Atheism, not Islam is the enemy of Christianity

rturner76

Domine non-sum dignus
Supporter
May 10, 2011
10,484
3,582
Twin Cities
✟725,021.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
Yet the OP returns to the phrase "even God hates atheists!" This is simply dishonest, and inexcusable.

I agree that this is dishonest in that an Atheist has no belief in God so a statement like "God hates Atheists" would pretty much collapse on itself in that if there is no God, how can he hate Atheists?
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,545
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yes Robert, that's one side of it. There's also the other side, that the OP has been shown that G-d's hatred is not against mankind as a whole, but against specific and very limited spiritual traits, and that atheism is not among them. (I don't see how that could be anything spiritual)

Also, inexcusable =/= unforgivable
 
Upvote 0

JGG

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2006
12,018
2,098
✟58,445.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Wow, wherever that thread was, it was a detestable example of Christian behavior. It would be similar to showing a KKK rally because they claim to represent Christian values also.

Right. So now, show me the other side. Show me the thread of Christians love-bombing atheists with no expectations of conversion.

I think the answer is you are correct about the "average" Christian especially what you will encounter online. People online have an agenda they are pushing and hide behind their key boards in fear of human contact. Many online people are socially akward and have resentment toward people in general because they can't relate to other human beings period. This is no excuse either. I will agree with you about what you encounter. You know better than I what you deal with online.

Yes, and I was punched in the face for being a pro-choice atheist. It's not just online, these people exist out there too. Hence, the problem with just hoping if I ignore them, they'll go away.

Anyway, I don't know exactly what I am saying but you're mostly right, it's just I think you are intelligent enough to know how to pick out the good ones and be as equals with those people. As Christians we are told to spread the Gospel which is to say God's word or belief in God and an Atheist is the antitheses of that calling. Though you don't actively seek to turn people from God, your presence in a Christian forum would seem to be seeking to "turn" Christians to "members of the Atheist religion" even though it's a non religion. A closed minded Christian would see you as a threat to their mission to make disciples. You would be making non-disciples in your "mission". I just personally don't think you have a mission like that so I don't feel threatened. Even if you did, my faith is strong enough to withstand an attack.

What would I convert them to? Honestly, I'm far more agnostic than I am atheist. I don't know what's true, how could I convert someone to that? I just want to know that people are actually thinking, rather than simply going through the motions.

I agree that this is dishonest in that an Atheist has no belief in God so a statement like "God hates Atheists" would pretty much collapse on itself in that if there is no God, how can he hate Atheists?

True, but as Oi and I have agreed that's what the Bible says. I think it's a tough task to claim that Christians must love atheists, when even God does not.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

rturner76

Domine non-sum dignus
Supporter
May 10, 2011
10,484
3,582
Twin Cities
✟725,021.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
The way I interpret the bible, in the New Testament, Jesus preaches only love. Love for your parents, friends, fellow disciples, and even your enemies. We are told. "If someone slaps you, turn the other cheek and let them slap that one. If someone takes your tunic, give him your cloak as well."

I don't have any idea where that becomes. "Throw a hay-maker at the first pro-choice atheist you see." It is clearly NOT an example of what a Christian is supposed to be doing. We've already said all this but I'm reiterating because you don't know a Christian by what they call themselves. It says in the bible "You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?" Meaning, if you run in to someone that wants to punch you in the face.....Not living by the Good Book. Treats you with respect, honesty, dare I say love? That is a real Christian.

Now I have seen thread after thread between you and oi_atnz about this subject and I think you covered it so I'll stop going down that road. Like him, I want to tell you for every 1000 Christian basket cases, there is 1 truly enlightened Christian maybe 100 to one I don't know but you get my point.

You will know them by their fruits.

I would like to tell you that my experience with you has not been typical of an atheist either. Every other one I have encountered on this site has been very arrogant, condescending, insulting, and belittling toward me. So I thank you for letting your guard down a little and showing your human side of yourself. so many come on and it seems they have no feelings, just observations and conclusions and most of the time, the conclusion is, "you're an idiot for believing in purple unicorns" or something to that effect. I hope in the computer world at least you can feel you have made one christian friend in me. I won't judge you especially if you don't judge me.
 
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I'm sure we agree that it being a sin doesn't prevent the attitude from being prevelant. People will just deny that the attitude exists, or excuse the attitude for some Holy reason.
Well these people are not behaving as good Christians. Notice that Christians do struggle with sin, and what you are observing in these Christians is not behavior in accordance with Jesus' teaching, but the teaching of someone who encourages sin! That is not Christian teaching and you ought to already know it. I'm suddenly wary of your motive, you seem to be supporting these attempts to hijack the Lord's name and run it through the mud. I always expected you to give Him more honor than that.
That doesn't make me feel any warmer.
I'm sorry about that, I don't know what I can do except to show you the light I know.
Where? I see where she apologized for "any misunderstandings," which is a step above saying "I'm sorry you're stupid."
Have you ever tried to swallow your own words?
For that matter, I don't expect her to apologize. I'm merely using her as a rather local example of the thread's thesis. She and I both clearly recognize that atheists are the enemies of Christians whether that's sinful or not. She demonstrates that she's aware of it, and I verbalize it. Frankly, I think if you're honest, you know it too. You yourself, in the past, have told me that I'm anti-Christian, and that we're all either with Christ or against Him. That clearly draws a line in the sand.
Well we have both grown a lot since we first met and I've come to know that you aren't against Christ, but you are against sinful behavior. So I still have not seen an example of you actually behaving in an anti-Christ manner. In fact I observe antichrist behavior in the examples you are presenting.
Yes, on the one hand I believe that's sort of true. But, do you think that with everything we've talked about and seen here, do you think Christianity has a respectable image? Should it have one?
It should, yes it definitely should, but do you not know what is prophesied about the beast?
Let me ask you this: Look at Modern Western Christianity: With its book deals, pastor worship, mega-churches, leaders with Lear Jets, scandals, and television programs. Look at the comments I've shared, and that other posters have willingly contributed. Look at those who use their faith as a shield for hate. Tell me that this is the same Christianity that Christ speaks of.
It's not and you just admitted that you know it. In fact you are starting to sound like a preacher of the good news!
In the end, no. Christianity doesn't look down on me because I'm condescending. If I'm condescending, it's because Christians look down on me. I read what Christians say about me. I could repeat it, but I think you know it too.
This thread is quickly turning into a war over the right to use Jesus' name.
I meant to mention this before: Some time ago, I went looking on Amazon, for a book written by a Christian that made some allusion to comraderie, equality, acceptance, general getting along, something which acknowledges that atheists are human too, and genuinely makes an attempt to understand and/or defend atheists themselves to believers. I actually found some written by atheists, but that didn't qualify. I found one that may have counted, but it is no longer in print. However, if I wanted to find a book about atheists and their "agenda," or the various number of reasons why "Atheism is Wrong" (a statement that doesn't seem well-thought out), well there are pages of books for that, and I've already read enough of them to know what the others say.
I'm not surprised.
I googled some phrases, and surfed the net thinking it might bring up some positive results: No luck. Negative results? You Betcha!

6ib5P.jpg
Good work. Wait until you read what Paul says about them below..
My point is the same as it was earlier: Christians are sending a message whether they intend to or not. Demonstrating love means more than just saying it, especially when you're required to say it, and demonstrating your hate is so ridiculously easy and common. I'm just explaining to you that the message has been received. Maybe not yours personally, but the message of your Brothers and Sisters in Christ. If you find that condescending, I'm sorry, but imagine how it looks to me.
You know what, the situation has become clearer to me too.
Not exactly. As you explained, she had some one else tell her to take that approach, right? In other words, you yourself claimed that she was taught to have that attitude. Is it not possible that others have been taught that?
Of course! Sin is only bad habit formed from bad decisions.
I know I was. When I was a kid atheist was a dirty word. Atheists were akin to satanists. I just knew atheists were bad. However, now I know that someone taught me that.
I didn't grow up in that sort of environment, and I have never been to the USA, I really am quite detached from the reality you have.
Technically, it's not a stereotype, it's more of a generalization. Like saying that birds fly. Some birds don't fly, but for the most part, they do. Rather than split hairs, let's just say birds fly.

In all honesty, I have barely scratched the surface in terms of literature, and evidence that demonstrates the contempt in which Christians (in general) hold atheists. But as was pointed out, it is incredibly difficult to show that Christians do anything more than talk about how much they love us. Possibly because that's all they really do.
These people are learning from humans instead of God. Don't you remember that verse I showed you in Isaiah 29:13? God declares that He is against rote faith.
If you feel that the generalization is unfair then I urge you to show me some practical example, or some practical reasoning that would genuinely challenge mine. Show me that message that subverts the one I'm getting.
Thank you for the opportunity. I choose this time to give you an example from Paul of Tarsus, a very fine Christian who I have never been able to fault. He wrote a letter to the church of Philippi, what he said here is particularly relevant to our discussion:

Philippians 3:12-21
I don't mean to say I am perfect. I haven't learned all I should even yet, but I keep working toward that day when I will finally be all that Christ saved me for and wants me to be.
No, dear brothers, I am still not all I should be but I am bringing all my energies to bear on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead, I strain to reach the end of the race and receive the prize for which God is calling us up to heaven because of what Christ Jesus did for us.
I hope all of you who are mature Christians will see eye-to-eye with me on these things, and if you disagree on some point, I believe that God will make it plain to you - if you fully obey the truth you have.
Dear brothers, pattern your lives after mine and notice who else lives up to my example. For I have told you often before and I say it again now with tears in my eyes, there are many who walk along the Christian road who are really enemies of the cross of Christ. Their future is eternal loss, for their god is their appetite: they are proud of what they should be ashamed of; and all they think about is this life here on earth.
But our homeland is heaven, where our savior the Lord Jesus Christ is; and we are looking forward to his return from there. When he comes back he will take these dying bodies of ours and change them into glorious bodies like his own, using the same mighty power that he will use to conquer all else everywhere.
There are a few things I want to draw your attention to in this passage. First that Paul says very concisely that we should be in agreement on matters because "we obey the truth we have". This shows that the truth is an observable entity that is common among those who mature in Christ.

Next I want you to recognize that the past is not important. It may be true that all we know is the past and that people sometimes find it hard to forgive, so the past is certainly able to haunt us. But the ability to look forward to the future is the fundamental basis of hope. This is something that you can't knock out of a Christian because we who have tasted the fruit of the tree of life know what eternal life in God's glorious presence will be like. It is better than anything carnal.

Next, what you might have noticed first, that there are some who walk the Christian road who are really enemies to the cross. These are the ones you seem to be observing as the majority of "modern Western Christianity". Notice Paul says they are proud of what they should be ashamed of. This is the primary message you have raised in this thread. You should be careful not to allow such a bad experience to tarnish your relationship with God. Notice that these people only think about earthly things. This is why that person hit you that time, if he had been concentrating on matters of Godliness then it would not have happened. Notice also that he says "but our homeland is heaven". This means that Paul is making a distinction between good Christians and bad Christians. Bad Christians have no future in heaven. It's a serious matter, I keep saying it is serious because it is literally the difference of everlasting life and death.

Finally I want you to read the last verse. Paul says that Jesus will "conquer all else everywhere". This means He gets to have the last word.

If you are willing to know the true nature of Christian love, I feel that this passage is just one of many you may stumble over when you open the bible to read in the light of Christ.
And remember, even God hates atheists!
That is still under debate for us, I believe He only hates those who are proud to be Godless. You do not demonstrate that attitude, you are merely hurt by Godless experiences and have been unable to accept God's love. It won't last forever, this is why I keep telling you to look for the light of God, because you are constantly seeing the darkness. This is what Ray is saying in a roundabout way too, that you are unable to recognize God's love even though it is staring you right in the face.
 
Upvote 0

rturner76

Domine non-sum dignus
Supporter
May 10, 2011
10,484
3,582
Twin Cities
✟725,021.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
I just thought of something as I read about your search for books by Christian writers about atheists and our ability to love them or as I was thinking what should be our ability to see the good in all people by their works. example:

My brother is a basic atheist. He was an atheist for sure but since he had kids I think he's more of an agnostic, we can't know for sure type of thing but he let's his wife expose them to church and "God" etc. He is one of the kindest people I knw. He would give you the shirt off his back and help you through anything. He has surprised me over and over again with the huge amounts of generosity he has shown to his family (being me also).

It says in the Bible "You will know them by their fruits" so I think there is a market for a book written by a Christian that shows where atheists are behaving "like Christ' without believing in the dogma. Just literally living it without speaking a word of it but a person like that could gain disciples just by their example.

Hmmm I'll have to noodle that one and fill a void in the market. It may not go over well with many Christians but I could see it being a tool to show people how Jesus lived and some of his philosophies just as a way to live your life.

That is what turned me to be Christian instead of Muslim. I looked at the way Jesus lived compared to Muhammad and saw Jesus was the more righteous in his day to day affairs. The love doctrine wins every time!
 
Upvote 0

GarrickBrewer

Prayer Warrior
Sep 12, 2010
251
11
Winchendon Massachusetts
✟15,465.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Listen I have only read some of this but I have to say a few things:
1) There are HORRIBLE people out there that claim themselves as christians. just because i paint myslef green, try to hop around, cathc flies with my toungue, and say "ribbit," doesnt mean that I am a frog. It is the person you are on the inside that matters, not what you say you are.
2) We were told by Jesus that because the world persecuted him, we would be persecuted too. Every time an athiests attacks me they prove the Bible right.
3) The reason many TRUE christians get upset about athiests is because they are the hardest group of people to save. It is easier to show someone of another faith that our God is the true God than it is to convince someone that there is a God. and because of that it makes it hard for us to fullfill the great comission that jesus gave us " gointo all the world and spread the gospel to every people of every nation"
4) The next time a christian argues with you ( logicly, not irrationaly and threataning to harm you) remember this, they are doing it because they love you and dont want to see you go to hell.
 
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It says in the Bible "You will know them by their fruits" so I think there is a market for a book written by a Christian that shows where atheists are behaving "like Christ' without believing in the dogma. Just literally living it without speaking a word of it but a person like that could gain disciples just by their example.

Hmmm I'll have to noodle that one and fill a void in the market.
Check out Self Publishing, Book Printing & eBook Publishing | Lulu.com, all you have to do is upload a pdf, upload the cover images front and back, and they will ship it straight from their website.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
We are told. "If someone slaps you, turn the other cheek and let them slap that one. If someone takes your tunic, give him your cloak as well."
Not wanting to say that Jesus is portrayed correctly in South Park, Robert please keep in mind that we only have two cheeks. What is to stop the person beating the crap out of you? Only his conscience, make sure you keep that in mind. When Jesus comes to turn His other cheek to the world it will certainly not be slapped. God bless :holy:
 
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Your religion is its own biggest enemy. How many of you don't follow 'thou shall not have pre-marital sex' (at least willingly)? How many of you think homosexual lifestyles are acceptable in your own personal beliefs? How many of you are addicted to inappropriate content? And those are just sexual sins.

The truth is a measure of time.
Hi Kostya, thanks for contributing here. I need to tell you that the forum has a rule against non-Christians posting on threads that don't belong to them. This thread has already been closed and cleaned up by a moderator because of someone who trolled it. I'm concentrating hard on helping JGG understand the Christian perspective of the issue, the rules of the website are carefully constructed to optimize the effectiveness of Christian ministry. Anyhow, it is not new to JGG but I will answer your comment by quoting to you something that Jesus said about this.
Matthew 6
22 “Your eye is a lamp that provides light for your body. When your eye is good, your whole body is filled with light. 23 But when your eye is bad, your whole body is filled with darkness. And if the light you think you have is actually darkness, how deep that darkness is!
I think the way this passage relates to your comment is especially relevant to the Phillipians 3 passage I quoted to JGG, where Paul speaks about 'many' who walk the Christian road but are actually enemies of the cross, and their future is everlasting destruction. So this seems to certainly support what you say, that there are many hypocrites that are actually immoral and that time will reveal this. It seems rather sad actually that the time of this revelation is already upon us, but it's nothing new really. The Pharisee's who crucified Jesus also claimed to be doing a good deed. Also notice how this topic relates to the passage of Matthew 7:13:
13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell[a] is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way.
No doubt many people think Christianity is some sort of social club, without really capturing the gravity of the matter: that Jesus wants to present us blameless before God by purifying us of sin. How can we be purified of sin if we are constantly looking for sin in those around us? We can't because the very measure we use to judge another is the same measure by which we will be judged ourselves. This is what Jesus said "why worry about the speck in your brother's eye when there is a plank in yours? First remove the plank from your own eye then you will be able to help your brother".

But you and I should be able to agree to something right now. Many people call themselves Christian before they are chosen by Jesus. They want to be Christian, they try to be Christian, but they fail in some way to be what Jesus requires them to be. So they aren't conquering the sin in their life, and they aren't working hard enough to enter the narrow gate.

You seem like an intelligent thinker. I would like to speak with you more, but with respect to JGG and the forum rules. Can you begin a thread of your own to address your concerns?
 
Upvote 0

rturner76

Domine non-sum dignus
Supporter
May 10, 2011
10,484
3,582
Twin Cities
✟725,021.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
Many people mistake a religion for the people that make up that religion. Jesus has instructed us to love everyone. Even our enemies. I would say 3/4 Christians are just fine with hating their enemies and people that are different. It's no different than most Homo Sapiens. Homo Sapiens tend to gather to ones like themselves in a way to create "us" and "them." It is not what Christ teaches, so the religion is not to blame, just human nature.

Very few if any actually live up to Christ's teachings

Mahatma Ghandi and he wasn't even a Christian but he liked Christ.
Martin Luther King was murdered for his non violence struggle. Very Christ like,

Most of us every day Christians, sorry we just don't measure up
 
Upvote 0

JGG

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2006
12,018
2,098
✟58,445.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
I would like to tell you that my experience with you has not been typical of an atheist either. Every other one I have encountered on this site has been very arrogant, condescending, insulting, and belittling toward me. So I thank you for letting your guard down a little and showing your human side of yourself. so many come on and it seems they have no feelings, just observations and conclusions and most of the time, the conclusion is, "you're an idiot for believing in purple unicorns" or something to that effect. I hope in the computer world at least you can feel you have made one christian friend in me. I won't judge you especially if you don't judge me.

Thanks RT, I appreciate that.
 
Upvote 0

JGG

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2006
12,018
2,098
✟58,445.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
I'm suddenly wary of your motive, you seem to be supporting these attempts to hijack the Lord's name and run it through the mud. I always expected you to give Him more honor than that.

Perhaps. Or perhaps I'm simply pointing out what others are doing and saying in the name of God, and am not particularly content to let it be swept under the rug.

It's not and you just admitted that you know it. In fact you are starting to sound like a preacher of the good news!

Well, let's not say things we can't take back. :D

This thread is quickly turning into a war over the right to use Jesus' name.

Perhaps. Or perhaps it's merely showing that there is a war over Jesus' name.

Thank you for the opportunity. I choose this time to give you an example from Paul of Tarsus, a very fine Christian who I have never been able to fault. He wrote a letter to the church of Philippi, what he said here is particularly relevant to our discussion:

Thanks, but I really meant something that shows that contemporary (Modern Western Christianity) has the same message.[/QUOTE]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JGG

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2006
12,018
2,098
✟58,445.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Listen I have only read some of this but I have to say a few things:
1) There are HORRIBLE people out there that claim themselves as christians. just because i paint myslef green, try to hop around, cathc flies with my toungue, and say "ribbit," doesnt mean that I am a frog. It is the person you are on the inside that matters, not what you say you are.

To make my point for me, let's imagine that this frog...
OrangeFrog290web.jpg


...believes that this frog...
17-mountains-fed-amazons-frog-diversity-tinc_540x350_1.jpg


...is not a True Frog, because all True Frogs are orange. The Blue Frog, who believes that he is a True Frog, would likely respond that only blue frogs are real frogs, and that the orange frog is not a True Frog. Both frogs know that they alone are True Frogs, and that the other is not. Either one may be right in their little frog world, both may be frogs, maybe neither is a frog in that world.

From where I sit, outside of that world, both are clearly frogs.

2) We were told by Jesus that because the world persecuted him, we would be persecuted too. Every time an athiests attacks me they prove the Bible right.

You have been physically attacked by atheists? I mean, you're aware that in our society Christians are far and away in the majority, right? It's a bold statement to claim persecution when you make up more than 80% of the population.

I'm sorry, ultimately I don't see how this is relevant. Are you suggesting that because "the world" (it seems to me it was either the Jews, the pharisees, or the Romans) persecuted Jesus 2000 years ago, the atheists of today are the enemy of Christianity? How did that get spun?

3) The reason many TRUE christians get upset about athiests is because they are the hardest group of people to save. It is easier to show someone of another faith that our God is the true God than it is to convince someone that there is a God. and because of that it makes it hard for us to fullfill the great comission that jesus gave us " gointo all the world and spread the gospel to every people of every nation"

Firstly, I cower at the idea that you get upset at groups of people based upon the relative ease at which they will submit to your religion. That is a troubling thought.

Secondly, what is the practical, objective difference between "Horrible Christians" who hate atheists, and TRUE Christians who merely express how upset they are with atheists?

4) The next time a christian argues with you ( logicly, not irrationaly and threataning to harm you) remember this, they are doing it because they love you and dont want to see you go to hell.

No, I don't buy that for a second, and I'll tell you why: At this point, the "they're trying to convert you because they love you..." simply sounds like a sales pitch. This is how someone once explained it to me:

3) The reason many TRUE christians get upset about athiests is because they [...] [make] it hard for us to fullfill the great comission that jesus gave us " gointo all the world and spread the gospel to every people of every nation"

See? According to this poster, atheists are merely a more difficult obstacle in the way of Christians fulfilling their mission for Jesus. It sort of makes it seem like love has nothing to do it and that converting atheists, or anyone for that matter, is just a means to an end.

Actually, it would make a smashing video game! Oh, wait...



I'm not a means to an end. I'm not an obstacle in your path to fulfilling your great commission (or maybe I am, but it's probably not advisable to view me that way). If True Christians are upset at me because I am more difficult to convert than a theist, then True Christians' motivations are misplaced from the start.

I don't want to pick on you here, it says that you're just 16 (and yet somehow a member of the Republican Party?), but you have expressed ideas about atheists that are somewhat in conflict. Perhaps you ought to think them out a bit more.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Perhaps. Or perhaps I'm simply pointing out what others are doing and saying in the name of God, and am not particularly content to let it be swept under the rug.
What do you think Jesus is talking about when He speaks of "hot", "cold" and "lukewarm"?
The Message to the Church in Laodicea

14 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning[e] of God’s new creation:
15 “I know all the things you do, that you are neither hot nor cold. I wish that you were one or the other! 16 But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth! 17 You say, ‘I am rich. I have everything I want. I don’t need a thing!’ And you don’t realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. 18 So I advise you to buy gold from me—gold that has been purified by fire. Then you will be rich. Also buy white garments from me so you will not be shamed by your nakedness, and ointment for your eyes so you will be able to see. 19 I correct and discipline everyone I love. So be diligent and turn from your indifference.
20 “Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends. 21 Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.
22 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.”
Do you not think He is speaking about the duality you are observing? Those who are spiritually rich, poor or content to be poor?
Well, let's not say things we can't take back. :D
It is the second time I have had to trust your judgment ;)
Perhaps. Or perhaps it's merely showing that there is a war over Jesus' name.
Using your orange vs blue frogs analogy below, I cannot agree that you don't recognize the difference between orange frogs and blue frogs. It is just as simple when observing Christianity. You can observe that there are spiritually rich Christians and spiritually poor Christians. Even you are capable of that, though you have in the past put up quite a fight to acknowledge it.
Thanks, but I really meant something that shows that contemporary (Modern Western Christianity) has the same message.
As long as you have an axe to grind you will only see what you are looking for. Go round different churches and listen to what they say, with every church and every pastor there is a different message. Just lurk and listen, you may just be surprised that you can hear a positive message if you happen to be in the right place at the time it is spoken. For instance just two weeks ago I went to a Catholic church and the preacher was talking about how there are 'no outsiders'. He used the story of the Samaritan woman who convinced Jesus to heal her daughter by reminding Him that dogs eat the crumbs under the table. With a sermon like that, there is clearly a positive and negative light to observe.

Until you take the initiative to hunt down the positive teachers, please don't complain to me about what the media tells you because it is a plain manipulator of the masses with a very clear antichrist agenda. And don't complain either about what some foolhardy brat thinks about atheist's because it is plain that they are not representing God to you. But do pay attention to those who you know are talking sensibly because it is in those words that you will find reliable truth. It is only when you learn from good teachers, that you can grow to your best potential. In fact Jesus said a student is no greater than his teacher, so to get the best teacher in the world you will literally need to ask Jesus. Until you do, you know what they say "don't believe everything that you read".
 
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hi JGG, further on the topic of Christianity being it's own enemy, take a read of the wisdom in this post:
This only scratches the surface of who and what Satan is..... I have much more.

Satan....Ruler of Darkness


[FONT=arial,courier new]I see Satan as the epitome of contradiction; Beautiful, scintillating, charismatic, genius, yet evil, corrupt, dishonorable, unscrupulous and arrogant.

An odd mixture, is it not? Yes, and ironically, it frames the very essence of reality in our world, for things in this dark place are not what they seem, just as the ruler of this cosmos is far from what he seems, and this statement works in two opposing directions. Let me explain.

To those who know Satan well, the angelic creation, he is awesome in countenance and accomplishment. His power was, at one time, second to none. Now there are several elect angels that exceed his prestige, but there was a time when he was the supreme angel, a cherub, "The Covering Angel", Guardian of the Throne of God. He is the most beautiful creature ever to come from the hand of God....and yet he has become the lowest of the low, the arch enemy of his Creator, and a creature bent upon destroying God and all He stands for. Swept away in a tidal wave of arrogance, Satan has initiated the first ever rebellion to unseat God as the Supreme Being, and we are very much a part of this conflagration.

He will take billions of angels to Gehenna with him for their foolish choice of serving him over their Sovereign, not to mention billions of homosapiens.

Then there is the human perception of Satan, and the contrast...what he really is.

To those who even believe he exists, he is the legendary devil with the red epidermis and forked tail, a grotesque gargoyle who commits only foul deeds in this kingdom. All manner of fiendish activities are attributed to him, and indeed, he is responsible for violence, evil and malfeasance, but this is far from the true nature of the devil.

Satan encourages this fantasy, for it beguiles human beings into believing he is the Super Demon, a miscalculation which renders them vulnerable, receptive to the true Satan and his base designs.

In a nutshell; Satan is in the business of imitating God, and he's very good at it, at least from the standpoint of the lowly creature, man. That is to say, most men, believer and unbeliever alike, are immersed in one Satanic scheme or another, yet completely unaware that they serve the devil.

Lets examine a few of Satan's more effective ploys;

Counterfeit Good:

What if I told you that the United Way and the environmentalist movement were evil to the core? Would this raise your hackles? Defy your view of these entities? Perhaps offend your tender feelings? You may be taken aback because you have supported one or both of these Satanic institutions in spirit if not in deed.

What am I driving at? What insane gesture am I making here? Well, before you succumb to rage or indignation, hear me out!

Even a stupid homosapien can grasp the principle of warfare, or determined opposition, that states the most effective means of defeating an enemy is to stage a brilliant diversion, get his attention focused on a bogus point, and then attack at the point of his most threatening strength.

This is one of Satan's tactics....get people thinking he is a dastard, while in reality he is sponsoring every do-gooder cause on the planet. Take guns away from citizens, stop every unhealthy practice, banish bigotry, save the trees, save the whales, stop abortion, ban capital punishment, ad nauseam.

These causes appear to be noble and above suspicion, do they not? Of course they do, they are designed by a mufti-faceted super genius to appear that way. But what really lies beneath the surface?

There is one answer....destruction of freedom!

Such is the brilliant strategy of the devil, to have you think he's a stinker, while he massages your good will with syrupy good intent. But all of these, and countless other ploys of the devil, lead to the usurpation and destruction of human freedom. It is this environment from God, liberty, which guarantees the evangelization of the lost, and the free worship of our God. As such, freedom is as essential to the plan of God as oxygen to our life here, or food. Thus, Satan attacks freedom in many diverse and ingenious ways.

Look for a moment at just one of the aforementioned causes; environmentalism.

It seems virtuous enough, and plain sense, that we protect the animals and natural resources on our planet, does it not? Of course it does, and so far as that concept goes, it IS a desirable objective. But Satan's intentions exceed moderation, and produce tyranny rather than the desired effect. Satan garnishes an issue with truth and humanitarianism to hide evil.

Ask any midwestern rancher, logger, miner, wildcatter, or a score of other Americans who have fallen prey to the juggernaut called "environmentalism". They have lost their jobs, had their private property seized, or the value of their property cut in half by impossible restrictions that become necessary when the milieu of an "endangered species" is near at hand.

Let's take another, a charitable organization. Here again, on the face of it, what could possibly be evil about an organization that helps others?

Well, it isn't necessarily their charitable function that is Satan's thrust, but the subtle politics of intimidation. Did you "give at the office" this year? Is the annual charity drive at your office like the one at mine? I'll bet a million bucks it is, because it is orchestrated by the same evil policy.

Does this sound familiar?

Your company designates some poor slob to oversee the money collecting campaign. They are usually highly motivated, or at best, of the opinion that is a worthy enough cause. So each department is assigned a quota. Email's or memoranda go throughout the business informing us of the drive and some rah-rah-rah nonsense about exceeding their donations from last year.

In effect, every person is put on the spot by the insinuation that if you don't give you are a low life, stingy bastard. Some departments have supervisors that also get involved, encourage department employees to shell out the dough, and make the issue of 100% compliance a big deal.

The fact is, people become accustomed to slavery by subtle and indirect means, being forced into a small compromises, which makes the objective of slavery more easily attained; the ultimate banishment of self-determination. Bit by bit, they submit to intimidation until they are cowed by tyranny, and it's just a matter of time until the powerful expand the regions of bondage to include higher taxes, mandatory this and that, surrendering our firearms, yada, yada, yada.

20 years ago if you had told me that there would be a day when we would have to wear seat belt, by law, and insurance would be mandatory for my car, I'd have laughed in your face. These, and many other issues, are rightly left to my own good judgement, not the elitist in political office who supposes that we are too damned stupid to make sound decisions for ourselves. That, or to pay off a political debt.

How much does car insurance cost you? How many times have you caused an accident? In all the years I've been driving I can't recall one single person of my acquaintance who was shafted by an uninsured driver. Oh sure, a few were hit by someone, but they paid to have the car repaired.

Think about it....all the thousands of dollars you have paid, we've all paid, to insure our cars, and most of us haven't been in a major accident all of our lives. Can you see how subtle tyranny is in this issue? If we aren't good boys and girls our insurance gets bumped. Run a red light, get a speeding ticket, and now use a cell phone....You see, once they have their foot in the door, it's too late to demand rights.

As for me, I'll take my chances! If I do smack someone, ok, I'll shell out the dough, but give me freedom to make that choice for myself.

Religion:

Shocker!

This is Satan's "ace trump". What better phalanx to attack God than in His own stronghold? While His worshippers are preoccupied with the illusion of propriety, sew the seeds of tyranny.

Perhaps the biggest Christian organization on earth is a many-faceted example;

Commit a sin, and you must utter it before a man, albeit within a private enclosure. He is a designated agent of God, and therefore privileged to hear your confession. Once you spill the beans, he prescribes various antidotes to your transgression, to make things right with God, and usually closes with an admonition to pitch some moolah into the plate on Sunday.

This procedure ignores the Royal Priesthood of every believer. We are all entitled to represent ourselves before God, and this is a very personal matter, and not anyone else's damned business.

This same outfit claims that they can ban you from their church, which results in condemning you to hell fire.

Oh really? How quaint! This is man's most arrogant and blasphemous contention, that a mere man, any man, has the power to send another human being to hell...for any reason! God has not extended this prerogative to any human being, period. The matter of salvation rests squarely upon the work of Christ, and we appropriate that saving grace by faith in Him, not obeying the inane demands of a black-robed holy Joe!

Christ says that "...I give to them eternal life and none shall pluck them out of my hand".

Where does it say, even indirectly, in this verse, that some bunch of pious morons have the fiat to deny us salvation? Seems clear enough to me that our Lord is clarifying the very claim made by this organization.

So many are the illustrations in this legalistic regime that I hardly know where to jump next; so I'll just rattle off a slew of offenses to God;

1. Praying to a human being, even if she is the mother of Christ's humanity.

2. You can get out of hell if someone lights candles for you.

3. There is a fat old man with the power to alter the Word of God, if he so desires.

4. Priests cannot marry, or women dedicated to God's service must be dowdy old maids all their lives.

5. You must be splashed with water to be saved.

I could go on, but I tire of so fertile a subject.

But there is more evidence that Satan is the High Prefect of religion....Who was instrumental in crucifying Christ? The most holy bunch of malpractors in Israel, the San Hedron.

In prophecy, the church of Rome will be the "scarlet harlot" that allies with The Beast, the Anti-Christ.

Christ called the pharisees "White washed tombstones, filled with dead men's bones". They looked great in their drab habits, and talked a good fight, but they were petty malingers who haunted the Lord every time He spoke in public, criticized His every act and word, yet most of them were going to hell.

Such are just two major areas of Satan's most effective penetration of the human race.

The most difficult understanding I had to grapple with as a "baby beliver" was the concept that the good of this world is part of Satan's realm, steeped in self-righteous motives, and aimed at diminishing God's influence among men. At best, Satan is out to disorient believers, for they are the forces that can send him to his dubious end. He fears and hates us, and uses his brilliance to intimidate, mislead, propagandize, and enslave us.

It is interesting that the basis for man's fall from grace was "The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". Did it ever occur to you that those two terms, "good and evil", are used as synonyms? Adam and Eve already knew good! So what is the name for this tree all about?

Simple enough....man in a state of sin would learn another form of "good", both human good and Satan's counterfeit good. Don't buy it? What was the first thing Adam and the woman did after they fell? The covered their nakedness with assorted foliage...an act of GOOD!

To be most effective in this objective, his primary and mostly effective tactic is to raise the banner of good and truth, and once the faithful draw near, infiltrate their thinking with legalism and bias.

Another very destructive strategy, and prevalent in our time, is Christian activism. This is the flagship of Satan's policy which evokes such emotional response from Christians that many are compelled to commit crime, even murder, in the name of their cause.

In the name of this bogus issue people burn legitimate businesses, parade around with signs and assault the privacy and freedom of individuals, threaten medical professionals, even murder. In their intransigent arrogance they usurp the power of God, supposing that He agrees with their evil campaign.

The destruction of freedom is his highest priority!

Those who commit acts of good, apart from the filling of The Holy Spirit, are either minions of Satan, or guilty of human good, which amounts to self-righteous, and will be the "wood, hay and stubble" that is burned at the Judgement Seat of Christ.

Our stay in this place is one of great peril so long as we remain divorced from God's Word, for humanity is no match for Lucifer, Son of the Morning, "The Covering Angel". On our best day even the most astute and intelligent among us is putty in Satan's hands. Only God can reveal his brilliant tactics to us, and thus protect us from his wiles.

Remember, this is cosmos diabolicus, the realm of Satan, and all that is in it is tainted by his policies, save one, the local church under the authority of a prepared Pastor-Teacher. God has "fenced off" this one safe zone for the teaching of His Word to the elect. It is possible to escape Satan's all encompassing influence, but only by means of the truth as it resides in our souls.


[/FONT]
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

rturner76

Domine non-sum dignus
Supporter
May 10, 2011
10,484
3,582
Twin Cities
✟725,021.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
I don't believe that rant for one second! It's the rantings of paranoia that look to outside places for Satan and that is the real deception. While we are searching for Satan in agencies and institutions, he is attacking your mind on the inside. We know that there is spiritual wickedness in high places but that is individual's greed. The deception is looking for Satan somewhere else when he is sitting right on your shoulders whispering in your ear. Telling you not to trust, telling you who is evil and who is not but we have the ability to look to the Holy Spirit and the instructions given to us in the New testament of the Bible. We can discern for ourselves where evil lies and I doubt it is in the United Way. there may be misguided people within the organization but the majority of people involved want to make a difference in people's lives and affect a positive change in the world period. All that right wing gun toting anti-environment, anti-catholic stuff is an agenda this Christian does not subscribe to. I believe in personal responsibility and affecting the people around you in a positive way. I don't believe we will advance the mission of Christ and the Disciples by tearing down institution that are by mission statement helpful to society. That is politics. BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE MY FRIENDS. LEAD BY EXAMPLE. BUILD UP DON'T TEAR DOWN. WHAT'S DONE IN DARKNESS WILL COME TO LIGHT!
 
Upvote 0