Armageddon in Daniel 9 and Ezekiel 39

[Douggg]

Outline of this presentation.

1. Ezekiel 39:17-20 ties to Revelation 19:17-18 as the Armageddon Feast.

2. Daniel 12:11-12 ties the Abomination of Desolation lasting until Jesus returns on the 1335th day.

3. Daniel 9:26c ties the end of the 490 years to the Armagedden war, and the end of abominations, which the Abomination of Desolation is the last.


In Ezekiel 39:4 there is the feast on Gog's army. 7 years after the destruction of Gog's army, there is another feast, which is the Armageddon feast in Ez years afterekiel 39:17-20.

in Ezekiel 39:
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God.
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen [Jesus returned to this earth], and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them [Revelation 19:21].


In Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


In Daniel 12, in the end times,



11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.




In Daniel 9:26


(a) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:



(b) and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;



(c) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.



Daniel 9:26c the end thereof of the 70 weeks shall be with a flood. Which Jesus predicted the time of His Coming like a flood overtaking the world so quickly in Matthew 24. And Satan sends out a flood metaphorically to destroy the woman Israel in Revelation 12. That time ending when Jesus returns in Revelation 19.


And unto the end of the war (the Armageddon War) at the end of the 70 weeks and the end of the last week, desolations are determined. Which in Daniel 12:11-12, the end times Abomination of Desolation is the last. And that specific desolation, Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24, as being the start of the great tribulation. Everything ending with His return.

Gabriel, the mighty angel, who delivered the 70 weeks message to Daniel, at the time probably didn't even know what "the war" was, since Revelation wasn't given until Jesus opened the seals, which within them Armageddon was revealed.

 

[Notrash]

What if the time of the end isn't the 'end times of earth and nations, but the 'time of the end of a previosly prophecied end of national Israel of the mpsaic covt? This was prophecied in deut 4:25,26; 31:29; 32:20,29. All of Daniels prophecies add additional information (as do the other prophets from Samuel onward) of these first (and some second century) days. Thats what Peter stated in Acts 3:22-24. Ez 36 & 37 contains the same description of the new covenant after they would be brought back from babylon. The gathering under one head and becoming one nation is the gathering under Jesus in the new nation of Christ. It's a nation of all races peoples languages.

Then in 38:8 still in the latter days of the mosaic covt nation and peoples (see Gen 49:1) and the verses mentioned in deut 4, 31 & 32; after many days (not many years or many generations) they would be brought back from the sword. The sword is 70 AD as taught in deut 32:41 & 42 and Is 59 and others Is 65 or 66. Thisþ, I believe was 133-135 ADÞwhen the nation reformed likely from israelites who had been scattered through the assyrian fispersion. They again persecuted and killed christians under Bar kochbah.

Christians are called the Israel of God by Paul in Gal 6. After the new covt is established througj the teaching and doctrine of love by christ, Israel or "my people Israel" can only refer to the new covt peoples under Christs headship. The mosaic covt temporary nation had its "LATTER END" and "UTTER DESTRUCTION" that was prophesied by Moses when the covt was given.

These prophecies aren't talking of a judgement of God on the earth and irreligious. Their talking of a judgement on the religious who persecuted the people of justification by aith in the GOOD, APPROVING, LOVING visitation of the Creator.

The curse on the earth due to mans "missing the mark" was lifted through the flood of Noah Gen 5:29. The curse of religious, conditional, stipulative, racist law (temporary) was lifted through the flood of the blood of the man who had given tjat law as a temporary and anti-thetical way that was called NOT GOOD in Is 65:1,2. And the curse of that way was removed with the flood of Roman solduers and the blood of the disbeliving, life, law and love rejecting mosaic covt people groups.

 

[Douggg]

What if the time of the end isn't the 'end times of earth and nations, but the 'time of the end of a previosly prophecied end of national Israel of the mpsaic covt?

The time of the end is when transportation and knowledge are increased.


In Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.


Do you know who Daniel's people are? They are Israel. Daniel 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God;




4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.


The time of the end is not defined by who Israel is. It is defined by the characteristics of many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.


Israel and Jerusalem are signs of the time of the end. But that is really not the point of the opening post. Which you did not address any of the content.

 

[keras]

Making the Gog/Magog attack and Armageddon to be the same event just because God calls the birds and beasts to eat the corpses, is incorrect. The reasons for attack, the people involved, the lead up to it and the outcomes are all different. Gog and his horde are buried in a valley East of the Dead sea. All are burned up at Armageddon, except the AC [Satan] and he is chained up for 1000 years. The idea of birds and beasts eating flesh is just a graphic way of saying those soldiers are dead meat.
Most Bible scholars separate these so called wars, as can simply be ascertained by proper exegesis.

 

[Bible2]

Douggg said in post 1:

1. Ezekiel 39:17-20 ties to Revelation 19:17-18 as the Armageddon Feast.

Note that those passages don't require they're the same event. For it's common for birds to eat at dead bodies lying on a battlefield after any battle, before the bodies can be buried. Revelation 19:19-21 and Revelation 20:7-9/Ezekiel chapters 38-39 are 2 different events, separated by over 1,000 years (Revelation 19:19 to 20:9). After the 1st event, Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3), whereas after the 2nd event, he will be cast into the lake of fire to suffer forever (Revelation 20:10).

Revelation 19:19-21 is the battle at Jesus' 2nd coming, which Zechariah 14:2-5 shows will occur at Jerusalem. After that battle will occur Jesus' physical reign on the earth (Zechariah 14:9-21) with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). It won't be until after the 1,000 years that the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Douggg said in post 1:

2. Daniel 12:11-12 ties the Abomination of Desolation lasting until Jesus returns on the 1335th day.

That could be right.

Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus' 2nd coming will occur, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up, and if the 7 vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), and if the first 6 vials will be poured out over 30 days, then the 6th vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

It's on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the 6th vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus' 2nd coming on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

Douggg said in post 1:

In Ezekiel 39:4 there is the feast on Gog's army. 7 years after the destruction of Gog's army, there is another feast, which is the Armageddon feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

Note that Ezekiel 39:17 doesn't have to be after Ezekiel 39:4, but can be the same event. For the verses in Ezekiel chapters 38-39 don't have to be chronological. For example, Gog's coming into Israel and his defeat by God in Ezekiel 39:2-4 doesn't have to happen after his defeat by God in Ezekiel 38:18-22.

Douggg said in post 1:

In Daniel 9:26

(a) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

In Daniel 9:26, the original Hebrew word (karath, H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). The future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false Messiah and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

Douggg said in post 1:

(b) and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

In the 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b, Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD by Roman-empire soldiers from nations throughout the Roman empire (which included the territory of modern-day Lebanon). These soldiers were "the people" in Daniel 9:26, their "prince" being Titus. In the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b, Jerusalem will be destroyed by all nations of the earth, which will all be under the Antichrist's rule by that time (Revelation 13:7b), when they gather against Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21).

And just as "the city" in Daniel 9:26 is Jerusalem, so "the sanctuary" is the Jewish temple building in Jerusalem. In the 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b, the 2nd Jewish temple was destroyed in 70 AD by Roman-empire soldiers. In the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b, a future, 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4) will be destroyed along with the rest of Jerusalem (Matthew 24:2, Luke 19:44), when Jerusalem is pillaged by all nations of the earth right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21).

*******

Douggg said in post 3:

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Note that the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time that Revelation was written in the 1st century AD. Therefore, "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus' 1st coming and his crucifixion for our sins.

So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' 1st coming and the writing of Revelation, going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what's going to happen in our future by seeing how much these 2 books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

Also, Daniel 12:6,8 doesn't contradict that the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers only to the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" that Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which have never been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the church's resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6), whereas Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the 1st century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).

 

[Douggg]

Making the Gog/Magog attack and Armageddon to be the same event just because God calls the birds and beasts to eat the corpses, is incorrect. The reasons for attack, the people involved, the lead up to it and the outcomes are all different. Gog and his horde are buried in a valley East of the Dead sea. All are burned up at Armageddon, except the AC [Satan] and he is chained up for 1000 years. The idea of birds and beasts eating flesh is just a graphic way of saying those soldiers are dead meat.
Most Bible scholars separate these so called wars, as can simply be ascertained by proper exegesis.

You have missed the point of the opening post. Gog/Magog is not Armageddon. Gog/Magog is 7 years before Armageddon.

The feast on Gog's army is in Ezekiel 39:4.

Then the Armageddon feast is 7 years later in Ezekiel 39:17-20. It is the feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20 that is the same feast as in Revelation 19:17-18.

The opening post is that the Armageddon feast is in Ezekiel 39, 7 years after Gog/Magog which is also in Ezekiel 39.

 

[Shocker]

Awesome thread Doug!

Nothing to add, just really digging what you've asserted here, good stuff..

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

The time of the end is when transportation and knowledge are increased.

Hi Douggg,

I hate to tell you, brother, but that is old news. I proved it wrong in the first chapter of my book and told what the increase of knowledge actually is. Just to show that it is not modern technology, take a very close look at verse (9).

Daniel 12:8-9Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”

9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Did you catch it? The (words) to this prophecy were shut up and sealed until the time of the end. In other words, this prophecy would be sealed up for a long time, and then continued in the last days. It was about 500 years later when the New Testament was written and this prophecy was continued. I actually discovered it in 2005, but it took me 7 years to write my book, but the connection to these two prophecies had been completely overlooked by scholars for almost 2000 years, because it was actually hidden inside of another prophecy.

In Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Do you know who Daniel's people are? They are Israel. Daniel 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God;

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The time of the end is not defined by who Israel is. It is defined by the characteristics of many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Israel and Jerusalem are signs of the time of the end. But that is really not the point of the opening post. Which you did not address any of the content.

You must be a pre-trib fan, because this is what they claim as well, that Daniel was written for the Jews only. Well, don't feel bad, because I was a pre-tribber, myself, for 15 years. However, in the second and third chapters in my book I also disproved this theory with irrefutable evidence. We gotta dig deeper, so let's take a closer look at Daniel's people.

This involves Daniel's (descendants) at the time of the end.
Look what time it is. We're looking far into the future at the great tribulation.
Now re-consider who Daniel's descendants were/are.
Now think all the way back to the cross. Christ was one of Daniel's descendants.
Christ' disciples were Daniel's far off descendants as well.
Now look at it again. It says everyone who is found written in the book.
And now consider that these same descendants that were the first to be converted to Christianity and they have passed the Gospel down to us, even us gentiles.
Just for Israel, I don't think so.


When Daniel's descendants, the ones who became Christ's disciples and have their names written in the book get resurrected, it's gonna be a sad day if we don't go with them, because they are the dead in Christ!!!

Now let me leave you with one last question, or maybe two.

Do you still believe the rapture will be before Daniel's 70th week (pre-trib)? Or will the dead in Christ rise first?

Check mate!

Cheers

 

[Notrash]

Again, Doug; Are you sure the time of the end is the end of time or the end of creation. Could it be referring to the time of the end of the mosaic covt nation of Moses that had been prophecied by Moses when he gave the covt.

See again deut 4:25,26; 18:15-19; 31:29 ad 32:20,29. See Gen 49:1,10. Note the almost exact wording of deut 31:29 with Dan 10:14. Aren't they talking of the same thing?

Knowledge running to and fro could and was just as effectively fulfilled during the Roman empire in comparison with the environment of Daniels day. They were in captivity in babylon for one thing. The common language of koine greek , their road system, and the relative peace of the roman empire in the first century made education, discussion, knowledge and communication increase.


Suppposing in another 500 years we have a common world language (perhaps even greek) or a hybrid of english, Hebrew, latin & russian. And they have recently perfected a brainwave reader that allows instant communication with another party when the two parties are thinking of one another. WSome will say this is a mark of the time of the end because knowledge is running to and fro and greatly increased in volume.

Or I'm sure those comments were made during the era of the printing press.

But from the time of Daniel when language and political-religious barriers seperated peoples, yhe roman empires culture greatlh increased knowledge and learning.

Read over the previous post again if you would and look up the verses. Read the book of ddut as a whole some evening. I have a blog at fulfilledprophecystudies.wordpress.com which asks a group of 20 aurstions connecting Daniel with Deuteronomy to show that the 'time of the end' is not the end of the world, but the end of that covenant and the people who persisted in it.

THANKS.


...

 

[Aijalon]

You have missed the point of the opening post. Gog/Magog is not Armageddon. Gog/Magog is 7 years before Armageddon.

The feast on Gog's army is in Ezekiel 39:4.

Then the Armageddon feast is 7 years later in Ezekiel 39:17-20. It is the feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20 that is the same feast as in Revelation 19:17-18.

The opening post is that the Armageddon feast is in Ezekiel 39, 7 years after Gog/Magog which is also in Ezekiel 39.

The feast of Ez 39:4 and later in that same chapter is a re-hash of the same feast.

There is ONE main event - The Day of the Lord - ther are two parties involed A) Gog, B) Birds. Each party receives a prohecy in turn, and the prophecy concerns the same thing. Speaking to each, in turn, does not mean that the things spoken are to happen separtely, after one another. Ezekiel is being commanded to give the oracle (speak God's words of truth) to each in their respective roles.


A) Ez 39:1-8 (What will happen to Gog, the prophecy "to" Gog)
B) Ez 39:9-16 (Isreal restores the land)
A) Ez 17:20 (the birds are prepared for (A) Gog, prophecy "to" the birds)
B) Ez 39:20-24 (God restores his name among the nations and Israel)

 

[Douggg]

Hi Douggg,

I hate to tell you, brother, but that is old news. I proved it wrong in the first chapter of my book and told what the increase of knowledge actually is. Just to show that it is not modern technology, take a very close look at verse (9).

Daniel 12:8-9Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”

9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Did you catch it? The (words) to this prophecy were shut up and sealed until the time of the end. In other words, this prophecy would be sealed up for a long time, and then continued in the last days.

The only characteristic that determines the time of the end is that transportation and knowledge is increased.

Not the sealing or unsealing of the book.

Not who is Israel.

It was about 500 years later when the New Testament was written and this prophecy was continued. I actually discovered it in 2005, but it took me 7 years to write my book, but the connection to these two prophecies had been completely overlooked by scholars for almost 2000 years, because it was actually hidden inside of another prophecy.

The New Testament written 500 years later is irrelavent to what determines the time of the end. The only characteristic that determines the time of the end is that transportation and knowledge is increased.

You must be a pre-trib fan, because this is what they claim as well, that Daniel was written for the Jews only. Well, don't feel bad, because I was a pre-tribber, myself, for 15 years. However, in the second and third chapters in my book I also disproved this theory with irrefutable evidence. We gotta dig deeper, so let's take a closer look at Daniel's people.

I am not pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath. I am anytime rapture view - which that view is the rapture can take place anytime from now and when it does. It may happen pre-trib (pre-70th week). Or it may not.

This involves Daniel's (descendants) at the time of the end.
Look what time it is. We're looking far into the future at the great tribulation.

Now re-consider who Daniel's descendants were/are.
Now think all the way back to the cross. Christ was one of Daniel's descendants.

The words in the text is not Daniel's descendants. It is Daniel's people. Jesus is not descended from Daniel. He is descended from Daniel's people.

Christ' disciples were Daniel's far off descendants as well.

No, none of them were Daniel's descendants. They were descendants of Daniel's people Israel. Which those people are descendants of the twelve tribes.

Now look at it again. It says everyone who is found written in the book.
And now consider that these same descendants that were the first to be converted to Christianity and they have passed the Gospel down to us, even us gentiles.

Just for Israel, I don't think so.

In Daniel 12, of Daniel's people, Israel. That verse is not intending to say just Daniel's people, Israel, are written in the book. But it is not saying that Daniel's people are gentiles, either.

When Daniel's descendants, the ones who became Christ's disciples and have their names written in the book get resurrected, it's gonna be a sad day if we don't go with them, because they are the dead in Christ!!!

Again, it is not Daniel's descendants. It is the descendants of Daniel's people, Israel. They will be resurrected in Christ, if they have received Christ.

Now let me leave you with one last question, or maybe two.

Do you still believe the rapture will be before Daniel's 70th week (pre-trib)? Or will the dead in Christ rise first?

I think I have responded to the first question - in that I am anytime rapture view, the only view that is 100% right, and no-one can say that it is wrong.

The second question. In 1thess4:15-18, when the rapture talks place which is the changing of the living, those who are dead in Christ their bodies will be resurrected in micro-second ahead of the living being changed.

Together, the resurrected dead and the changed living will meet Jesus in the air - to forever be with the Lord.

 

[Douggg]

Again, Doug; Are you sure the time of the end is the end of time or the end of creation. Could it be referring to the time of the end of the mosaic covt nation of Moses that had been prophecied by Moses when he gave the covt.

That is a separate issue to when is the time of the end. The time of the end is when travel and transportation is increased.

Who is Israel is a separate issue. Is the abomination of desolation something in people's hearts or a statue image is a separate issue.

The only thing that is determines the time of the end is when travel and transportation is increased.

The time of the end is our generation because of the increase in transportation and explosion of knowledge..

The issue you are bringing up is irrelavent to when is the time of the end.

Knowledge running to and fro could and was just as effectively fulfilled during the Roman empire in comparison with the environment of Daniels day.

Foot, horse, oar, sail - Daniel's time and Romans' time.

Suppposing in another 500 years we have a common world language (perhaps even greek) or a hybrid of english, Hebrew, latin & russian. And they have recently perfected a brainwave reader that allows instant communication with another party when the two parties are thinking of one another. Some will say this is a mark of the time of the end because knowledge is running to and fro and greatly increased in volume.

You can go to You Tube look up the song 2025 and adopt that as your eschatology if want - but that is not going to change that we are the time of the end Generation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhNM2K8cmU8

But from the time of Daniel when language and political-religious barriers seperated peoples, the roman empires culture greatlh increased knowledge and learning.

Living in our generation, you know better though, to know that is not the increase in transportation and knowledge.

Read over the previous post again if you would and look up the verses. Read the book of ddut as a whole some evening. I have a blog at fulfilledprophecystudies.wordpress.com which asks a group of 20 aurstions connecting Daniel with Deuteronomy to show that the 'time of the end' is not the end of the world, but the end of that covenant and the people who persisted in it.

THANKS.

The time of the end is determined by increase in travel and knowledge. That's it. What you are trying to do is escape the reality that the preterist view is wrong.

There are four or five views that cannot acknowledge that Israel over there is the Israel in bible prophecy. Because those views are invalidated once they do.

Here are those views, the ones I can think of off hand: Preterism, Historistism, Them who say the Papacy is the Antichrist, the Black Hebrew Israelites, Amillenialists.

 

[keras]

You have missed the point of the opening post. Gog/Magog is not Armageddon. Gog/Magog is 7 years before Armageddon.

The feast on Gog's army is in Ezekiel 39:4.

Then the Armageddon feast is 7 years later in Ezekiel 39:17-20. It is the feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20 that is the same feast as in Revelation 19:17-18.

The opening post is that the Armageddon feast is in Ezekiel 39, 7 years after Gog/Magog which is also in Ezekiel 39.

I see now what you are getting at. But I disagree with your hypothesis, because Eze. 39:21-29 goes on to describe the Lord's people -new Israelites, living once more in their homeland, displaying His holiness and being a light to the nations. So this all happens before the Return and Armageddon, and is just a reiteration of Eze 39:4.
Re the birds and beasts: In modern Israel and all The Mid East, there are now no wild lions, wolves of bears, as there once were. I did hear of an attempt to reintroduce vultures, but now other than pigeons and sparrows, there are very few birds or any kind of wild animals that could eat flesh. All that is simply an allegory to emphasise the great sacrifice that the Lord has prepared.

 

[Notrash]

I'm sorry Doug; your perspective doesn't hold water at all. Transportation and knowledge from the perspective of Daniels day is what is meant. It would be a subjective opinion to say that ee are now in the end because knowledge and travel have increased.

It does not say tjat an exponential increase in trabel and knowledge will be a sign of the end. That is how your reading it. It just says that in the time of the end... (END IF WHAT) travel and knowledge will increase from the climate tjat they were in Daniels Day.

Time of the end of WHAT??? ISn't it reasonable that if a end of the mosaic civt and Danieks people of the mosaic covt had been foretold by Moses that very likely these prophecies of a 'time of the end' would addþfurther information and prophetic detail to tose previous prophecies?

I have an open challange for you. I am on mobile and cannot copy & paste very well. Could you (or some other brother) post Gen 49:1,10; Deut 4:25,26; Deut 18: 15-19; 31:29, Dan 10:14; and deut 32:20 & 29 out in the open for all to see. These latter days and katter ends of the temporary mosaic covt were prophecied by modes 1000 yrs before Daniel right when Moses gave tbe covenant.

Thanks.

 

[Shocker]

I'm sorry Doug; your perspective doesn't hold water at all. Transportation and knowledge from the perspective of Daniels day is what is meant. It would be a subjective opinion to say that ee are now in the end because knowledge and travel have increased.

It does not say tjat an exponential increase in trabel and knowledge will be a sign of the end. That is how your reading it. It just says that in the time of the end... (END IF WHAT) travel and knowledge will increase from the climate tjat they were in Daniels Day.

Time of the end of WHAT??? ISn't it reasonable that if a end of the mosaic civt and Danieks people of the mosaic covt had been foretold by Moses that very likely these prophecies of a 'time of the end' would addþfurther information and prophetic detail to tose previous prophecies?

I have an open challange for you. I am on mobile and cannot copy & paste very well. Could you (or some other brother) post Gen 49:1,10; Deut 4:25,36; Deut 18: 15-19; 31:29, Dan 10:14; and deut 32:20 & 29 out in the open for all to see. These latter days and katter ends of the temporary mosaic covt were prophecied by modes 1000 yrs before Daniel right when Moses gave tbe covenant.

Thanks.

I pulled this from the NASB because its what I had up on my monitor.

Gen 49:1 Then Jacob summoned his sons and said, "Assemble yourselves that I may tell you what will befall you in the days to come.

Gen 49:10 "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes, And to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.

Deu 4:25 "When you become the father of children and children's children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD your God so as to provoke Him to anger,

Deu 4:36 "Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire.

Deu 18:15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.
Deu 18:16 "This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.'
Deu 18:17 "The LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well.
Deu 18:18 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
Deu 18:19 'It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.

Deu 31:29 "For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands."

Dan 10:14 "Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future."

Deu 32:20 "Then He said, 'I will hide My face from them, I will see what their end shall be; For they are a perverse generation, Sons in whom is no faithfulness.

Deu 32:29 "Would that they were wise, that they understood this, That they would discern their future!

 

[Notrash]

Here is the Kjv. I sometimes think the newer translations were skewed to allow or promote the zionists/dispensational perspectives. Such as the NIV unwarranredly translating "fullness" as full number in rom 11:25.


That should be deut 4:25 &26 not 36 sorry.

Gen 49:1,10; Deut 4:25-26; 18:15-19; Acts 3:22-24; Deut 31:29; Dan 10:14; Deut 32:20,29 KJV - And Jacob called unto his sons, and - Bible Gateway

 

[Douggg]

I'm sorry Doug; your perspective doesn't hold water at all. Transportation and knowledge from the perspective of Daniels day is what is meant. It would be a subjective opinion to say that ee are now in the end because knowledge and travel have increased.

The angel was the one given the message from God to Daniel. Angel means messenger.

travel and knowledge have exponentially increased from horse and buggy, to automobiles and planes. Knowledge has exploded in our time. This is not an arguable issue. It is cold hard fact.

It does not say tjat an exponential increase in trabel and knowledge will be a sign of the end. That is how your reading it. It just says that in the time of the end... (END IF WHAT) travel and knowledge will increase from the climate tjat they were in Daniels Day.

From the 1000's of years before Daniel and a 1000 years after Daniel, transportation was foot, horse, paddle, sail. The increase in transportation and knowledge is not just a sign, it is the essence of when the time of the end is.

End of what is a separate issue. The end of what has to be in our generation. So in another thread, if you want, you can tell me "what" ends in our generation.

Time of the end of WHAT??? ISn't it reasonable that if a end of the mosaic civt and Danieks people of the mosaic covt had been foretold by Moses that very likely these prophecies of a 'time of the end' would addþfurther information and prophetic detail to tose previous prophecies?

You don't understand. It is not the preterist viewpoint that determines the time of the end but the characteristic of travel and knowledge increase.

I have an open challange for you. I am on mobile and cannot copy & paste very well. Could you (or some other brother) post Gen 49:1,10; Deut 4:25,26; Deut 18: 15-19; 31:29, Dan 10:14; and deut 32:20 & 29 out in the open for all to see. These latter days and katter ends of the temporary mosaic covt were prophecied by modes 1000 yrs before Daniel right when Moses gave tbe covenant.

Thanks.

I am going to post one. But really you need to start another thread if you want to get into the end of what. This thread is about when.

In Deuteronomy 4:

25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, to provoke him to anger:
26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31 (For the Lord thy God is a merciful God ) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.


In Matthew 23:
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

It is during the great tribulation (Deuteronomy 4:30) period, that the Jews will turn to Jesus (Matthew 23:39). Hasn't happened yet, which shows the latter days were not in previous times.

 

[Notrash]

I really can't truly grasp your focus on travel and knowledge increasing as if it were a sign. But I doubt I'll be able to reason with you.

Compare deut 31:29 and dan 10:14. Aten't they alking of the same thing?

So, again my perspective is that there was a huge difference between the communicatiin of knowledge and travel frlm Daniels day AND the time of the 4th beast on the earth with each kingdom getting larger than the previous one._ The common language would allow knowledge to increase and the general roman peace would facilitate free travel.

At the very least I think many would agree and view this clue or "sign" as subjective and relative to Daniels time and not definative and absolute in declaring the present age or time.

Thus the "time of WHAT END is IMO the definative question. End of the mosaic covt age that was previosly prophesied? End of the world? END of creation? End of the roman empire?

If that doesn't stir thought for you, perhaps it will for others.



....

 

[Notrash]

I see you emphasized vs 31 over vs 26. I take that to mean that the mosaic covt way is destroyed but the believing remnant are not destroyed and individuals even after 70 AD who survive are not unable to come to grace throgh fith.

 

[Aijalon]

Post # 10.