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Armageddon in Daniel 9 and Ezekiel 39

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Apr 1, 2014.

  1. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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    Well, that's ok for now. We have agreement on Det 31:29 and dan 10:14 revering to the same latter days. That's in agreement.

    What's in disagreement is what those latter days referred to. :)


    As mentioned before, I don't think the spirit and intent of the mention of an increase in k.owledge is intended to read as a defining characteristic to qualify when "the time if the end" occurs. It's too subjective, general and passive of a statement. If that were the intent it would read; The time of the end will occur when means of transportation and methods if communicating knowledge, as well as that knowledge will far exceed what we kniw of today; refering to daniels day.

    It reads as if its part of a stanza in a poem and mrant to reiterate or support the idea that it will not come in Daniels lifetime or in the next few generations, but after some time has psssed. The difference between this perspective of those words and your perspective is the difference between hearing/reading the priphecies as poetry (which most are) versus reading them as an english secret code and literal, dictated words to be decoded. The first is what I believe is following the spirit or intent of the prophecy and to the time period of their original audience versus seeking the LETTER of the prophecy. Paul talks of thus error in 2 cor 3.

    So, if the latter days of deut 31:29 could be shown and proven to refer to the latter days of the temlorary mosaic covt period and their "latter dnds" of deut 32:20,29, then we could agree and would have to agree that the "time if the end" would also have to refer to the previosly mentioned "time of the end if the mosaic covenant, wouldn't we??

    I believe and am confident from the context of moses speech of the book of deuteronomy made to the people from mt nebo just before crossing Jordan, and from the context of Daniels prayer in ch 9 and its and the captivities relation to that speech, that the "latter days" of deut 31:29 & 32:20,29 referred to thae latfer days of the mosaic covt and its people after the new covt and Shiloh (gen 49:1) arrived.

    In the same way, if you coul PROVE that the casual mentioning of the increase of knowledge and travel was supposed to be i.tended as an absolute time indicator for the fulfilling of the "time of the end" then I woukd also have to concede tbat the latter days referred and were ONLY applicable to the time parameters when travel and knowledge would increase. Wouldn't I??

    It's almost the same subjectivity that's applied to Jesus saying that "this generation won't pass till all those things wrre fulfilled. Objectively speaki.g, he was reiterating that all those things would occur within the next 40 yrs. Subjectively, If ee don't understand how they were fulfilled we can change the spirit and intent of thise words by focusing on this detail or that detail.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Consider the positive, if my perspective is right, then the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the changing of those who are living into our everlasting bodies is right at the door.
    It's subjective, but the degree of increase coincides with the other prophecies concerning (1) Jersualem the fig tree in the hands of the Jews and (2) Israel a nation borne in a day. Those two things are of a nature that are not going to happen again.

    So, because Israel is not going to go into global dispersion and come back to be borne a nation in a day again, likewise with Jerusalem, the fig tree, we know that the increase in travel and knowledge in another exponential increase is not sometime in the future (compared to what we have seen in the fig tree Jerusalem generation). Which I think you are saying of the possibility.

    Look up for your redemption draws near. :clap::clap::clap:
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
  3. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    No. Jesus is pointing to something they can relate to. It is a sign to them (the disciples), to know when to leave Jerusalem. This is what it's all about because the very next thing Jesus says is "THEN, they who are in Judea must flee..."

    It a sign...and because they understand they will know to flee.

    No...you think I'm wrong. But this is pretty much like a person that has never been through a tornado, or earthquake...when it happens they never forget the signs of one.

    The Jews had experienced the desecration of the temple and they knew when the Romans surrounded Jerusalem the temple was about to be defiled again.

    So think what you want...but it happened! In 70 AD the Romans defiled the temple and after defiling it...they destroyed it.

    Like I said before, there's no need to keep going around about it...let's see if it happens *if* we're alive to witness the end.
     
  4. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Keras, you may be familiar but your application is wrong (and I think you mean Ezekiel 21).

    Read the passage again Keras, because Israel has been dispersed, Jerusalem had been spared, but Nebuchadnezzar is about to be used of God to destroy Jerusalem and the temple and carry Judah off to Babylon.

    You ignore what the situation is at the time of the prophecy...again!
     
  5. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Trying to discuss these issues with a preterist is completely unfruitful.
    Although maybe all those lurkers out there can learn something and decide for themselves what is right.
    For myself, I take Pauls word as the truth; 1 Cor. 10:11 All those things that happened to them, [the ancient Israelites] were symbolic and were recorded as a warning for us, upon whom the end of the age has come.
    Yes, Ezekiel 21:14 is the relevant verse. A lot of interesting info in that chapter.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
  6. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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    I'm glad were keeping it ciivil and amicable. My perspective does not recongnize ither the fig tree's pusing of its leaves or 1948 or '67 as referring to a rebirth of Israel. The fig tree (if it pertained to Israel) applied to its pushing against tge roman occupation and conl of the late '60's in the same way that many other nations (trees) did. The nation born in a day is not israel as that birth was when joshua led the across Jordan. It was refering to the nation of those gathered under Jesus and the laws of the new covenant. It was birthed out of the mosaic covt mother BEFORE her time of tribulation. (Before her seige)

    So, in my understanding those are not supportive.

    Hey Dougg; I have a post over in covenant theology section that I'd offer to you to create some thoughtand meditation. Its called; how can Jesus be a prophet like unto Moses and yet the new covenant would be NOT LIKE tbe one made through moses.



    ..es
     
  7. Choose Wisely

    Choose Wisely Forgiven Supporter

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    Matt 24:15-16 is absolutley NOT the same event as Luke 21:20-21.

    What are you reading????????????

    In both Matt 24 and Luke 21 we hear of nations rising against nations, earthquakes, disease, pestilence etc etc.

    After these events, Matthew 24:9 says:

    Matt 24
    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

    So in Matthew after nation rises against nation......THEN SHALL THEY.......

    But in Luke after the events of nations rising against nations, earthquakes, famine etc etc. Luke 21:12 says:

    12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

    So in Luke after nation rises against nation.....BUT BEFORE ALL THESE......

    CONCLUSION: Matt 24 is referring to future events after nations rise against nations. Luke 21 is referring to events that occur before these nations rise against nations.......70 AD.

    BOTTOM LINE: I have faith that you are able to read and comprehend what the the Bible is saying here. You should know the difference between ...THEN SHALL THEY (future) ......and......BUT BEFORE ALL THESE (past) ........ You can continue lying to yourself or you can open your eyes and your heart to the truth. Why a man would lie to himself is beyond what I am capable of understanding.
     
  8. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    If you think so. As I read...they're the same thing! The only difference is Luke writes from a different viewpoint.

    It's like when two people see the same thing but their viewpoints are different.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The new covenant did not erase God's promise under the Mt. Sinai covenant as far as the land belonging to the blood descendants of the children of Israel.

    What the new covenant did was to give eternal life, which was never part of the old covenant. Keeping the law under the old covenant was seen as way to be righteous before God. And when they did sin, there was the atonement system in place under the old covenant - as a temporary system until Jesus came. And in the bible there are many person called righteous. But no-one is called perfectly righteous.

    What the Jews did not recognize that no one is "perfectly" righteous before God. Which indicates that no-one really does God's will as to how we are to conduct ourselves - which is another way of saying all are guilty of sin.

    In Christ, the new covenant, the imperfect atonement system of the Mt. Sinai covenant was done away with as far as dealing with sin. And being atoned for by Christ's blood, we have eternal life, being made "perfectly" righteous before God, as Christ's perfect righteousness is imputed to us.

    However, none of that changes that God has chose Israel as a called out nation, even if they don't live up to it. And that the land of Israel, the promised land, God gave the literal Children of Israel forever, under that Mt. Sinai covenant which is said to be an everlasting covenant. But again that covenant was never a covenant to have eternal life, in case you get to talking to a Judiasm counter missionary.

    The idea of the Israel being the fig tree, actually one I held myself, based on what Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe were saying back in the day - failed the generation test in May of 2011. 1948+70=2018 minus 7 years, the Antichrist was supposedly supposed to confirm the covenant sometime before then. Didn't happen. So Israel is not the fig tree generation.

    But after further study, because of Jesus cursing the fig tree before entering Jerusalem, and then saying to them that the kingdom of God was taken from them because they rejected him as their king, and the fig tree cursed withered up in such a short time - Jerusalem is undoubtedly the fig tree. 1967 back in the hands of the Jews.

    Same math as above, but I can't do it in this post because some people here consider that a not-later-than general timeframe is "date setting".

    Back in the Romans day, before and after Jesus's first coming, a 1000 years, the transportation was still foot, horse, paddle, sail. So that doesn't meet the increase in transportation and knowledge requirement.

    okay, I will go look :)
     
  10. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Trying to discuss them with a futurist that ignores history makes unfruitful as well.

    Especially when Ezekiel tells you the time of His prophecy. Ezekiel 1:1:
    Now it came about in the thirtieth year, on the fifth day of the fourth month, while I was by the river Chebar among the exiles, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.

    So Israel is in exile at the hands of the Assyrians Keras. Ezekiel is prophesying the fall of Jerusalem.

    Now watch Ezekiel 21:18, 19:
    18 The word of the Lord came to me saying,
    19 “As for you, son of man, make two ways for the sword of the king of Babylon to come; both of them will go out of one land. And make a signpost; make it at the head of the way to the city.


    :confused:

    Like I said,discussing this with a futurist...is fruitless IF they won't read ALL of the prophecy!
     
  11. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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    Doug; I won't reply inline. But; though national Israel might be analogized as the fig tree; if you agree that Jesus cursed the fig tree, why would you clain it was restored??

    I disagree that the land was the focus of any everlasting covt. For one, the latter days of jacobs physical descendants ended with the coming of Shiloh. (Gen 49:1-10) If the parameters of that territory belonged to anyone it would be to believers of Jesus, and all humanity etc. To them it was said that the meek shall inheirit the land. Irregardless of who occupies it stands as testimony against the mosaic covt way and in favor of the way of life through justification by faith in the reality of the creator God and his transcendance and continual visitation and presence through the law of faith.

    Just as things didn't transpire in association with 1948, neither will they in association with 1967. The whole futurist scheme is wrong and based in faulty literal hermeneutics of the epistles.

    I expect i've made the agreed upon connection netween deut 31:29 & Dan 10:14. In time , I'll start a thread or post a link that shows that deut 30 -32 were fulfilled during the first century.

    There are also some who say that the word "everlasting" is "age enduring" and is not the same as the word for eternal. I had studied it one time and though I could agree. something like the difference between Olam and lam, or something similar. Thus, the implications are that the land would be an available location to work out the stage of his coming and to establish the new creation of Gods indwelling. Thus gje promise of that land was also to the æeople of that covt were also until Shiloh and until that age was complete.

    The keeping of the land was in connection with performing all the law, thus inseperable ffom performing the sacrifices.

    The new land (earth) of the new covenant is the soul, mind, spirit, will and body of the reciever and declarer of his persons. That is wherever they inhabit and dwell. They reside in Jesus's "state" and doctrine of Peace and he resides in them.

    So we're in disagreement, and I'll try to post some proofs in the future. If interested, I think it would do anyone good to read the book of deuteronomy from start to finish several times and see exactly what moses was saying and what the parameters of the contract were.
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Israel is not the fig tree in the learn the parable of the fig tree.

    That Israel became a nation again in 1948 on one day - is a separate issue. Which is the Isaiah 66:7-8 prophecy. Conversely, Jerusalem is not in Isaiah 66:7-8, but is the fig tree in Matthew 24.

    Israel - the unified nation, the reunited 2 sticks of Israel and Juda, 1948, the nation in one day, Isaiah 66:7-8

    Jerusalem - the fig tree in the learn the parable of the fig tree, and that generation not passing away, 1967.

    Those two things are not interchangeable. So a person has to keep those two straight.

    The break down of the land when Jesus returns is by the 12 tribes in Ezekiel 48.

    The meek shall inherit the earth. You wrote "land". It is not saying that the meek of other peoples, kindreds, tongues shall inherit the land of Israel, in place of the children of Israel.

    1948 didn't transpire because Israel is not the fig tree. Jerusalem is.

    Anyone can make a post supporting their point of view - as long as they ignore the parts of the bible which show it to be wrong. You are fragmenting to hold onto the preterist point of view.

    I am going to have to agree with the Jews (Judaism) who cite different passages in the bible that the covenant, God made with them on Mt. Sinai is everlasting - as far as earthly blessings go.

    But the Mt. Sinai was never a covenant for eternal life, even with it's system of atonement . And the new covenant in Jesus is not intended to be a covenant for the land of Israel, but is for Salvation of the soul and redemption of the body - atonement by the shed blood of Jesus.

    I think you are trying to make the new covenant something that it is not.

    Actually no, because no one is capable of perfectly keeping the law. That's why there was an atonement system setup for sins and trespasses.

    Both exiles were because of worshiping false gods. And not letting the land rest.

    Well, you've gone so far off into the "twilight" zone, I am not even going to try....

    I think you need to focus on Deuteronomy 31:10-11, as that is the 7 years which the Antichrist prince who shall come will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant "for" 7 years, in Daniel 9.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
  13. Bible2

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    When Jesus says "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20) he's referring to the first part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says "the desolation" in Luke 21:20 he's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15 he's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31.

    So Luke 21:20-23 isn't referring to 70 AD nor (as is sometimes claimed) to the pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur at the very end of the future tribulation, right before Jesus' 2nd coming to save Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), but is referring to what will happen mid-tribulation when the Antichrist will antitypically fulfill Daniel 11:31 at the start of his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), during which 3.5 years Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2b), which future treading down is what Luke 21:24 is referring to.

    Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they've stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will pollute the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

    The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the 1st part of it antitypically, and the rest for the 1st and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

    Regarding "Judaea" (Luke 20:21), note that this doesn't have to mean 1st-century-AD Judaea. For there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) still today. They contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

    The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation of the earth (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to believers around the world.

    Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

    And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    Note that just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

    Also, the end of Herod's temple building (also called the 2nd temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single 2nd temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple complex map insert in the December 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

    Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
     
  14. Bible2

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    The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.
     
  15. Bible2

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    Note that Deuteronomy 31:10-11 refers only to the reading of the Old Covenant Mosaic law as given in the entire book of Deuteronomy (Deuteronomy 31:12b, Deuteronomy 28:58, Deuteronomy 27:26, Nehemiah 8), and only "at the end" of 7 years, meaning at the end of every 7 years, and only while the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was still in effect (it was abolished on the Cross: Ephesians 2:15-16).

    Note that this has nothing to do with Daniel 9:27a, which includes reference to one particular, future, man-made peace treaty/covenant (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a) being confirmed at the start of one particular, future 7-year period.

    In Daniel 9:26, the original Hebrew word (karath, H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). The future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

    This treaty will allow this false Messiah and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

    In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).
     
  16. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    I'll stand with what i said Bible2...:thumbsup:
     
  17. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    In my 4 books and website with over 500 articles on Bible prophecy, I have surely read and written about ALL prophecy. Although, for sure, in that amazing book -the Bible, I still find information and details that enlighten the Prophetic Word.
    As for Ezekiel 21:18-27 Yes, that passage does prophesy about the Babylonian conquest. It is a description of the first 'swing of the Sword'. Another example of fulfilled prophecy and how King Zedekiah was 'overturned' and there will be no King in Jerusalem until the One comes who is the rightful Ruler.
    Then Ezekiel 21:28-32 is a unfulfilled prophecy against the Ammonites. [Jordanians] How the Sword of the Lord will flash like lightning and they will be fuel for the fire, with not even a memory of them left.
     
  18. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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    Doug;
    I think its evident in our lifetimes alone that futurists change their interpretations when they prove themselves wrong. I don't have to repear what I said about Israel not being the nation born in a day, or the fig tree pushing its leaves.

    And I intentionally wrote "land'. The meek who followed and heard Jesus re-inhabited the land while the others were destroyed in 70AD and again in 135 AD. And they spread through the world , not as futurist 'christians' under Ireneous, but as humans under Jesus. (Different topic)

    Deut 31:10,11 has nothing to do with a peace agreement. Are you dure you want to keep such an objectively and openly foolish claim?? vs 10 was an instruction that the people were to take the book of deuteronomy out of the ark, or read a copy, before all the people. The book of deut had its latter ends in the first century. It hasn't been read every 7 yrs since that time to my knowledge.

    Likewise, the gathering of the stick of Israel with Judah in ez37 was a gathering under one head (jesus) of believersþof both areas and all people. This is the same appointing one head (jesus) mentioned in Gen 49:10; hosea 1:11; Ez 37:20ff and zech 14:9. That this is speaking of the new covt can be seen in the reference to shiloh in gen 49 and to the new heart in Ez 37:14. Hosea 1:11 says that the gathering would be UP, OUT OF THE LAND. They (christians departed the land and gathered with bretheren of former tribes of Israel which had since their leaving, had been considered "Not" the people of God along with other 'Gentilez'. The "gathering " would be under Jesus's new ordinances of grace, truth and the law of faith.

    This is the gathering which Paul wrutes about in 2 Thess 2:1 and even 1 thess 4:17. It's not a rapture, but an appearance of being snatched out of the land by their quick leaving. The 'air' in 1 thess 4:-:17 is not the word for heavens, but 'air'

    At least we're in agreement that the "latter days" of deut 31:29 (and 32:20,29) are the latter days and 'time of the end" of the book of Daniel.




    Now, if you (or others) would; as a begining, read over the book of deut as if you were standing besides moses when he spoke the words. Then taking note od deut 30:1-5 read over Daniels prayer in chapter 9. What does Daniel say is the "curse of the law of moses" according to his location when making the prayer.

    Question 2. Could we agree with Paul inRom 10:5-8 that deut 30:6-14 is talking of the new covt of Jer 31 and Ez 36:25ff & 37:14 .??

    Question 3. Does moses in deut 30 appear to indicate that the new covt (by the new prophet of deut 18 ) would arrive coinciding with, or after the confessionof the curse of the law of moses and the return from that curse?

    Just from moses' prophecy of deut 30 alone, would there be a reasonable need for God to have to clarify if the new covt (by the new prophet) were NOT going to directly accompany the confession and the return from that captivity??

    Now,






    ..
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
  19. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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    Ebed; could you comment on Is 29 and the similar elements in that chapter as what we're lalking about.? A nigh vision, a sealed book, the seige and laying low of Ariel.

    Also, I find a connection between Dan 12:1 and Jesus' similar statements in the olivet. Jesus says, "nor shall ever be" while Dan says "even to that same time" thereby affirming the end of the nation with the time of trouble of the nation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    No, Deuteronomy 31:10-11 doesn't have anything to do with a peace agreement. The notion that the confirmation of the covenant in Daniel 9:26 is a peace agreement is a popular speculation by many - but I don't think it is a peace agreement at all.

    What Deuteronomy 31:10-11 is about is that Moses made a law to commemorate the order for that second generation of the Children of Israel to go in and possess the promised land.

    It was the reading of the marching orders, it was not the reading of the entire book of Deuteronomy. In similitude, we don't read the U.S. constitution on 4 July, but we commemorate that day the country's forefathers declared Independence, so as not to forget.

    Moses set the cycle of the reading every 7 years, to be done by every generation forever.

    The two requirements though were (1) it had to be done on the feast of tabernacles (2) it had to be from the place of God's choosing.

    I have talked to Jews (Judaism) about this very topic. They view the place of God's choosing as the temple mount. So that's why you don't hear about any such ceremonies taking place - because the Muslims will never let it happen, because essentially it is a declaration that God gave the land to the Jews. Which Islam says no, that it belongs to the muslims.

    After Gog/Magog, of course the muslims will no longer be an obstacle. And the Antichrist as the prince who shall come (from the EU), perceived to the Jews long awaited messiah, God's promised King of Israel, son of David, he will oversee the reading - which is the confirmation of the covenant (the Mt. Sinai covenant) that God gave the land to the Children of Israel forever.

    The confirmation of the covenant for 7 years is not a peace treaty, that is a popular , but wrong, view.

    It's two sticks to be joined as one. Israel, one stick, represented the northern ten tribes. Judah, the other stick, represented the southern two tribes. They were Israel that, after Solomon, had become divided into two separate kingdoms. The northern kingdom went into the Assyrian captivity. The southern kingdom went into the Babylonian captivity.

    Those two separated kingdoms were not joined as the one united nation of Israel back in Jesus's day.

    The disciples in Acts 1 asked Jesus if he was at that time going to restore the kingdom to Israel. Implying reuniting the country again as one country, with one king and Jesus being that King ruling from David's throne.

    He gave them an answer that it was not for them to know the time or season. Which is another way of saying no, not at that time.

    In 1948, God brought Jews from among the nations, and reformed the one united country again - Israel. It is not a kingdom yet because she doesn't have a king. We are a witness to those things.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
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