Atheism, not Islam is the enemy of Christianity

[JGG]

All "true" Christian beliefs are consistent, yes. Not to be confused with saying all "true Christian™" beliefs are constant. The constant is the uncanny ability for two Christians to agree. Though they might begin with different beliefs, by discussion through honesty they will come to understand each other and be in agreement. Therefore I submit that "God's truth" is a tangible constant.

Immature Christians who quarrel, hate and in all sorts of ways bring disrepute against the Lord's name are really demonstrating that they have not overcome the enemy. Their personal demons are still in control of their thoughts and instead of becoming that which Christ wants them to be, they make Christ become what they want Him to be.

This doesn't seem particularly amazing. Allow me to give a parallel:

All true hockey fans are Montreal Canadiens fans. Anyone who really loves hockey, loves the Canadiens. There are hockey fans of other NHL teams, but they are not "True Hockey Fans."

These people, who don't know as much about hockey as "True Hockey Fans," will argue that other teams are better, but that just shows how little they know about hockey.

However, it is uncanny that when two "True Hockey Fans" meet even if they come from different cities, they inevitably agree that the Canadiens are the greatest hockey team.

It's not an uncanny thing to consistently have "True Christians" agree, when you claim that those who disagree with you are not "True Christians." That's simply the No True Scotsman logical fallacy. It's not so amazing that Christians always agree on God's truth, because your definition of a Christian disqualifies anyone who doesn't.

Do you get my point? Do you understand why I don't see consistency? I don't get to disqualify those who disagree with you.

 

[JGG]

Very little, via the internet. I already demonstrated the cross-section of beliefs among my friends, mainly met after I became saved, which I'd hoped would go some way towards that.
I cannot show you youtube clips of myself, or printed documents in newspapers showing that I mean what I say.

That's fine, I wasn't asking about you specifically. How about another modern, mainstream Christian? Perhaps a sermon by a mainstream contemporary preacher that is about loving and respecting atheists, rather than about how to convert them, or how to "deal with (them)?" Maybe a web-site, or a book?

Honestly, I've been looking for a book by a contemporary (or even non-contemporary) Christian author that is actively trying to acknowledge atheists as equals and not as adversaries. I've found dozens of books that are anti-atheist (note: anti-atheist, not simply anti-atheism), and a bunch of "I don't hate atheists, but..." books. I have found books by atheists, agnostics, and skeptics that try show how atheists and theists/Christians can "co-exist," but I have had little luck finding the equivelant by a mainstream Christian (I assume Bishop Shelby Spong doesn't qualify, and that book seems to be out-of-print in any event).

I also cannot speak for other Christians; I can merely re-iterate what the Bible says, and how we are commanded and expected to treat other people, which includes Atheists.

I'm not saying that the Bible claims we are the enemy (although with some scripture twisting I have seen that argument made). I'm saying that practically speaking, even though it isn't scriptually mandated, we are seen as the enemy. We'll say "an unspoken enemy."

With the evidence I have provided so far, how does it seem to you Christians treat atheists? Do you think Christians on the whole see me as an equal? Am I Loved? Appreciated? Respected? Trusted? All the evidence I have provided says that this is not the case. So, when Christians say "we love atheists," what does that mean? How is that love defined? How is it manifested? How is it demonstrated? How is it recognized? If Christians do love atheists, how would we know that? How would that look?

If I may say so, if Christians didn't love atheists, it would look remarkably like the evidence I have provided: Distrusted, disrespected, and feared. A group for whom acknowledgement by one of our common leaders is an act which is met with outspoken disgust and offense. That really says a lot.

I grant you, it is far easier for me to demonstrate hatred, condemnation, and contempt than it is for you to demonstrate love. However, this is undoubtedly because it is far easier for anyone to hate others than it is to love. Which is why I think Christians treat the concept of love very lightly, as though it's easy, if not passive. Saying "Sure, I love atheists" may be an indication of actual love, but it seems more likely that it is simply empty rhetoric because that is what is expected. Actually demonstrating that love is a different thing altogether.

You may feel you are the enemy of Christians, but this is far removed from being the enemy of Christianity. I believe there is a fundamental flaw in your perceptions there, which should be investigated.

Well, I have actually been told that "atheism, not Islam is the enemy of Christianity" (it's where the thread title comes from). I admit, my perceptions actually did stem from that revelation. It's not simply what I feel, it is literally what I have been told, with a great deal of support from other Christians. Right now, it's sort of your argument vs. theirs.

If you think of it in that way, you will see that one once in this thread have you proffered any evidence that you are (or atheists are) the enemy of Christianity.

I'm not sure I understand this sentence. I would say that if atheists are not the enemies of Christianity, Christians generally treat us, and view us as though we are.

 

[rturner76]

There is a difference betrwwe an Athiest and an Antithiest. I think Christians AND Athiests get the two confused. An average Athiest who just lives their live and treats others the way they want to be treated in my opinion is NOT an enemy of Christians or Christianity though many many Christians have taken them up as enemies. I personally don't so I can only speak for myself. My brother for example is a basic Athiest. There is nothing in his reasoning that tells him he needs to believe in a God or worship any God, however he can appreciate others need for God or religon in their lives and respects their choice to worship, he just doesn't understand it for himself. He is an excellent father and would give you the shirt off his back. How could I see a person like this as my enemy?

Then there are people who see an average Christian as a religous zealot who is bent on murder in the name of God and want to save the masses from this mass hysteria called religon. They crusade on websites like this and debate Christians and hold rallys for Athiest causes. This is what I would call an Antitheist. Their agenda is to oppose the spread of Christianity as well as all other religons that worship a diety. I would say they are the enemy od Christianity but maybe not the individual Christian unless they resort to violence. Their mission is to stop the spread of Christianity, while a Christian's mission is to spread Christianity. That fundamental difference seems to make the groups enemys by default.

So the question is up to the individual. Am I capable of living my own life and blessing all those I come in contact with as a Christian? Am I capable of living my own life and respecting all those I come in contact with as an Athiest? If the answer is yes to those two questions then NO we are not enemies. If one or the other feels the need to control, combat, debate down, squash, change, or anything else devisive to the other then you my friend have made YOURSELF the enemy. Weather Athiest or Christian.

Having said that, I must admit, there are far more Christians who see an every day Atheist as an enemy. So called Christians are full of judgement and dowright rage and anyone who does not conform to their brand of Christianity. Atheists, Liberals, Gays, Women, Mixed races, Catholics, Prodestants, Jews, unwed mothers, women who wear short skirts, men with long hair, tatoos, piercings, whatever else people have found to be "Unchristian" in their particular brand of Christianity. It would make Jesus spit. If you are a heaven and hell Bible thumper....Who makes it to Heaven???

A Christian Nazi who killed 5 million people, or An Atheist who gave his life for his friends? Hmmmm Who lived the Gospel?

I don't know if this post makes sense but I HATE judgement and Christians dish it out better than anybody, and we ahould be giving it out LESS than anybody!

 

[razeontherock]

What our OP needs to recognize is the difference between mindsets that are certainly anti-Christian, and people. The former can certainly be the enemy of Christ, while the latter never can be, in this day and age.

 

[JGG]

There is a difference betrwwe an Athiest and an Antithiest. I think Christians AND Athiests get the two confused. An average Athiest who just lives their live and treats others the way they want to be treated in my opinion is NOT an enemy of Christians or Christianity though many many Christians have taken them up as enemies. I personally don't so I can only speak for myself. My brother for example is a basic Athiest. There is nothing in his reasoning that tells him he needs to believe in a God or worship any God, however he can appreciate others need for God or religon in their lives and respects their choice to worship, he just doesn't understand it for himself. He is an excellent father and would give you the shirt off his back. How could I see a person like this as my enemy?

Then there are people who see an average Christian as a religous zealot who is bent on murder in the name of God and want to save the masses from this mass hysteria called religon. They crusade on websites like this and debate Christians and hold rallys for Athiest causes. This is what I would call an Antitheist. Their agenda is to oppose the spread of Christianity as well as all other religons that worship a diety. I would say they are the enemy od Christianity but maybe not the individual Christian unless they resort to violence. Their mission is to stop the spread of Christianity, while a Christian's mission is to spread Christianity. That fundamental difference seems to make the groups enemys by default.

So the question is up to the individual. Am I capable of living my own life and blessing all those I come in contact with as a Christian? Am I capable of living my own life and respecting all those I come in contact with as an Athiest? If the answer is yes to those two questions then NO we are not enemies. If one or the other feels the need to control, combat, debate down, squash, change, or anything else devisive to the other then you my friend have made YOURSELF the enemy. Weather Athiest or Christian.

Having said that, I must admit, there are far more Christians who see an every day Atheist as an enemy. So called Christians are full of judgement and dowright rage and anyone who does not conform to their brand of Christianity. Atheists, Liberals, Gays, Women, Mixed races, Catholics, Prodestants, Jews, unwed mothers, women who wear short skirts, men with long hair, tatoos, piercings, whatever else people have found to be "Unchristian" in their particular brand of Christianity. It would make Jesus spit. If you are a heaven and hell Bible thumper....Who makes it to Heaven???

A Christian Nazi who killed 5 million people, or An Atheist who gave his life for his friends? Hmmmm Who lived the Gospel?

I don't know if this post makes sense but I HATE judgement and Christians dish it out better than anybody, and we ahould be giving it out LESS than anybody!

While I appreciate what you're going for here, as popular definitions go, an atheist is simply someone who lacks belief in God. An antitheist is someone who actively believes there is no God. When you refer to an anti-theist above, it seems you are actually referring to what is popularly defined as an evangelical atheist.

 

[oi_antz]

This doesn't seem particularly amazing. Allow me to give a parallel:

All true hockey fans are Montreal Canadiens fans. Anyone who really loves hockey, loves the Canadiens. There are hockey fans of other NHL teams, but they are not "True Hockey Fans."

These people, who don't know as much about hockey as "True Hockey Fans," will argue that other teams are better, but that just shows how little they know about hockey.

However, it is uncanny that when two "True Hockey Fans" meet even if they come from different cities, they inevitably agree that the Canadiens are the greatest hockey team.

It's not an uncanny thing to consistently have "True Christians" agree, when you claim that those who disagree with you are not "True Christians." That's simply the No True Scotsman logical fallacy. It's not so amazing that Christians always agree on God's truth, because your definition of a Christian disqualifies anyone who doesn't.

Do you get my point? Do you understand why I don't see consistency?

I do not get your point, I am not a sportsman. Please speak not in parables that I can't understand, but rather in truth. Please use plain language to make your point.

I am sure you can see that some Christians love to sin therefore they are not behaving as Christ behaves. I am sure you can see that some Christians love to do what is good, therefore they are trying to behave as Christ would behave. I am not convinced that you cannot see consistency among those of us who try to do good.

I challenge you: give me one example where you have reason to believe I disagree with another Christian and we have not been able to resolve it and subsequently come to agree.

The fact that you see division does not nullify the consistency that should be absolutely clear and plain as day: Jesus is Lord, anyone who argues for Jesus will agree that He is Lord and He has final authority on any matter of dispute.

I don't get to disqualify those who disagree with you.

Wrong. You don't want to disqualify those who disagree with me. To do so would mean that you accept that I am correct, and only you know what consequences that would bring. Suddenly you would be forced to acknowledge that Christianity is not an entity that you can blame for the evil, and it is not something you can be at war with.

I put my wager on the table with you. I bet it is you who needs Christianity to be "them" so you can feel proud to be "us". What do you think about that?

 

[oi_antz]

Having said that, I must admit, there are far more Christians who see an every day Atheist as an enemy. So called Christians are full of judgement and dowright rage and anyone who does not conform to their brand of Christianity. Atheists, Liberals, Gays, Women, Mixed races, Catholics, Prodestants, Jews, unwed mothers, women who wear short skirts, men with long hair, tatoos, piercings, whatever else people have found to be "Unchristian" in their particular brand of Christianity. It would make Jesus spit. If you are a heaven and hell Bible thumper....Who makes it to Heaven???

You know Jesus well. I also know what it feels like to spit in that manner

A Christian Nazi who killed 5 million people, or An Atheist who gave his life for his friends? Hmmmm Who lived the Gospel?

JGG, this is an important point to address. What makes someone think that the "Christian Nazi" is following Christ better than the atheist who gave his life for his friends? I would like you to consider this in context of Matthew 25 and remember the contrasting passage Matthew 7:21 I have shown you twice, that not everyone who claims to be Christian will be saved.

 

[JGG]

I do not get your point, I am not a sportsman. Please speak not in parables that I can't understand, but rather in truth. Please use plain language to make your point.

I am sure you can see that some Christians love to sin therefore they are not behaving as Christ behaves. I am sure you can see that some Christians love to do what is good, therefore they are trying to behave as Christ would behave. I am not convinced that you cannot see consistency among those of us who try to do good.

Sure, but I do not attribute it to trying to behave like Christ. I attribute it to good people doing good. Just like there are good Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Scientologists, and so on and so forth.

I challenge you: give me one example where you have reason to believe I disagree with another Christian and we have not been able to resolve it and subsequently come to agree.

The guy who said that atheists and Muslims are the enemy of Christianity?

The fact that you see division does not nullify the consistency that should be absolutely clear and plain as day: Jesus is Lord, anyone who argues for Jesus will agree that He is Lord and He has final authority on any matter of dispute.

Yeah, but apparently, God hates "homosexuals." If you disagree with that, then I see inconsistency.

Wrong. You don't want to disqualify those who disagree with me. To do so would mean that you accept that I am correct, and only you know what consequences that would bring.

I have a hard time expelling doubt, and believing your beliefs without reason, yes that's true. I have a hard time just deciding that you are right, and therefore those who disagree with you are wrong...just because you say so. Unless of course you can convince me.

Suddenly you would be forced to acknowledge that Christianity is not an entity that you can blame for the evil, and it is not something you can be at war with.

I don't blame Christianity for it. I blame the situation Christianity is in. If it wasn't Christianity it would be some other religion or group. And in fact, often it is.

I put my wager on the table with you. I bet it is you who needs Christianity to be "them" so you can feel proud to be "us". What do you think about that?

That's a fair point. However, I don't feel like someone who is part of an "us." I'm on my own team, and I was pretty content with that. It was someone else who defined me as the enemy. My point is simply that I wasn't the one who made the division. I'm the one who didn't disqualify anyone.

 

[JGG]

JGG, this is an important point to address. What makes someone think that the "Christian Nazi" is following Christ better than the atheist who gave his life for his friends? I would like you to consider this in context of Matthew 25 and remember the contrasting passage Matthew 7:21 I have shown you twice, that not everyone who claims to be Christian will be saved.

That's not the point. From my perspective, being "saved" isn't what I'm getting at. I don't actually believe people are "saved." Whether they're good people or bad people doesn't actually change anything.

Christians in general have sent a message about how they regard atheists. I understand you're trying to counter that, but the reality is: your message hasn't exactly gotten beyond the "talk" phase.

 

[razeontherock]

Sure, but I do not attribute it to trying to behave like Christ. I attribute it to good people doing good.

Since the context was Christians, they are doing it to behave like Christ. Seems you might need to consider that?

The guy who said that atheists and Muslims are the enemy of Christianity?

The context was 2 believers who couldn't be reconciled on a specific issue. Thank you for picking such an easy one! the bible says we wrestle not against flesh and blood. That means atheists and muslims aren't our enemies.
They may embrace ideologies that are, but the people themselves are not. A believer who would see this and still disagree, is being belligerent.

Yeah, but apparently, God hates "homosexuals." If you disagree with that, then I see inconsistency.

No you don't, you just don't understand that Jesus loves sinners. How has that part of the Gospel eluded you? And why the quotation marks?

 

[oi_antz]

Sure, but I do not attribute it to trying to behave like Christ. I attribute it to good people doing good. Just like there are good Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Scientologists, and so on and so forth.

And what makes you think that the spirit these people worship is not Christ with different packaging? If you can see consistency among those who do good, why do you not see that consistency as being the spirit of Christ Himself?

The guy who said that atheists and Muslims are the enemy of Christianity?

Can you please give me the link to that discussion, I will put my 2 cents in and see why we can't agree.

Yeah, but apparently, God hates "homosexuals." If you disagree with that, then I see inconsistency.

Really? Does the bible state that God hates homosexuals? I know that homosexuality is detestable, but that is referring to the act, not the person. Exactly who gave you that information about God?

I have a hard time expelling doubt, and believing your beliefs without reason, yes that's true. I have a hard time just deciding that you are right, and therefore those who disagree with you are wrong...just because you say so. Unless of course you can convince me.

No I cannot convince you, that would require me to be deceptive. There will always be the opportunity not to believe. Otherwise it wouldn't be fair would it?

I don't blame Christianity for it. I blame the situation Christianity is in. If it wasn't Christianity it would be some other religion or group. And in fact, often it is.

Well I'm not sure you can blame Christianity for the situation it is in, I think you can probably blame Jesus' opponent for that.

That's a fair point. However, I don't feel like someone who is part of an "us." I'm on my own team, and I was pretty content with that. It was someone else who defined me as the enemy. My point is simply that I wasn't the one who made the division. I'm the one who didn't disqualify anyone.

Like I said, if you give me the link to that discussion I'll roll my sleeves up and see why we can't all agree.

 

[oi_antz]

That's not the point. From my perspective, being "saved" isn't what I'm getting at. I don't actually believe people are "saved." Whether they're good people or bad people doesn't actually change anything.

Christians in general have sent a message about how they regard atheists. I understand you're trying to counter that, but the reality is: your message hasn't exactly gotten beyond the "talk" phase.

I think you are being dishonest by trying to dodge this. At all costs, it seems, you don't want to admit that Jesus and His followers are good and they do love those who are against them. But then you go further and say that you see no distinction between those who are following Jesus and those who aren't. If I didn't know you better I would be ignoring you because this is how trolls behave. They don't want to acknowledge any matter of fact.

 

[JGG]

And what makes you think that the spirit these people worship is not Christ with different packaging? If you can see consistency among those who do good, why do you not see that consistency as being the spirit of Christ Himself?

It might be, but people in other religions attribute it to other sources. The reason I question it is while some invoke Jesus' name when they do good, others invoke Jesus when they are spouting hate.

Can you please give me the link to that discussion, I will put my 2 cents in and see why we can't agree.

Oh, it was locked long ago. Some pesky atheist started posting there, and all hades broke out.

Really? Does the bible state that God hates homosexuals? I know that homosexuality is detestable, but that is referring to the act, not the person. Exactly who gave you that information about God?

Fred Phelps, and the Westboro Baptist Church, Reformists, Christian Identity Ministries, the Klan, and a few posters on here. As luck would have it, they'll also tell you that God hates atheists too!

No I cannot convince you, that would require me to be deceptive. There will always be the opportunity not to believe. Otherwise it wouldn't be fair would it?

I think that would be incredibly fair. What seems unfair to me is making things ambiguous, and then punishing me for not believing in what I can't understand, or even see clearly.

Well I'm not sure you can blame Christianity for the situation it is in, I think you can probably blame Jesus' opponent for that.

Well, I wouldn't do that either.

I think you are being dishonest by trying to dodge this. At all costs, it seems, you don't want to admit that Jesus and His followers are good and they do love those who are against them.

Some are. But some are really not. Some Muslims are good people and love those who are against them. Some are really not. Some atheists are good people and love those who are against them. Some are really not. I can't say that good people are those that follow Jesus, that doesn't seem to be necessarily true. I can't say that those who follow Jesus are good people, that also doesn't seem necessarily true.

I'm not going to tell you that all atheists are always good people, as that is clearly untrue. But I'm also not going to tell you that the really bad ones aren't really atheists, aren't atheist enough, are atheist-in-name-only, or aren't True Atheists!

But then you go further and say that you see no distinction between those who are following Jesus and those who aren't. If I didn't know you better I would be ignoring you because this is how trolls behave. They don't want to acknowledge any matter of fact.

It's not exactly a clear fact. Those who you claim are not following Jesus will claim that they are, and that you're not. Its your faith vs. theirs. So, convince me to believe you, and not them.

 

[razeontherock]

Some valid points here:

Some are. But some are really not. Some Muslims are good people and love those who are against them. Some are really not. Some atheists are good people and love those who are against them. Some are really not. I can't say that good people are those that follow Jesus, that doesn't seem to be necessarily true. I can't say that those who follow Jesus are good people, that also doesn't seem necessarily true.

I'm not going to tell you that all atheists are always good people, as that is clearly untrue. But I'm also not going to tell you that the really bad ones aren't really atheists, aren't atheist enough, are atheist-in-name-only, or aren't True Atheists!

Surely you can see that your second paragraph is really not a valid comparison? I also need to point out the Gospel is not "be a good person and earn Salvation."

I think that would be incredibly fair. What seems unfair to me is making things ambiguous, and then punishing me for not believing in what I can't understand, or even see clearly.

This is not at all the Gospel I see. It does serve you well as a template for "making your peace with G-d" though ...

convince me to believe you, and not them.

the Gospel is not following Antz, or me, or even St Paul, except as Paul (or any of us) followed Jesus.

 

[oi_antz]

It might be, but people in other religions attribute it to other sources. The reason I question it is while some invoke Jesus' name when they do good, others invoke Jesus when they are spouting hate.

Oh, it was locked long ago. Some pesky atheist started posting there, and all hades broke out.

Fred Phelps, and the Westboro Baptist Church, Reformists, Christian Identity Ministries, the Klan, and a few posters on here. As luck would have it, they'll also tell you that God hates atheists too!

Why do you believe what these people say without considering first whether what they say is supported by scripture? Why do you consider these people's authority to match that of early Christians? This is one example of why your attitude toward the bible has caused you to become blind to the truth. None of us 2,000 years later can understand the reality of Jesus and Jesus' time better than those who lived to see it.

I think that would be incredibly fair. What seems unfair to me is making things ambiguous, and then punishing me for not believing in what I can't understand, or even see clearly.

Faith has to be a free choice otherwise it wouldn't be sincere. I'm not sure whether you've been told before that in this life you can choose to worship God or any of His enemies. That has to be a free choice otherwise it wouldn't be a free choice.

Well, I wouldn't do that either.

Would you blame the individuals who worship the enemy? (By saying "enemy" I am talking about the desire to do evil).

Some are. But some are really not. Some Muslims are good people and love those who are against them. Some are really not. Some atheists are good people and love those who are against them. Some are really not. I can't say that good people are those that follow Jesus, that doesn't seem to be necessarily true. I can't say that those who follow Jesus are good people, that also doesn't seem necessarily true.

There is only one authentic Jesus Christ, but there are a lot of frauds. It would do well for you to accept that.

I'm not going to tell you that all atheists are always good people, as that is clearly untrue. But I'm also not going to tell you that the really bad ones aren't really atheists, aren't atheist enough, are atheist-in-name-only, or aren't True Atheists!

It's not exactly a clear fact. Those who you claim are not following Jesus will claim that they are, and that you're not. Its your faith vs. theirs. So, convince me to believe you, and not them.

Ok, that is easy. This verse is the one that you can use to identify those who have become strong in the Lord and those who are strong in their sins:

Galatians 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

I think if you are to be honest you should see a clear division between those of us who consciously apply biblical principles to our life, and those who don't.

I want to ask you a question: You mentioned various factions of Christianity in this post, how exactly would you describe me? Would you say I am liberal, conservative, fundamentalist, catholic? I'm curious to know whether your opinion of me goes beyond simply "Christian".

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

Thread cleaned up and reopened.
Please remember that only Christians and the OP may post in this thread.
Thanks
​

 

[JGG]

Why do you believe what these people say without considering first whether what they say is supported by scripture? Why do you consider these people's authority to match that of early Christians?

Let's start with God hates atheists, from a Reconstructionist webpage:

Psalm 53:1 - The fool hath said in his heart, "There is no God." Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

And what does God think of fools and those who do iniquity?

Psalm 5:5 - The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

God's hatred of atheists certainly seems supported by scripture. I could go into other groups, but this seems the most pertinent.

This is one example of why your attitude toward the bible has caused you to become blind to the truth. None of us 2,000 years later can understand the reality of Jesus and Jesus' time better than those who lived to see it.

My attitude toward the bible is that it isn't true and authoritative. I see no reason to believe that it is. I have a really hard time believing it to be a representation of reality. Whether it accurately represents Jesus is sort of a moot point.

Faith has to be a free choice otherwise it wouldn't be sincere. I'm not sure whether you've been told before that in this life you can choose to worship God or any of His enemies. That has to be a free choice otherwise it wouldn't be a free choice.

A proper choice requires adequate information, otherwise it's just arbitrary and meaningless. I do not have anything approaching adequate information.

Would you blame the individuals who worship the enemy? (By saying "enemy" I am talking about the desire to do evil).

I really don't think anyone actually has the desire to do evil, so no.

There is only one authentic Jesus Christ, but there are a lot of frauds. It would do well for you to accept that.

I think all Christians are worshipping a very flawed concept of Christ, so who's following the authentic Christ and who's following the frauds doesn't really enter into it.

Ok, that is easy. This verse is the one that you can use to identify those who have become strong in the Lord and those who are strong in their sins:

Galatians 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

I think if you are to be honest you should see a clear division between those of us who consciously apply biblical principles to our life, and those who don't.

No, I actually don't. You use scripture to make your point, but so do they. I like yours better than theirs, that's to be sure. However, just because yours is a little kinder doesn't mean that your position is any more biblical, or theirs any less so. So, specifically, how are "they" not biblical, and how would you show that you are perfectly biblical?

I want to ask you a question: You mentioned various factions of Christianity in this post, how exactly would you describe me? Would you say I am liberal, conservative, fundamentalist, catholic? I'm curious to know whether your opinion of me goes beyond simply "Christian".

I haven't bothered to categorize, it's not my place. You define yourself the way you will, it's not up to me.

 

[oi_antz]

Let's start with God hates atheists, from a Reconstructionist webpage:

Psalm 53:1 - The fool hath said in his heart, "There is no God." Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

And what does God think of fools and those who do iniquity?

Psalm 5:5 - The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

God's hatred of atheists certainly seems supported by scripture. I could go into other groups, but this seems the most pertinent.

And do you think this is the gospel of Jesus Christ? I can confirm that what is said is true, but like so many false teachers, they hardly bear good news. I think we can benefit from the Hebrew interlinear translation:

Psalm 53:1
he says decadent one in heart of him there is no Elohim they are corrupt and they are abhorrent iniquity there is no one doing of good.

Psalm 5:5
not they shall station themselves ones boasting to in front of eyes of you you hate all of ones contriving of lawlessness.

Notice the words "stand in thy sight" and "station themselves in front of eyes of you". This means that God is a fearsome presence for those who have not made peace with Him. Notice one other thing here is that "God hates all workers of iniquity", "you hate all of ones contriving of lawlessness", "there is none that doeth good". How many atheist's have you met that haven't argued about God's definition of "good"? I have not met one. Not a single atheist in all my time observing them, has said God's good is good. That is an incredible statistic. Is it making sense for you yet? These verses are describing how the conscience convicts us when we come into God's presence.

I said the conscience convicts "us" and not "you". So why do you think a Christian can feel comfortable reading scriptures in God's presence while an atheist doesn't? Only because we are trusting Jesus to forgive us of our sin. That's the only thing separating an atheist from a Christian. The atheist can't stand in the sight of God, and a Christian can only stand in the sight of God because Jesus has presented him perfect and blameless (Hebrews 10:14 For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy).

My attitude toward the bible is that it isn't true and authoritative. I see no reason to believe that it is. I have a really hard time believing it to be a representation of reality. Whether it accurately represents Jesus is sort of a moot point.

I just have to wonder why you present Fred Phelps or the reformist church as an authority on God while you don't believe those who actually knew Jesus. Seems to me that you just want to bury your head in sand.

A proper choice requires adequate information, otherwise it's just arbitrary and meaningless. I do not have anything approaching adequate information.

Well you can't rightfully plug your ears and then claim God isn't speaking.

I really don't think anyone actually has the desire to do evil, so no.

That is bizarre. Could you explain what you mean?

I think all Christians are worshipping a very flawed concept of Christ, so who's following the authentic Christ and who's following the frauds doesn't really enter into it.

We've already been over this. I don't sell you that cheap though, I think you do have the capacity to point to those of us who are sincerely following Christ (see beyond our mistakes and look at our nature), then you can see those who are following a false Christ. How long will you keep using this argument?

No, I actually don't. You use scripture to make your point, but so do they. I like yours better than theirs, that's to be sure. However, just because yours is a little kinder doesn't mean that your position is any more biblical, or theirs any less so. So, specifically, how are "they" not biblical, and how would you show that you are perfectly biblical?

The answer is in scripture itself (ironic no?).
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Notice the last part: thoroughly equipped for every good work. Do you think that telling atheist's that God hates them is "good work"? Think about Jesus' message to everyone He met. Did He tell them that God hates them? Did He ever say such a thing?

I haven't bothered to categorize, it's not my place. You define yourself the way you will, it's not up to me.

See that's the thing, I don't want to categorize myself, put myself in a box with all the right labels, and I think it's the same for you. I'm glad you can think of me as just being Christian And what's the difference between a Christian and an atheist? Logic? Common sense? Libido? Holiness? Arguable. Truly the only difference is our trust in Jesus.

 

[JGG]

And do you think this is the gospel of Jesus Christ? I can confirm that what is said is true, but like so many false teachers, they hardly bear good news. I think we can benefit from the Hebrew interlinear translation:

Psalm 53:1
he says decadent one in heart of him there is no Elohim they are corrupt and they are abhorrent iniquity there is no one doing of good.

Psalm 5:5
not they shall station themselves ones boasting to in front of eyes of you you hate all of ones contriving of lawlessness.

Wait, you changed Bibles so that the message was "good news?" I'm not sure that's particularly kosher.

Notice the words "stand in thy sight" and "station themselves in front of eyes of you". This means that God is a fearsome presence for those who have not made peace with Him. Notice one other thing here is that "God hates all workers of iniquity", "you hate all of ones contriving of lawlessness", "there is none that doeth good". How many atheist's have you met that haven't argued about God's definition of "good"? I have not met one. Not a single atheist in all my time observing them, has said God's good is good. That is an incredible statistic.

Not really. To an atheist there wouldn't be a "God's good." It's simply undefinable.

Is it making sense for you yet? These verses are describing how the conscience convicts us when we come into God's presence.

It does still say that atheists "are corrupt and they are abhorrent iniquity there is no one doing of good," and that "[God hates] all of ones contriving of lawlessness." In fact, it seems your translation has merely broadened the statement to say that God hates those who don't follow his laws.

I said the conscience convicts "us" and not "you". So why do you think a Christian can feel comfortable reading scriptures in God's presence while an atheist doesn't?

I'm not sure that an atheist doesn't feel comfortable reading scripture in God's presence. I'm not sure how you would go about showing that's true.

I just have to wonder why you present Fred Phelps or the reformist church as an authority on God while you don't believe those who actually knew Jesus. Seems to me that you just want to bury your head in sand.

Because you're not telling me to believe those "who actually knew Jesus," you're giving me your interpretation of the Bible and telling me to believe you. Just as Phelps & friends are telling me that they have interpreted those who actually knew and spoke to the Father, they interpret it, and then tell me to believe them. This is sort of my point. It is simply your interpretation vs. theirs.

Well you can't rightfully plug your ears and then claim God isn't speaking.

But, God isn't speaking. People claim that they are speaking on God's behalf. One person's God contradicts another person's God. One person's message contradicts another person's message. This method of communication between God and I is particularly unreliable, and prone to miscommunication. I do not have an incling to trust people, or the Bible without good reason. God is welcome to talk to me directly, but I don't trust the messengers.

That is bizarre. Could you explain what you mean?

Do you know any person that honestly says "I'm evil" or "I feel I should do something evil?"

We've already been over this. I don't sell you that cheap though, I think you do have the capacity to point to those of us who are sincerely following Christ (see beyond our mistakes and look at our nature), then you can see those who are following a false Christ. How long will you keep using this argument?

Okay, let me put it this way: I think Phelps & Friends are following the Christ they genuinely believe in just as much as you follow the Christ that you genuinely believe in. I don't think either is a vision of a genuine Christ.

The answer is in scripture itself (ironic no?).

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Notice the last part: thoroughly equipped for every good work. Do you think that telling atheist's that God hates them is "good work"? Think about Jesus' message to everyone He met. Did He tell them that God hates them? Did He ever say such a thing?

Is telling them that He loves them, when scripture says that He doesn't better work?

If I may paraphrase Phelps: Telling atheists that God hates them will cause them to fear God, and that will inspire them to believe in Him.

See that's the thing, I don't want to categorize myself, put myself in a box with all the right labels, and I think it's the same for you. I'm glad you can think of me as just being Christian And what's the difference between a Christian and an atheist? Logic? Common sense? Libido? Holiness? Arguable. Truly the only difference is our trust in Jesus.

And that atheists are inherently untrustworthy, communist, God-haters without a moral compass.

And I would say that I don't trust in the authors of the Bible.

 

[oi_antz]

Wait, you changed Bibles so that the message was "good news?" I'm not sure that's particularly kosher.

The only bible I know is good news! Maybe it is because my father's bible was called "Good news for modern man", the new testament, the cover stuck in my mind.

Not really. To an atheist there wouldn't be a "God's good." It's simply undefinable.

I don't understand this, unless you are making up a non-biblical concept of God, in which case you are dodging my point.

It does still say that atheists "are corrupt and they are abhorrent iniquity there is no one doing of good," and that "[God hates] all of ones contriving of lawlessness." In fact, it seems your translation has merely broadened the statement to say that God hates those who don't follow his laws.

Why do you look for God's hate instead of God's love?

I'm not sure that an atheist doesn't feel comfortable reading scripture in God's presence. I'm not sure how you would go about showing that's true.

I can't actually, you are right about that. What I can do is show them what they are wrong about. God says through the bible that we are all sinners (even Christians before they converted, we are all sinners). This is what He says:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Do you not think that God is being longsuffering with you? What if you thought He was, would you look upon the scripture in light of His love? Why say no? I was 30 years old when He shone His light on my heart. Some have it younger, others older, some never. It can only happen when you are ready, that probably means for you that you will have exhausted all other options. Remember our days are limited, this is the manner in which God declared it so:

Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

Note this, that God has declared He will not strive with man forever. You may be stubborn but you can't shift God.

Because you're not telling me to believe those "who actually knew Jesus," you're giving me your interpretation of the Bible and telling me to believe you. Just as Phelps & friends are telling me that they have interpreted those who actually knew and spoke to the Father, they interpret it, and then tell me to believe them. This is sort of my point. It is simply your interpretation vs. theirs.

But, God isn't speaking. People claim that they are speaking on God's behalf. One person's God contradicts another person's God. One person's message contradicts another person's message. This method of communication between God and I is particularly unreliable, and prone to miscommunication. I do not have an incling to trust people, or the Bible without good reason. God is welcome to talk to me directly, but I don't trust the messengers.

I don't contradict Ray, s_s, rturner and nor do they contradict me. Same I would expect from you when Jesus speaks to you, because you are honest enough.

Where do you get this impression that we all contradict each other, from watching immature kids on their high horse? Why is that? Why do you consistently argue no true scotsman when you know it is false? Or have you truly not noticed the consistency among these people, bling, hedena, elman, goodbook, harrycovert, solarwave, salida, joey_downunder etc etc (sorry if I missed you)? About the only thing that we disagree on is the literal interpretation of Genesis and even then it doesn't matter who is right as long as we get the gist of it and can discuss it intelligently. Know that the letter kills but the spirit gives life. Know this. Look for the spirit that gives life, you should be able to see it because I do.

Do you know any person that honestly says "I'm evil" or "I feel I should do something evil?"

Snuff, Paedophilia, Masturbation. Yes, people honestly think "I should jack off right now", in fact it consumes some of us. These things are evil according to God's law.

Okay, let me put it this way: I think Phelps & Friends are following the Christ they genuinely believe in just as much as you follow the Christ that you genuinely believe in. I don't think either is a vision of a genuine Christ.

Okay, I can accept that statement, but I will require that you stop saying that hateful Christians represent loving Christians. There is obviously a difference, mainly in maturity I think because I've even seen loving Christians get broody. I'm also not sure that Fred is following a different Christ, I would need to look into it further before agreeing to that. It's probably more a matter of emphasis.

Is telling them that He loves them, when scripture says that He doesn't better work?

It is good work, yes. Because the aim of this life is to love God, that's pretty obvious. Life is wasted if you can't manage that much. How you go about doing so is your own personal journey. What's my journey you might ask? Well it's been all over the show with recent personal events but I think now I'm just going to settle down and make the most of life in a way I never really thought I would want to.

If I may paraphrase Phelps: Telling atheists that God hates them will cause them to fear God, and that will inspire them to believe in Him.

Has it worked? I think Fred just likes attention.

And that atheists are inherently untrustworthy, communist, God-haters without a moral compass.

James 3:1
[ The Untamable Tongue ] My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

And I would say that I don't trust in the authors of the Bible.

Why not?