Atheism, not Islam is the enemy of Christianity

[JGG]

There, what did I bother saying it for. I have to say JGG, your maturity puts a lot of Christians to shame. If only we were able to harness that maturity to help certain Christians behave more Christ-like then the world would definitely be a better place. Do you have any ideas how we can do that? A book is a good idea, maybe you Robert and I could get serious about that and put our heads together. Rather than presenting problems we should be presenting solutions.

Thanks oi, I appreciate it, I appreciate our discussions, and I appreciate your candor. Thank you.

What do you really think is an effective way to improve Christian attitudes toward atheists?

I think it's going to take two things, (1) a high-profile, Christian leader, or respected politician to really come out in our defense, on a big stage. (2) Probably some serious education. I would at least like to see people thinking more.

 

[JGG]

It makes a lot of sense why you are an Atheist my friend. I would be pretty upset with God myself and the only way to make peace with something like this and some other statements I've seen is to just cut the ties and say there can't be any rhyme or reason to this nonsense.

If I may say so, I was never upset with God. When I watched that idiot dance on his son's grave, I was mad at the idiot. When my sisters and grandfather (and really the rest of my family and church) couldn't accept my wife, I was mad at my sisters and my grandfather (and family and church). When my wife died of cancer, I was mad at cancer (still am).

In other words, as much as one would think that it was these events that directly caused me to lose faith, it wasn't. Indirectly, it was, but not directly. After my church abandoned me, I went looking for a new church, and eventually had to start looking for a new concept of God. It was a good three or four years of searching, learning about other faiths and god concepts. There were a lot that I liked, but none that I could ever really believe in.

How could this be part of a plan? It would be hard not to take it personal. It would seem to be a more intelligent conclusion to believe God doesn't exist than he did exist and could be so cruel.

Yeah, or maybe that's not what God is or does. Maybe trying to understand what God is, or wants, or does, corrupts our understanding of God because we are simply projecting our wants and needs on to It. Maybe God is so huge, so complex, and so indescribable, that by even trying to describe it, interpret it, or imagine it, we are unintentionally undermining that "thing." Maybe our attempts to explain what It is, completely sets back our potential to ever do so.

Or maybe not, I don't know. But then again, that's why I'm an agnostic atheist.

I pray God gives you a long life with your son

Many thanks! You as well.

 

[JGG]

Hi JGG,

Does the mission statement of Christian organisations, the likes of World Vision and Samaritan's purse qualify as proof of the love of Christ toward non-believers?

Yes, I suppose that does. Although, that's because these ones (or at least World Vision, I'm not entirely sure about Samaritan's Purse) claim not to be among those that feed children once they "accept Christ."

See if this video doesn't touch your heart:

OCC Montage 2011 - YouTube

I predict you will say that these organisations don't represent "modern Western Christianity" which is a fair statement. It is fair to say though that they do represent "modern Christianity", and "the spirit of Christ".

I would say that I don't think Modern Western Chrisitanity lives up to this. However, yes, it is a good example of what Bill Maher would call "being Christ-like, and not just Christian."

 

[Mess]

Blind post, but no human is the enemy of Christianity, now Christianity is the enemy of quite a few people, and yes those groups include both atheists and Muslims, but that does not okay or pardon making someone an enemy as a christian. The enemies for a christian are sin and Satan, and that should be it. That doesn't mean that some people that proclaim themselves christian don't see those groups as enemies, but I can't find any bases for that in scripture.

 

[timatter]

"Does the mission statement of Christian organisations, the likes of World Vision and Samaritan's purse qualify as proof of the love of Christ toward non-believers?" No, I'd say it is proof of Christian's or just people's love, or concern for the less fortunate. People want to help other people. Is "Muslim Charities" proof of Allah's love? "Muslim Charities Forum (MCF) is an umbrella organisation for UK based Muslim-led charities whose primary goal is to provide humanitarian aid and assistance to the poorest and most vulnerable people around the world."
"Do you try and convert the people you are working with..." The short answer is "Yes". They say they witness, but don't proselytise. According to the definition of the word, witnessing is proselytising.
I'm sure they do a lot of good taking care of peoples material needs. I'm sure a much greater percentage of your money actually goes to help people than giving it to a church. People give their 10% to their church. Most of it goes to salaries, building upkeep, etc. Only a small part goes to "missions". Of that, most goes to overhead too. Of the small portion that gets to the needy at the end of this line, how much is for things they need, food, medicine, etc, and how much is things the church thinks they need, Bibles, tracts, etc.
I heard a missionary to Madigascar speak in a Baptist church. Where he was stationed, people lived on $1.50 a day. They had a lot of children because most of them died before growing up. He didn't say anything about helping with these problems. He was there to tell them that on top of all of that, they were also going to go to hell after they die if they didn't accept Jesus. He was there to add to their problems. He wanted to convince them they had a problem that they never before realized they had, and then offer them the cure.
Another Baptist church, another missionary, this one from the Phillipines. (I can send you the podcast if you want) He said the Phillipines is 80% Catholic, 5% Muslim, .........and 5% Evangelical Christian. If you do the math, that means that 95% of Phillipino's are going to hell unless we do something about it. Wow. He just said all Catholics are going to hell. Whatever worldly good he is doing for these people, it is to get them to listen to the real reason he is there. He is there trying to convert Christians into Christians. I'd approve of Samaritan's Purse any day over these guys.
Another issue altogether is what the different Christian groups teach converts they have to do after they are "saved". You can say they are departing from "true Christianity" but there is no agreement on that either.

 

[Mess]

"Does the mission statement of Christian organisations, the likes of World Vision and Samaritan's purse qualify as proof of the love of Christ toward non-believers?" No, I'd say it is proof of Christian's or just people's love, or concern for the less fortunate. People want to help other people. Is "Muslim Charities" proof of Allah's love? "Muslim Charities Forum (MCF) is an umbrella organisation for UK based Muslim-led charities whose primary goal is to provide humanitarian aid and assistance to the poorest and most vulnerable people around the world."
"Do you try and convert the people you are working with..." The short answer is "Yes". They say they witness, but don't proselytise. According to the definition of the word, witnessing is proselytising.
I'm sure they do a lot of good taking care of peoples material needs. I'm sure a much greater percentage of your money actually goes to help people than giving it to a church. People give their 10% to their church. Most of it goes to salaries, building upkeep, etc. Only a small part goes to "missions". Of that, most goes to overhead too. Of the small portion that gets to the needy at the end of this line, how much is for things they need, food, medicine, etc, and how much is things the church thinks they need, Bibles, tracts, etc.
I heard a missionary to Madigascar speak in a Baptist church. Where he was stationed, people lived on $1.50 a day. They had a lot of children because most of them died before growing up. He didn't say anything about helping with these problems. He was there to tell them that on top of all of that, they were also going to go to hell after they die if they didn't accept Jesus. He was there to add to their problems. He wanted to convince them they had a problem that they never before realized they had, and then offer them the cure.
Another Baptist church, another missionary, this one from the Phillipines. (I can send you the podcast if you want) He said the Phillipines is 80% Catholic, 5% Muslim, .........and 5% Evangelical Christian. If you do the math, that means that 95% of Phillipino's are going to hell unless we do something about it. Wow. He just said all Catholics are going to hell. Whatever worldly good he is doing for these people, it is to get them to listen to the real reason he is there. He is there trying to convert Christians into Christians. I'd approve of Samaritan's Purse any day over these guys.
Another issue altogether is what the different Christian groups teach converts they have to do after they are "saved". You can say they are departing from "true Christianity" but there is no agreement on that either.

I can see where people like that are coming from tbh. I mean what good is it to solve problems in the temporary when they are doomed in the eternal sense? You are dead a lot longer than you are alive, that's a pretty big thing to ignore.

 

[timatter]

JGG- "If I may say so, I was never upset with God." My wife had cancer too and I never was mad at God. It was more like evidence things I was taught weren't true. She grew up in a very conservative church and always behaved. Never smoked, never drank, not overweight, no risk factors. She was what I would call close to God but she got breast cancer anyway. I never did say a prayer for her because I thought everybody else she knew was, and God wouldn't listen to me anyhow, I was the one in the middle of questioning things (Many other things before this).
It has been 4 1/2 years and it looks like the cancer is gone, thanks to Dr. Patel and a long line of Dr.s and researchers that have been working on medical progress, often fighting the church to do it. It does make me mad to read how much religion did hold back progress. I have heard we are 500-1500 years behind where we could be and that gets personal when you lose someone. If we knew 5 years ago what we know today my wife would have had a little less of her body cut off.
If I really don't believe there is a God, I can't get mad at him. I can get mad that people do questionable things because they believe in that God. I can take what they believe about that God or the Bible, but I don't, to point out contradictions. (If God is All knowing, powerful and good, then why is there suffering. This argument is known as Theodicy)

 

[timatter]

Mess- "I can see where people like that are coming from tbh. I mean what good is it to solve problems in the temporary when they are doomed in the eternal sense? You are dead a lot longer than you are alive, that's a pretty big thing to ignore. "
That makes perfect sense assuming the theology is correct. It also makes perfect sense to kill heretics to keep them from spreading their heresy, and getting other people sent to hell with them. (Galatians 5:9 "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.") This actually happened a lot, and for such offenses as not believing transubstantiation. (It complicates things when Catholics call all Protestants heretics, and at least some Protestants call Catholics heretics. Somebody is wrong) It also makes perfect sense not to just kill the heretic, but to burn him at a slow roast, or some other imaginitive form of torture to give him a chance to recant, thereby saving his soul. This was also done a lot.
Assuming the theology is correct, Christians shouldn't be wasting any time or money on watching TV, playing sports, hunting, fishing or anything else except an all out effort working to keep as many people as possible from going to hell. At the end of the movie "Shindler's list", Oscar Shindler was upset. He knew he could have done more to save more Jews. He held up his ring and said something like, "This ring......how many could I have saved by selling this ring."
I have to ask, if Christians really believe what their churches teach about hell, why do they oppose abortion? Most churches teach that innocent children go to heaven when they die. If they grow up, most of them end up going to hell. Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Abortion is a free ticket to heaven so why oppose it?
Back to the original post, "Atheism, not Islam is the enemy of Christianity". If the atheist (or agnostic) used to be a Christian, and studied about it for several years, and left Christianity because of it, he might want to get you to learn more too. Can learning more be bad? I'll take the cold, hard truth over a comforting falsehood.

 

[oi_antz]

Thanks oi, I appreciate it, I appreciate our discussions, and I appreciate your candor. Thank you.

Awww shucks, thanks Call me antz if you don't mind

I think it's going to take two things, (1) a high-profile, Christian leader, or respected politician to really come out in our defense, on a big stage. (2) Probably some serious education. I would at least like to see people thinking more.

These are things that we don't have in our control, but these are strings that Jesus can pull. So without getting too specific right now, best that we each put our hopes upon His capacity and will, and get to looking for what we each can do. Maybe by compiling a list of Christian's who have sufficient profile and integrity, and educating the people around us. As you're discovering that Christianity itself is not really against atheism, there are certain Christians that can accept you and love you as you are, even as though you were Christian at heart. You know, only one person has never submitted to sin, and He never looked down on sinners, He always forgave them and encouraged them to repent. How much more responsibility do we have to behave in the same way. He was forthright in telling sinners when they were wrong, but that is an act of love when done in the right manner. It's easy to lose sight of Jesus' love when you're assaulted with hate, so I just hope you can regain a bit of that which you lost. Time is a fantastic healer, so chin up and spread the good cheer.

 

[oi_antz]

Mess- "I can see where people like that are coming from tbh. I mean what good is it to solve problems in the temporary when they are doomed in the eternal sense? You are dead a lot longer than you are alive, that's a pretty big thing to ignore. "
That makes perfect sense assuming the theology is correct. It also makes perfect sense to kill heretics to keep them from spreading their heresy, and getting other people sent to hell with them. (Galatians 5:9 "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.") This actually happened a lot, and for such offenses as not believing transubstantiation. (It complicates things when Catholics call all Protestants heretics, and at least some Protestants call Catholics heretics. Somebody is wrong) It also makes perfect sense not to just kill the heretic, but to burn him at a slow roast, or some other imaginitive form of torture to give him a chance to recant, thereby saving his soul. This was also done a lot.
Assuming the theology is correct, Christians shouldn't be wasting any time or money on watching TV, playing sports, hunting, fishing or anything else except an all out effort working to keep as many people as possible from going to hell. At the end of the movie "Shindler's list", Oscar Shindler was upset. He knew he could have done more to save more Jews. He held up his ring and said something like, "This ring......how many could I have saved by selling this ring."
I have to ask, if Christians really believe what their churches teach about hell, why do they oppose abortion? Most churches teach that innocent children go to heaven when they die. If they grow up, most of them end up going to hell. Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Abortion is a free ticket to heaven so why oppose it?
Back to the original post, "Atheism, not Islam is the enemy of Christianity". If the atheist (or agnostic) used to be a Christian, and studied about it for several years, and left Christianity because of it, he might want to get you to learn more too. Can learning more be bad? I'll take the cold, hard truth over a comforting falsehood.

Hi timatter, the cold, hard truth from my point of view is that you have become confused about the true nature of Christianity. You've seen a lot of beliefs based on a gospel of hate instead of a gospel of love. The truth about who goes to heaven and hell is not something that any person on earth is qualified to judge. So any person who says "you are saved" or "you will go to hell" is way out of line. Only one man has been given that authority, it is Jesus.

Revelation 1:18
I am the living one. I died, but look—I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave.

Notice also that He is the one who sorts the wheat from chaff:

Matthew 3:12
He is ready to separate the chaff from the wheat with his winnowing fork. Then he will clean up the threshing area, gathering the wheat into his barn but burning the chaff with never-ending fire.”

And if you think that only members of this guy's baptist church will enter heaven, think again.

33 “Then a despised Samaritan came along, and when he saw the man, he felt compassion for him. 34 Going over to him, the Samaritan soothed his wounds with olive oil and wine and bandaged them. Then he put the man on his own donkey and took him to an inn, where he took care of him. 35 The next day he handed the innkeeper two silver coins,[e] telling him, ‘Take care of this man. If his bill runs higher than this, I’ll pay you the next time I’m here.’

36 “Now which of these three would you say was a neighbor to the man who was attacked by bandits?” Jesus asked.

37 The man replied, “The one who showed him mercy.”

Then Jesus said, “Yes, now go and do the same.”

If you want to know the criteria upon which Jesus will grant salvation, read these verses. This chapter (Matthew 25 - read it yourself) is where Jesus described to His disciples what will happen at the end of time when He comes to judge the world. He gives an illustration of two types of people: selfish and selfless. The true criteria for having your name in the book of life is not whether you performed the right rituals on time, but whether you have demonstrated Christ's love to others.

Matthew 25
40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,[f] you were doing it to me!’
[...]
45 “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

I hope you're getting the gist of it. Christianity transcends religion and dogma, it cuts right to the heart of the matter: that you must contribute good to the world instead of evil.

I would guess that your understanding of Christianity has not been imparted to you by the hand of God, and we know what happens when we depend on second hand accounts, we get Chinese whispers which in the case of Christianity results in misunderstandings so severe that people lose sight of God altogether. JGG has presented a lot of examples of that happening to members of various churches. Jesus even said this would happen:

True Disciples

21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

I hardly think that bombing abortion clinics is "doing the will of Jesus' Father in heaven" and I think your common sense would agree.

Be careful who you choose to learn from, don't be afraid to stand up for yourself and say "no, I understand Jesus better than you", because you have that right and if you become Christian it becomes even more your responsibility.

BTW, you're not meant to be posting in this forum because it is for the OP to discuss with Christians only, otherwise we get off track quickly and end up with a debate instead of a discussion. This forum is for non-Christians to get specific help to understand Christianity specifically from Christians. Feel free to start your own thread to address whatever problems you are facing but please respect us on this thread to concentrate on achieving that which JGG has set out to do.

This is how it is said in the Statement of purpose:

This forum is similiar to Exploring Christianity in the way that ONLY Christians will be allowed to reply. We ask that you respect this, if you wish to reply to someone you can do so by PM.

Thank you for contributing though, I do appreciate that you've got a helpful heart and I hope we will have a good discussion one day soon

 

[oi_antz]

Hi JGG, I have been watching this video:

Reflections And Warnings - An Interview With Aaron Russo {Full Film} - YouTube

A quote from 1:07:00 is rather interesting:

This is how bad the scamming is getting and we've got to wake up, we've got to say no, we've got to get angry and get in the face of the new world order. Again, the private offshore bankers own America, they own both parties but they get you in a rar rar Coke verses Pepsi Redskins verses Cowboys, you know fight, and you get in this little political fight as followers instead of looking past that to the actual global elite and what they're setting up.

Could you entertain the idea that the orange frogs are those who have followed what Jesus tells them, and the blue frogs are those who follow what their pastor has told them? So this quote made me ask the question - if the orange frogs learn from God and the blue frogs learn from man, who is the blue frog's true master? This verse has the answer:

Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

The law of God is very clear, it is printed in black and white in the bible. Any Christian who does not demonstrate the fruits of the Holy Spirit is walking a dangerous road. Remember what Jesus said "work hard to enter the narrow gate because wide is the road to destruction and many go that way". Remember Paul wept as he issued that warning in Philippians 3. These people are so eager to be esteemed by their peers that they sacrifice the very essence of Christianity. That is to stand up for the truth. And the truth is that our neighbor is not always a priest or a temple assistant, often our neighbor is a Samaritan.

The Parable of the Good Samaritan


25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’[h] and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed,[j] he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

 

[timatter]

 

[oi_antz]

@oi antz- "The law of God is very clear, it is printed in black and white in the bible." It's not very clear. Nobody can agree on what it is. That is why there are 30,000 denominations of Protestants, plus Catholics, Orthodox, and some others. You say you know the truth, but your neighbor says he does and you are wrong. You both have your verses from the Bible to prove yourselves right. The best explaination is that the Bible is not clear about what God wants from us.

You aren't meant to post here, you will get the thread locked. I have PM'd you to ask for examples of what you are struggling with. It seems to me pretty clear that "thou shalt not" means "thou shalt not" and that "love" means "love", and "we are not contentious" means "we are not contentious" (1 Corinthians 11:16).

 

[homeofmew]

Enemy is such a "bad" word. Not all Islams are Enemies.
The only Islams who are "bad" are the type that fly planes into buildings.

Us Christians Rather Deal with atheists who don't blow people up/ or kill people because of religious differences.

All of the world may not agree on a certain faith, or the old creation vs evolution thing. But that doesn't mean we have to kill each other because we disagree on these views.

In short Killing people because they have different views
= More bad then just have different views.

 

[HeathenWarrior]

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

 

[razeontherock]

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

There may be profound insight here wrt the OP. What's the word for "fear of the other?" Xenophobe. (And there's a guy in these parts, Xeno, who's downright scary!