

Oh. I don't know at all. I just really doubt that after two thousand years anyone has a realistic view of a person based on a biography written by their religious followers. Just looking at modern religion tells me that.

Fair comment, the bible speaks about that too.

Oh, well I like this idea.

Some rocky parts, but actually, I don't entirely disagree with it. The concept of Jesus tends not to sit well with me, ditto with heaven and hell, but otherwise there's some similarities with my concept. Of course I don't have faith even in my concept, so take that for what you will.

Like I said, it is our own personal mission in life to understand God, and both Ray and I seem to agree that death is not the end of it.

I can't even tell if you're joking. Okay, so you don't believe me?

I don't care to be honest, as I said telepathy is demonic and requires both parties to be willing.

I don't understand "His life" and how yours would be simplistic by comparison? Again, that seems a really small God.

God is not small, He's at least bigger than anything we can perceive.

Are you suggesting that God demands that you love those people that He does not? Those people that He hates?

Yes.

Or you're exposing yourself to the few good ones.

I have been blessed, the wonderful thing about life is that it is so unique, no other person can ever experience it quite the way that I have

By they way Antz, I'd love to see what you think of the dialogue in this thread.

I don't have time to read the whole thread. I have seen pinkputter's comments, I think she is shaping up well. She's quite new, I first saw her just a few months ago, obviously there is a little bit of pride that needs to be contended with but given time I'm sure Jesus will shape her up. Theologically I don't see anything wrong with her spirit, but if I could offer advice I would say choosing softer gentle words are more effective than harsh crushing words.

 

[JGG]

Yes you can understand His point of view well enough to be sufficed. That is to say, if you would allow yourself to do so. When I did it, it took three weeks of intense soul searching to prepare myself to hear God's voice. I don't know what it would take for you to prepare yourself, it may take more than that, it may not. Who knows?

Firstly, it's like saying that an ant can understand the point-of-view of a human...except the gap would be larger.

Secondly, you told me that faith was easy. Now you're saying you had to "spiritually prepare" for weeks?

Forgive.

Forgive what?

How absurd!

Regardless, I believed them. I was told that I was going to burn for eternity in hell. I suffered over that for years because I believed them. Guess what? That's not happening to me again.

No it's not that so much, but rather you are thinking against God. When you say that the bible authors are untrustworthy, you are refusing to hear the truth about God. In one instant you can flip your state of mind to think in favor of God and then all the bible will appear to be true. But that requires a change in one's perspective of reality, it's not something that you can achieve, it is something that God gives us.

No, you were expecting something from God which He decided not to give you. There is ample opportunity to believe Him simply by what we know in the bible. The rest of your understanding of God will grow the more you think in favor of Him (ie, "listening to the Holy Spirit").

You're right. However, if I "flip my mind" so that I believe that my neighbour is a werewolf, I will start seeing all kinds of evidence that my neighbour is a werewolf, regardless of whether my neighbour is a werewolf (I'm fairly certain he is not). I need to understand something before I can believe in it. You're telling me that's impossible, and I need to get rid of my critical thinking. I just can't do that. That's how one tricks themselves into believing falsehoods. I honestly can't do that.

Fair enough comment, but is your view big enough to include everything the bible says?

The Bible really only makes God look smaller and smaller.

My words don't have the impact, nor the stability of those written by the prophets. Note later on in this post when I did attempt to use my own words, you assessed it as "rocky". Besides, the bible says everything I want to say in one way or another. When I quote the bible it is because it is such a condensed declaration of what I mean. When I write it is because I know my words are easier to understand than those of the bible. Seems the bible is something best used in drips and drabs (that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for good works).

Another point to note about this is the word count. I bet if you counted all the words I have spoken compared to all the words I have quoted, less than 1% of my material will be biblical.

Well, what can I say? I'm sure you did your best. To be fair, it's a bit of an uphill battle.

The event that made me believe in God was after watching the movie "Religulous" by Bill Mahr. I got quite upset that religion was causing so much trouble in our world, I had to get out there and make a noise.

That's hilarious! I thought he was a quack cherry-picker who was being totally unfair.

You wouldn't believe it. I'm just another talking bible.

Probably not that objective then.

No, you should address it. My words are not a substitute for someone else's.

Yeah, that's not going to happen.

It is a matter of fact, and that is one of the greatest lessons from the book of Genesis.

It would be dishonest of me. It asks me to believe out of selfish fear, greed, or shame. That's not an option. You should know that about me by now.

Yep, but you have to wonder why would He choose you?

Really the bigger question is why would He choose anyone? Why would He create a situation where that choice is needed?

Like I said, it is our own personal mission in life to understand God, and both Ray and I seem to agree that death is not the end of it.

Not the end of what?

God is not small, He's at least bigger than anything we can perceive.

And yet you claim to not simply perceive It, but understand It, speak for It, and see things from It's perspective.

I have been blessed, the wonderful thing about life is that it is so unique, no other person can ever experience it quite the way that I have

And yet, you seem utterly perplexed that I have not.

I don't have time to read the whole thread. I have seen pinkputter's comments, I think she is shaping up well. She's quite new, I first saw her just a few months ago, obviously there is a little bit of pride that needs to be contended with but given time I'm sure Jesus will shape her up. Theologically I don't see anything wrong with her spirit, but if I could offer advice I would say choosing softer gentle words are more effective than harsh crushing words.

Great cause thanks to her, I'm cleaning up on my quote collection. You really think she represents Christianity? Realistically, I certainly do. And might I point out: You can offer her that advice.

 

[oi_antz]

Firstly, it's like saying that an ant can understand the point-of-view of a human...except the gap would be larger.

Quite true, but it is a binary matter, what you are seeing is either light or dark.

Secondly, you told me that faith was easy. Now you're saying you had to "spiritually prepare" for weeks?

Well, no more than you are "spiritually preparing" I guess, except that you've been at it for five years according to the icon on your profile.

Forgive what?

This would be a good start:

Regardless, I believed them. I was told that I was going to burn for eternity in hell. I suffered over that for years because I believed them. Guess what? That's not happening to me again.

You're right. However, if I "flip my mind" so that I believe that my neighbour is a werewolf, I will start seeing all kinds of evidence that my neighbour is a werewolf, regardless of whether my neighbour is a werewolf (I'm fairly certain he is not). I need to understand something before I can believe in it. You're telling me that's impossible, and I need to get rid of my critical thinking. I just can't do that. That's how one tricks themselves into believing falsehoods. I honestly can't do that.

Do you think possibly this is why God might hate you? Despite the great lengths He has gone to, you are choosing not to think in His favor? Your "critical thinking" won't suffer, that is an intrinsic characteristic of your nature. I tell you, before I converted I too thought I had to lose some sort of intelligence in order to believe. It is a false assertion. The only difference is as I have said, you think in favor of God instead of against Him. What it requires is that you submit to His authority. First thing you need to do is accept that whatever constraints you have placed on your faith are not suitable to Him, and that whatever constraints He has placed on your faith must be accepted. Remember who is the wise one in your relationship, and trust that He is right to do it His way, then you will begin to understand why.

The Bible really only makes God look smaller and smaller.

The knowledge of God is not limited to the bible! Have you never grasped that we learn by listening to the Holy Spirit? Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart do not depend on your own understanding." What does it mean to trust in God?

Well, what can I say? I'm sure you did your best. To be fair, it's a bit of an uphill battle.

Why do you think I bother?

That's hilarious! I thought he was a quack cherry-picker who was being totally unfair.

He was. I still enjoyed it though. Really got me thinking about things I had never given much thought.

Probably not that objective then.

Not really, no.

Yeah, that's not going to happen.

See, forgiveness is a characteristic of Christ. Eye for an eye took a whole new meaning with Jesus. Some of us really do struggle to behave properly.

It would be dishonest of me. It asks me to believe out of selfish fear, greed, or shame. That's not an option. You should know that about me by now.

Well what is done is done. Ever heard that history never repeats? Only a fool would make the same mistake twice. I would advise you to investigate why you are so stubborn, wanting to force God to comply with your requirements. It's pretty clear that He's not going to. When push comes to shove, who do you think will get to have the last word?

Really the bigger question is why would He choose anyone? Why would He create a situation where that choice is needed?

The bible does tell us what happens to the "wheat" when it is harvested into the grain store. The Christian gospel tells us that God is the source of all goodness, and His love is unquenchable. God is the ultimate demonstration of selflessness. Humankind is not, that is what Jesus taught us by becoming a servant. I was just reading a good verse about this:

2 Timothy 2
20 In a wealthy home some utensils are made of gold and silver, and some are made of wood and clay. The expensive utensils are used for special occasions, and the cheap ones are for everyday use. 21 If you keep yourself pure, you will be a special utensil for honorable use. Your life will be clean, and you will be ready for the Master to use you for every good work.

Not the end of what?

Learning from God.

And yet you claim to not simply perceive It, but understand It, speak for It, and see things from It's perspective.

What can I say, I am only capable of performing according to the talent I am given.

And yet, you seem utterly perplexed that I have not.

It may seem that way to you, I don't intend to come across that way. I merely keep referring to the fact that you aren't prepared to think in favor of God. Why can you not accept Jesus? I am not actually qualified to know, it is for you to sort out with Him.

Great cause thanks to her, I'm cleaning up on my quote collection. You really think she represents Christianity? Realistically, I certainly do. And might I point out: You can offer her that advice.

No, I am not her shepherd, she will learn from her mistakes. Note also that you have just as much right to offer the same advice. Otherwise I may as well go around nit-picking with everyone and gain the appropriate reputation for doing so, asking for a bit of eye for an eye in return.

Edit:
I have pm'd pinkputter. Your advice is biblical. If we love Jesus we are instructed to feed His sheep:

15 After breakfast Jesus asked Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?[e]”

“Yes, Lord,” Peter replied, “you know I love you.”

“Then feed my lambs,” Jesus told him.

16 Jesus repeated the question: “Simon son of John, do you love me?”

“Yes, Lord,” Peter said, “you know I love you.”

“Then take care of my sheep,” Jesus said.

17 A third time he asked him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”

Peter was hurt that Jesus asked the question a third time. He said, “Lord, you know everything. You know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Then feed my sheep.

 

[JGG]

Quite true, but it is a binary matter, what you are seeing is either light or dark.

I really don't understand that.

Well, no more than you are "spiritually preparing" I guess, except that you've been at it for five years according to the icon on your profile.

This is my second profile. Lost my first one somehow. It's been a search for just over a decade now.

This would be a good start:

I don't think you understand. That's what happened when I didn't use critical thinking. It's not a matter of forgiveness. It's a matter of learning from my mistakes. And it was my mistake.

Do you think possibly this is why God might hate you? Despite the great lengths He has gone to, you are choosing not to think in His favor?

The great lengths He's gone to? Like what?

Your "critical thinking" won't suffer, that is an intrinsic characteristic of your nature.

Well, let's be honest faith and critical thinking don't mix. In order for me to have faith, I would have to actually get rid of my critical thinking.

The knowledge of God is not limited to the bible! Have you never grasped that we learn by listening to the Holy Spirit? Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart do not depend on your own understanding." What does it mean to trust in God?

Yes, but you said that the Bible was the only way to learn about God. Now, it's not?

Well what is done is done. Ever heard that history never repeats?

I thought it was "He that doesn't learn from history is doomed to repeat it."

Only a fool would make the same mistake twice. I would advise you to investigate why you are so stubborn, wanting to force God to comply with your requirements.

I would say that it's because "only a fool would make the same mistake twice."

It's pretty clear that He's not going to. When push comes to shove, who do you think will get to have the last word?

Who do you think I think will get to have the last word?

No, I am not her shepherd, she will learn from her mistakes. Note also that you have just as much right to offer the same advice. Otherwise I may as well go around nit-picking with everyone and gain the appropriate reputation for doing so, asking for a bit of eye for an eye in return.

No, I really can't. Someone like that is not going to listen to anything I have to say, I think you know why, and I think you know that I'm right.

 

[razeontherock]

The great lengths He's gone to? Like what?

Well, let's be honest faith and critical thinking don't mix.

You know better than both those statements.

 

[oi_antz]

I really don't understand that.

This is my second profile. Lost my first one somehow. It's been a search for just over a decade now.

I don't think you understand. That's what happened when I didn't use critical thinking. It's not a matter of forgiveness. It's a matter of learning from my mistakes. And it was my mistake.

The great lengths He's gone to? Like what?

Have you ever seen Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ? I remember when I first saw that, it's very effective given that its a 2 dimensional audio/visual media. Really though, the suffering Christ took upon Himself as Jesus is incredible. It scares the sh't from me every time I think of it, which is why I prefer to concentrate on how Good God is, how faithful He is to His promises.

Well, let's be honest faith and critical thinking don't mix. In order for me to have faith, I would have to actually get rid of my critical thinking.

I'm not sure about that, it is more a fact that you'd have to comply with God. I would be careful about making statements like this until you have actually tried.

Yes, but you said that the Bible was the only way to learn about God. Now, it's not?

I might have said it is the authority on God, but how do you suppose the authors learned about God?

I thought it was "He that doesn't learn from history is doomed to repeat it."

I would say that it's because "only a fool would make the same mistake twice."

.

Who do you think I think will get to have the last word?

No, I really can't. Someone like that is not going to listen to anything I have to say, I think you know why, and I think you know that I'm right.

Yes, I do know why actually. I don't agree that you couldn't invoke Christ through her though. Those folks she was talking to were winding her up by pushing all her buttons. So immature, a group of kids beating each other up. Surely there is something more constructive they could do..

 

[JGG]

Have you ever seen Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ? I remember when I first saw that, it's very effective given that its a 2 dimensional audio/visual media. Really though, the suffering Christ took upon Himself as Jesus is incredible. It scares the sh't from me every time I think of it, which is why I prefer to concentrate on how Good God is, how faithful He is to His promises.

Okay, why would that make me believe? I'm sorry, it just seems like a guilt trip. Why would got be upset if I don't believe? God, presumably, knows exactly why I don't believe. He could convince me in an instant. He could just make me believe. He could demonstrate His presence. God opts not to. Really, how could God hate me simply because I'm skeptical (which, realistically, is a very reasonable position, that Christians take with every other religion). What if I had faith, but had faith in the wrong God? Would your God still hate me for that? If not, what's the difference?

I'm not sure about that, it is more a fact that you'd have to comply with God. I would be careful about making statements like this until you have actually tried.

Well, faith is a belief not based on evidence, or despite the evidence. I think a sketpic nature is going to steamroll over that. Remember, I used to believe in God. I used to have faith. I learned not to trust faith.

To borrow from another poster, who borrowed from a church sign, which borrows from Martin Luther:

I might have said it is the authority on God, but how do you suppose the authors learned about God?

Presumably in the Old Testament they spent a great deal of time among the Romans and Egyptians. In fact, it seems that the OT God resembles their gods. Animal sacrifices, and punishing entire towns (or the whole of the Earth) for not worshipping Him properly bears a certain resemblence to Zeus, for instance. I would then suggest that the authors of the NT read the OT. Just my thoughts.

Yes, I do know why actually. I don't agree that you couldn't invoke Christ through her though. Those folks she was talking to were winding her up by pushing all her buttons. So immature, a group of kids beating each other up. Surely there is something more constructive they could do..

No no. No, no, no. So much no. Saying that "Those folks" were pushing her buttons does not cover it. Her sole response to me was a rant about how awful atheists were (even though she unintentionally agreed with me on the only arguable point I had made). I had only barely commented in the thread at all. She saw atheist, and immediately saw red. She is the example of the True Christians who have decided that atheists, en masse, are the enemy. If she's your example of a typical Christian, then I think the hypothesis of the thread is confirmed.

 

[rturner76]

Why would got be upset if I don't believe? God, presumably, knows exactly why I don't believe. He could convince me in an instant. He could just make me believe.

Here is where I feel I should interject a theory. This is food for thought, not for argument and it goes with what is stated below............
I theorize that the belief in God or in a higher power as it may present itself to your conscience, must be "believed" in to exercise the ingredient that exists within humans that makes us higher than animals. I surmise it is not JUST higher intelligence, because there is also contained within a human the ability to empathize. To put the needs of others before self in cases other than defense of offspring but whomever we so choose. Things like Gandhi and Dr King's protests of non violence to affect change in the mind and conscience of other human beings is evidence of a ingredient that exists within us besides survival instincts. I digress a bit but I theorize that these uniquely human ingredients or qualities are what must be developed in order to advance as a species naturally. We have been given clues by nature some believe a higher part of nature or "God" as it were, that lead us toward that further evolution of our species. This higher part of nature did never needed to expose itself for nature to come this far and the intelligence of this higher power or nature must feel revealing itself would only serve to give homo sapiens in our current form more reason to further enslave one another as this higher power or nature would still refuse to affect our free will. Could it be that we as a species must learn how to develop our higher empathetic, compassionate, nature before this power would dare to reveal itself? As a species we still feel violence, slavery, war, prostitution, and unspeakable abuse is still appropriate to continue perpetuate in this world. Perhaps, by learning to commune with our higher nature through following someone like Jesus Christ, who demonstrated the very best, human nature has to offer, we can begin to touch upon the strengths that are hidden deep within ourselves. I've heard it said "the kingdom of heaven is within you." Could it be that many are looking for a big grey bearded man to fall from the sky when this higher power is contained right there inside yourself? We just have to much of our own garbage in the way to access it? that would not be a vengeful or hateful God. It would be a God waiting to be discovered inside yourself. Jesus did it first. He challenged us to do it by what? Being humble, meek, putting others before self and giving all glory to your creator. Not so hard I think.



Well, faith is a belief not based on evidence, or despite the evidence. I think a sketpic nature is going to steamroll over that. Remember, I used to believe in God. I used to have faith. I learned not to trust faith.



She is the example of the True Christians who have decided that atheists, en masse, are the enemy. If she's your example of a typical Christian, then I think the hypothesis of the thread is confirmed.

This is not a "typical" Christian no more than you are a "typical" Atheist. She is 1 Christian who has changes her religion to fit the way she sees things not changed herself to fit how her religion sees things. If you want to know a real true Christian, become one and show US how. Other than that, study Jesus because ALL have sinned and fall short.

 

[JGG]

This is not a "typical" Christian no more than you are a "typical" Atheist.

Ah, touche.

She is 1 Christian who has changes her religion to fit the way she sees things not changed herself to fit how her religion sees things.

Isn't that the typical Christian?

If you want to know a real true Christian, become one and show US how. Other than that, study Jesus because ALL have sinned and fall short.

So how come we all get to sit here and judge that all of those guys I mentioned in the earlier part of the thread are not Real/True Christians?

 

[paul becke]

"Atheism, not Islam, is the enemy of Christianity."

Spot on!

 

[JGG]

"Atheism, not Islam, is the enemy of Christianity."

Spot on!

Oh, well that saves me a lot of trouble...

 

[rturner76]

So how come we all get to sit here and judge that all of those guys I mentioned in the earlier part of the thread are not Real/True Christians?

I came in a little late, I don't know exactly what they did. I do know however that to look at a typical Christian is to look at a lazy, biggot inappropriate content addict alchaholic or addict of some sort, wife beating racist, classist, good for nothing back biting stone age knuckle dragger. Basically your typical American.

Your typical American is a typical Christian and that you are correct is a terrible example of Christianity. The only good examples are people noted as Saints, people like Dr Martin Luther King Jr. is a nearly perfect example of a true Christian. He was beaten in the defense of what everybody knew deep down was right and he was eventually killed for it.

Don't get me wrong, there are good christian people doing good things every day but you would never know it because they don't call attention to themselves. They go through life loving and helping others with no thanks until they pass and nobody notices them but those that are close to them. so since you do not go to any church or make it a point to seek out these people, you won't find them, especially not in these forums. People in here like me and other christians, have something to prove. We have some need to show others something by engaging in these kinds of discussions. A real true Christian would not be online haveing a debate about Atheism, they would be out in the world helping someone get groceries, making coffee for bible study, babysitting for someone, giving a bunch of kids a ride somewhere. Christians like me are the ones with the time for this stuff. I wish I was like that but I hope to be someday. I pray for better understanding of my role here but I enjoy my little ego still so I come to places like this with the other christians who also enjoy their own egos. That's pretty typical too my friend

 

[norswede]

I understand the idea of loving those who have made you their enemy, but can Christians declare atheists and Muslims their enemy, and still love them? How does that work?

And really? Christians aren't my enemy? Why am I treated as the enemy?

How are you treated like the enemy?

 

[oi_antz]

Okay, why would that make me believe? I'm sorry, it just seems like a guilt trip. Why would got be upset if I don't believe?

Well you are a son of God, so if your life was lost to the flames of the lake of fire then I'm sure your heavenly father would be upset. I know I certainly would, this is why I am patient with you because what has happened to you is so unfortunate that it is a pain to my heart whenever you rebut.

God, presumably, knows exactly why I don't believe. He could convince me in an instant. He could just make me believe. He could demonstrate His presence. God opts not to.

How about considering why. He must have a good reason for it.

Really, how could God hate me simply because I'm skeptical

Its not that you are skeptical, remember the linear translation "not they shall station themselves ones boasting to in front of eyes of you you hate all of ones contriving of lawlessness". It is the proud man who God hates. The man who is proud to be unlawful.

(which, realistically, is a very reasonable position, that Christians take with every other religion). What if I had faith, but had faith in the wrong God? Would your God still hate me for that? If not, what's the difference?

No I don't think He would be upset if you learned from other theologies so long as you are obedient to your conscience, but remember that Jesus is the embodiment of God's son, so if you dismiss what He says then you're basically thumbing your nose at Him. It's not something that will be acceptable behavior in heaven.

Well, faith is a belief not based on evidence, or despite the evidence. I think a sketpic nature is going to steamroll over that. Remember, I used to believe in God. I used to have faith. I learned not to trust faith.

It doesn't appear to have benefited you. Honestly mate, I know you well enough to say you would love the joy that Jesus wants you to have.

To borrow from another poster, who borrowed from a church sign, which borrows from Martin Luther:

What is the point of putting up that sign?

Presumably in the Old Testament they spent a great deal of time among the Romans and Egyptians. In fact, it seems that the OT God resembles their gods. Animal sacrifices, and punishing entire towns (or the whole of the Earth) for not worshipping Him properly bears a certain resemblence to Zeus, for instance. I would then suggest that the authors of the NT read the OT. Just my thoughts.

Nothing wrong with thinking.

No no. No, no, no. So much no. Saying that "Those folks" were pushing her buttons does not cover it. Her sole response to me was a rant about how awful atheists were (even though she unintentionally agreed with me on the only arguable point I had made). I had only barely commented in the thread at all. She saw atheist, and immediately saw red. She is the example of the True Christians who have decided that atheists, en masse, are the enemy. If she's your example of a typical Christian, then I think the hypothesis of the thread is confirmed.

Yes I've PM'd her about her behavior and her attitude toward misbelievers. She said to me "I will think before posting in future".