Armageddon in Daniel 9 and Ezekiel 39

[keras]

It is during the great tribulation (Deuteronomy 4:30) period, that the Jews will turn to Jesus (Matthew 23:39). Hasn't happened yet, which shows the latter days were not in previous times. Quote from Dougg.
You have added a word that is not in Deut 4:30; 'great'. Other trans say: When you are in distress.... Therefore it isn't the Great Trib that is referred to here.
Also it is not just the Jews who this admonition applies to, it is all the 12 tribes of Israel and only God knows who they are - still scattered among the nations.
What most should read and understand is Ezekiel 37. This great chapter tells us how the Lord will spiritually regenerate our 'dry bones' and rejoin all Israelites, be they true descendants of Jacob or grafted in. Romans 9 Then; Eze 37:22-23 I shall make them a single nation in all of the holy Land...they will be My people and I will be their God. Isaiah 62:1-5
So what Moses was referring to is a event before the last 7 years of this age and that is the comprehensively prophesied Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath, His terrible fire judgement of the nations. It is the Sixth Seal devastation of the Middle East and a worldwide 'reset of civilization'. This virtual depopulation of all the holy Land will allow the prophesies as quoted above, plus many others to be fulfilled.

 

[ebedmelech]

I'll jump in here to share this:

Matthew 24:15-21:
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Compare Luke 21:20-24;
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke has made it pretty clear the AOD was when Rome sacked Jerusalem, destroyed the temple, and dispersed Israel. Those were the days of vengeance which came from our Lord! This act was not abominable to Christians, but to Jews who were still holding to the Old Covenant. That is truly what Jesus meant when he said to Jerusalem "behold YOUR HOUSE is left to you desolate". Jesus was meaning the temple...which is why we have the Olivet Discourse! It is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD!!!

When one is not considering the Old Covenant warnings that God gave Israel, it's easy not to understand what's happening in the Olivet Discourse. What is really happening here, is something God warned of in Leviticus 26:14-45. God does not forget...and He carried it out in 70 AD. Just as when God sent Nebuchadnezzar to destroy the temple under Zedekiah's reign, it's happening again here.

Note tin Leviticus 26, how God says "I will punish you seven times more for your sins" to Israel. Correlate that to Revelation...the seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven bowls. This is God rendering judgement on Israel as the Old Covenant ended with the crucifixion of Christ.

I know futurist think there will be a third temple, but I don't believe God will allow that to happen because Christ has made the supreme sacrifice.

Yes, Israel is back in the of Israel, but I hold that more to be because so many Christians believe futurism in the west, which is bringing about what *looks like* a self fulfilling prophecy. What Christians believe they will support, which is why Israel has enjoyed the support of the west for so long. That is changing...especially here in the US.

One thing's for sure...Jesus has this all under control. So let's be about His business, and let Him reign from the Fathers right hand.

God also tells Moses this will happen also in Deuteronomy 31:14-18.

This is NOT a future event for Israel/Jerusalem as I see it. The AOD was in 70 AD as judgment came upon Israel by Rome for not only the crucifixion of Christ...but also the breaking of the covenant and the persecution of the church, which we read beginning in Acts 8.

If you approach scripture allowing it to tell you...you can gain real insight as to the end times. Especially if you allow the NT apostles tell you HOW to understand the OT prophets.

No doubt the views of the end will continue to be an issue among Christians...but the good thing about it...is when it's over..."we will know, even as we are known".

 

[Douggg]

It is during the great tribulation (Deuteronomy 4:30) period, that the Jews will turn to Jesus (Matthew 23:39). Hasn't happened yet, which shows the latter days were not in previous times. Quote from Dougg.
You have added a word that is not in Deut 4:30; 'great'. Other trans say: When you are in distress.... Therefore it isn't the Great Trib that is referred to here.
Also it is not just the Jews who this admonition applies to, it is all the 12 tribes of Israel and only God knows who they are - still scattered among the nations.
What most should read and understand is Ezekiel 37. This great chapter tells us how the Lord will spiritually regenerate our 'dry bones' and rejoin all Israelites, be they true descendants of Jacob or grafted in. Romans 9 Then; Eze 37:22-23 I shall make them a single nation in all of the holy Land...they will be My people and I will be their God. Isaiah 62:1-5
So what Moses was referring to is a event before the last 7 years of this age and that is the comprehensively prophesied Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath, His terrible fire judgement of the nations. It is the Sixth Seal devastation of the Middle East and a worldwide 'reset of civilization'. This virtual depopulation of all the holy Land will allow the prophesies as quoted above, plus many others to be fulfilled.

Hi Keras, Moses was speaking as a prophet, a spokesman for God. Do you know why Moses did not say great tribulation? Because he wasn't given that information to call it the great tribulation. He gave the information that God gave him at that time.

But we have the information that the tribulation in the latter times is the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of.

In Matthew 24: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Do you know why even the mighty angel Gabriel did not come right out and say the prince who shall come is the Antichrist? Because he did not know!

Gabriel was only the messenger of what God revealed at that time.

Do you know why in Ezekiel 39, God did not come right out and say the feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20 was the Armageddon feast? Because it was not time to reveal that information back in Ezekiel's day.

Armageddon is not mentioned anywhere in the bible until Jesus broke the seals, which none of the angels in heaven knew what was in those seals. That's why Ezekiel 39:17-20 is not called Armageddon directly in the text.

And why Gabriel only called the prince who shall come - as that.

And Gabriel did not know anything about the Antichrist, ahead of what Jesus first told Nicodemus of the Jews embracing another instead of him.

And Gabriel did not know anything about the beast in Revelation. Because the beast is not revealed to even Gabriel and the angels until Jesus opened the seals.

And Daniel 12 is sealed from understanding until the time of the end.

And the information to even make Daniel 12 complete was not until Revelation was given.

Even so, the understanding of how all the prophecies fit together is not until the time of the end. That's why there is no comprehensive start to finish explanation of the prophecies how they fit together by any of the disciples.

 

[keras]

Ebed weighs in with his 'its all done and dusted view!
Yes, there was a partial fulfilment of the prophesies you quote above, but a far from a total one. Did the Roman soldiers 'set up the abominable thing that causes desolation? Dan 11:31.
Matthew 24:21 certainly has not been fulfilled as yet, we will sure know about that!

But I do approve of your quote from Galatians 6:16 we who believe and trust in the Lord will experience His great promises and then those who are blind [to the Prophetic Word] will see the truth. Isaiah 29:24

 

[Douggg]

If you approach scripture allowing it to tell you...you can gain real insight as to the end times. Especially if you allow the NT apostles tell you HOW to understand the OT prophets.

eb, there is not a single one of the apostles who understood how the end time prophecies fit together in a start to finish comprehensive explanation. It is not in the NT anywhere.

 

[Notrash]

My question would be if, in your view the time of the end' in Daniel is the same as 'the latter days' in Dan 10:14?

 

[keras]

Hi Keras, Moses was speaking as a prophet, a spokesman for God. Do you know why Moses did not say great tribulation? Because he wasn't given that information to call it the great tribulation. He gave the information that God gave him at that time. Quote from Dougg.
You only believe that idea because you don't see how there will be a 'time of distress' before the Great Tribulation. What about the Sixth Seal? That is the Day of the wrath of the Almighty and of the Lamb. Rev 6:17. The seals, trumpets and vials are a sequence of events, this is really indisputable, as the seals of a scroll must be removed before the scroll can be unrolled. To say the Sixth Seal either isn't the Day of Wrath or to place it at the Return, is outright Scripture manipulation and serious error.
Therefore what Moses prophesied is right - there will be a time of distress and that will sort out those who truly trust in the Lord, those who seek Him with all their heart... Deut 4:29-30, from all those who rely on their own strength.
Don't believe me, believe the Bible - all this will happen very soon. We Will see it!

 

[ebedmelech]

eb, there is not a single one of the apostles who understood how the end time prophecies fit together in a start to finish comprehensive explanation. It is not in the NT anywhere.

It's there. The apostles certainly laid it out. The problem is you pretty much won't listen.

You're only right in the respect that since we're in the 1000 year reign what we have to go by is what the apostles wrote to those Christians of the first century as to how to maintain.

However as far as what you put forth here...it came and went.

 

[Shocker]

It's there. The apostles certainly laid it out.

See, this is where I usually show up and map out scripture to make my case.

Lets watch and see what Ebed does when making a claim..


Will he go to the Bible? Phone a friend? Folks stay tuned..

I predict he will make the claim and not back his statement with scripture..

 

[ebedmelech]

See, this is where I usually show up and map out scripture to make my case.

Lets watch and see what Ebed does when making a claim..


Will he go to the Bible? Phone a friend? Folks stay tuned..

I predict he will make the claim and not back his statement with scripture..

That's where you're pretty wrong. We have the example of how we are to face any kind of tribulation right there in scripture.

Simply read what Christ addressed to the seven churches to do about whatever their condition was.

You can also see the example of how the church endured persecution throughout Acts.

Read what Christ instructed us to do in the beattitudes.

Not hard at all...

 

[Notrash]

My question would be if, in your view the time of the end' in Daniel is the same as 'the latter days' in Dan 10:14?

Bump for Dougg

 

[Notrash]

Was reading today in Isaiah 29. The passage talks of a book being unable to be understood by the unlearned beause they are unlearned ( 2 pet 3) nor by the learned because it is sealed. Its vs 10-12. And it mentions all the visions of the night as if they summarize in the time of the night visiin.

Then we Get to Dan 7, about 150 yrs later and we have the prophecy of the nigt vision the beast of the night vision; the roman empire.

Back to Is 59 and the first few verses which talk of God laying siege against Jerusalem in the same context of the time of the night vision.

Is one of the books that are sealed also the book of deuterinomy? The apostles commented frequently on ch 32 indicating its unsealing and fullfillment in the first century.

Comments? What a poetically beautiful chapter.

So we have the night vision, the mentiined of someone seeki.g to understand the sealed book and the prophecy against jerusalem by seige and ramps all in Is 29.

 

[Douggg]

Bump for Dougg

Yes. The angel gets to the latter days in Daniel 11:36

In Daniel 11
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.


The king in Daniel 11:36 is the Antichrist in the final stage of his career as the Antichrist beast.

 

[ebedmelech]

Ebed weighs in with his 'its all done and dusted view!
Yes, there was a partial fulfilment of the prophesies you quote above, but a far from a total one. Did the Roman soldiers 'set up the abominable thing that causes desolation? Dan 11:31.

No the Romans didn't do that...Antiochus Epiphanes did that before Jesus was even born into the world! He desecrated the temple Keras, forbade the Jews to circumcise their children, set up an idol inthe temple, and slaughtered a pig on the alter. Where have you been? Have you heard of the Maccabean revolt?

So yes "Ebed weighs in"...and you certainly don't have to agree...but research Hannukkah Keras. Try read 1 & 2 Maccabees also.

Matthew 24:21 certainly has not been fulfilled as yet, we will sure know about that!

You would know about it if you really look into it. Why do you think Luke's version says in Luke 21:23
23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;

"The land" is Israel...and "this people" ARE THE JEWS Keras! Have you even looked into the destruction of the temple and the carnage of it? Do yourself a favor and do that. Look into Josephus "The Jewish Wars"...and you might understand. Also check out "The Annals of Tacitus".

But I do approve of your quote from Galatians 6:16 we who believe and trust in the Lord will experience His great promises and then those who are blind [to the Prophetic Word] will see the truth. Isaiah 29:24

Well that's a good thing, But let me ask you once more to compare these two passages of the Olivet Discourse again:

Matthew 24;15, 16
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:20, 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;

They are the same event Keras! Matthew is speaking from a Jewish perspective, and Luke is being more clear for the benefit of Gentiles who wouldn't understand the AoD not knowing Jewish customs.

That was 70 AD!!!!

 

[Shocker]

No the Romans didn't do that...Antiochus Epiphanes did that before Jesus was even born into the world! He desecrated the temple Keras, forbade the Jews to circumcise their children, set up an idol inthe temple, and slaughtered a pig on the alter. Where have you been? Have you heard of the Maccabean revolt?

So yes "Ebed weighs in"...and you certainly don't have to agree...but research Hannukkah Keras. Try read 1 & 2 Maccabees also.

You would know about it if you really look into it. Why do you think Luke's version says in Luke 21:23
23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;

"The land" is Israel...and "this people" ARE THE JEWS Keras! Have you even looked into the destruction of the temple and the carnage of it? Do yourself a favor and do that. Look into Josephus "The Jewish Wars"...and you might understand. Also check out "The Annals of Tacitus".

Well that's a good thing, But let me ask you once more to compare these two passages of the Olivet Discourse again:

Matthew 24;15, 16
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:20, 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;

They are the same event Keras! Matthew is speaking from a Jewish perspective, and Luke is being more clear for the benefit of Gentiles who wouldn't understand the AoD not knowing Jewish customs.

That was 70 AD!!!!

So why did Jesus warn about the abomination that "already took place" if it was Antiochus?

When you see the "past abomination of Antiochus"

Doesn't make sense..

 

[Notrash]

Yes. The angel gets to the latter days in Daniel 11:36

In Daniel 11
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.


The king in Daniel 11:36 is the Antichrist in the final stage of his career as the Antichrist beast.

So, I'm getting the confirmation that you equate "the latter days" (of whatever latter days are being talked about) with the phrse"the time lf the end" as found about 3 (?) places in Daniel. I don't disagree and have viewed the different chapters of Daniel to overlap one another (and the revelation). From my perspeve they span the next 4 kingdoms of that region and culminated wihh the roman empire and the establishment of tje nation of the everlasting covt called new to those of the mosaic covt. Your perspective is that ir yet refers to a future time of calamity in association with wars and a subsequent remaking of the world. (Etc)

Can you also agree that Dan 10:14 and thus at least some of the "times of the end" are referring to the same "latter days" that are mentiined in deut 31:29?

(I am thinking that one or 2 "time of the end's" may refer to the time of the end of thst particular beast/kingdom that's being prophecied about in thst particular paragraph or stanza, or else I wouldn't have said, "at least some", but would have just asked if you can agree that Dan 10:14 and "the" 'times of the end' are referring to the same "latter days" in deut 31:29 (& 32:20,29)

So to simply summarize; can you agree that the Angels message of revealing information about '"latter days" of Dan 10:14 are speaking of the same "latter days " of deut 31:29; prophecied @ 1000 yrs earlier through Moses?

 

[keras]

Thanks, shocker, your post #35 refutes Ebed.
FYI Ebed, I am quite familiar with the Maccabean revolt and the fact that A4E desecrated the Temple 'in the 15th day of Kislev 167 BCE and then Judas Maccabaeus won the battle of Akrabattene in 164 BCE - exactly 2300 days later, thereby fulfilling Daniel 8:13-14
What you, and most others, don't seem to notice is the prophecy in Ezekiel 20:14..swing the great sword of slaughter three times... This is a prophecy specifically against Jerusalem and the holy Land. So there have been two 'slaughters' of the Jews- Babylon and Rome. The third is yet to come and we are told the Anti-Christ will conquer Israel, Daniel 7:25 and place his image in the new Temple. Daniel 11:31
But note; at that time is isn't just the Jews who are in the holy Land, it is a people under God's holy Covenant - v30. Some 'violate that Covenant' - v32, but those who remain faithful will take action. Some will die or become captive, this is a time of testing, for the end is yet to be.... v33-35 I see this time as the 1260 day period of the Great Tribulation, as described in Revelation and 'half of the population will escape', Zech 14:2, Rev 12:14.
We live in interesting times and if you believe the Bible to be truly God's Word to His people, then expect His prophesies to come to pass. Bring it on, Lord Jesus!

 

[ebedmelech]

So why did Jesus warn about the abomination that "already took place" if it was Antiochus?

When you see the "past abomination of Antiochus"

Doesn't make sense..

It makes sense when Jesus knows the Jews understands it from the tem-ple being defiled by Antiochus Epiphanes.

Kind of pay attention to what Jesus said...MNatthew 24:21:
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

For the reader to understand he must have knowledge of what the AoD is in the first place.

The fact that it was committed by Antiochus Epiphanes IS WHY the reader understands!

Daniel 11:31 was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes. It is the reason the Jews celebrate Hannkkah.

That is how "the reader understands":
Abomination That Causes Desolation, the - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology Online

They understand because it happened...and the Romans would desecrate the temple being Gentiles. Only the Levites could enter, and only high priest could enter the holy place.

It makes sense when you know what it is.

 

[Shocker]

It makes sense when Jesus knows the Jews understands it from the tem-ple being defiled by Antiochus Epiphanes.

Kind of pay attention to what Jesus said...MNatthew 24:21:
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

For the reader to understand he must have knowledge of what the AoD is in the first place.

The fact that it was committed by Antiochus Epiphanes IS WHY the reader understands!

Daniel 11:31 was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes. It is the reason the Jews celebrate Hannkkah.

That is how "the reader understands":
Abomination That Causes Desolation, the - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology Online

They understand because it happened...and the Romans would desecrate the temple being Gentiles. Only the Levites could enter, and only high priest could enter the holy place.

It makes sense when you know what it is.

Why did Christ say this if it was past.

Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),


If its past, they would never see it in the future..


Face it bro, you are wrong on this one.. clearly

 

[Douggg]

So to simply summarize; can you agree that the Angels message of revealing information about '"latter days" of Dan 10:14 are speaking of the same "latter days " of deut 31:29; prophecied @ 1000 yrs earlier through Moses?

What defines when is the end of times is when transportation and knowledge are increased.

So the latter days of Daniel 10:14 which when the angel get to those in Daniel 11 is the time when the willful king in Daniel 11:36 is claiming to be God, which is the Antichrist beast at that last 42 months before Jesus comes. Which is also the time when the AOD is setup to be worshiped in Daniel 12.

In Deuteronomy 31:29, the latter days when evil befalls upon the children of Israel, is the end of times when transportation and knowledge are increased, and they will suffer persecution under the Antichrist which for a short time thye will have embraced him as their King of Israel, son of David... who will turn on them when they impeach him as their king.

So, yes, everything is in the latter days. But not what you are interpreting as the latter days.

From my perspeve they span the next 4 kingdoms of that region and culminated wihh the roman empire and the establishment of tje nation of the everlasting covt called new to those of the mosaic covt. Your perspective is that ir yet refers to a future time of calamity in association with wars and a subsequent remaking of the world. (Etc)

The latter days are equilvalent to the time of the end. Which is determined as when transportation and knowledge are increased.

What you are doing is reasoning that the latter days span over the 4 kingdoms - not acknowledging that the latter days are at the time of the end - which in turn you cannot accept what it says about transportation and knowledge increased , because that would mean your preterist view is wrong.
even though you are witness to the world moving far beyond travel by foot, horse, paddle sail. That's the bottom line in your perspective.

I am associating the latter time with the time of the end as being when Jesus returns, when transportation and knowledge have increased AND in conjunction with the parable of the fig tree generation being Jerusalem AND in conjunction with Isaiah 66:7-8, Israel borne in a single day AND that generation being when the Jews will finally embrace Jesus as the Messiah AND that they will not see him again until they do so, in Matthew 23:39 AND when that generation will witness the resurrection of the dead, in Daniel 12:2.