Allah off the Richter scale

[rahma]

Maybe that's why Saudi Arabia only donated a laughable (considering their resources) 10 mio $ to the flood victims!

Saudi citizens donated $82 million in a single fund drive, included $10 million from the king. But then again, should this really be a contest?

 

[praying]

In some form or another, this has been said by many people going into battle. But these statements don't come from natural disasters.

Remember: 9-11 was an airplane being flown intentionally into a building full of people.

My point is the extremeist view it represents.

 

[twosid]

He apologized for this. He also went on to say a bunch more that put this in different context but He apologized all the same. He was making a connection to an agenda that had weakened our national defenses, had responded incorrectly to previous threats and on and on. But this still is a response to the actions of monsters, this was not a natural disaster. There is no apples and apples here.

God still allows all this to happen. God allowing 9/11 to happen was no different than God allowing the tsunami to happen. Falwell credited it to immorality much the same as the muslims did with the tsunami. I have personally heard him preach it. I have also heard the pastor of First Baptist Woodstock http://www.fbcw.org where I heard Falwell preach say on many occasions that he wished and regularly prayed that God would bankrupt our nation through whatever means necessary to get people to turn to God.

 

[Milla]

Lord, but I hate it when people presume to undertand the whys and hows of God. People need to stop endowing their creator with their own prejudices.

 

[jameseb]

Falwell has tried to back pedal by saying it was taken out of context, or that us "secularists" don't understand what he was saying. However, the bnet site I posted got the words directly from the transcript.

At least he apologized for such an absured remark, but how many imams across Arabia and in "Palestine" are apologizing for saying hundreds of thousands died because of Christianity?

 

[The Shredder]

At least he apologized for such an absured remark, but how many imams across Arabia and in "Palestine" are apologizing for saying hundreds of thousands died because of Christianity?

Yeah but how many of them are in a society filled with people of different faiths where because of these comments they are derided? Falwell didn't apologize out of genuine remorse, he apologized because of the reaction. If Falwell lived in a Christian country that usually agreed with his teachings, he wouldn't have reneged his statements because there wouldn't be an angry backlash.

And given that Falwell does make the same statements when not on the national stage, gives credence to the idea that he really wasn't sorry. He still broadcasts hateful speech. I see Falwell as being no different than the imams that say God caused the tsunami as some sort of punishment. Just take a look around this site and you'll find people that will claim the tsunami occurred because God is punishing the non-Christians in Asia. These are unfounded and ignorant claims of course, because they are based on xenophobic and racist assumpstions. Many of the people that would make the statements from a Christian perspective don't even know about the small island community that is 90% Christian that was wiped out, because they are so set on saying that everyone is not Christian and is being punished.

But as usual there is a focus on the extremist clerics. Of course the fact that most clerics don't make these statements is probably ignored because the aim as usual is to paint the Middle East as a society that is hostile and hateful.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I have also heard the pastor of First Baptist Woodstock http://www.fbcw.org where I heard Falwell preach say on many occasions that he wished and regularly prayed that God would bankrupt our nation through whatever means necessary to get people to turn to God.

Poverty suffering, and despair, all for the LORD.

How exactly is this any different that a firefighter who sets a building on fire so he can be the "hero" who puts it out?

 

[twosid]

Poverty suffering, and despair, all for the LORD.

How exactly is this any different that a firefighter who sets a building on fire so he can be the "hero" who puts it out?

exactly

 

[jameseb]

But as usual there is a focus on the extremist clerics.

As opposed to the focus on Falwell? And when extremist clerics are recruiting young children to blow themselves up after being indoctrinated with hate, yes, it obviously should be a focus of some discussion.

Of course the fact that most clerics don't make these statements is probably ignored because the aim as usual is to paint the Middle East as a society that is hostile and hateful.

So anyone discussing a very serious problem throughout the Muslim world simply must be doing so because they feel "hostile" and "hateful?" I hardly think that is a fair assessment. I suppose that applies equally to the Bush and America-bashing we see posted ad naseum throughout this forum? It certainly outweighs any discussion on extreme Muslim clerics.... so by your assessment, are those people talking about the wrongs of Bush "hostile" and "hateful" too?

It can't be had both ways.

This is a serious issue... even addressed by many in the Muslim world. But I suppose they are just self-haters though.....

 

[The Shredder]

As opposed to the focus on Falwell? And when extremist clerics are recruiting young children to blow themselves up after being indoctrinated with hate, yes, it obviously should be a focus of some discussion.



So anyone discussing a very serious problem throughout the Muslim world simply must be doing so because they feel "hostile" and "hateful?" I hardly think that is a fair assessment. I suppose that applies equally to the Bush and America-bashing we see posted ad naseum throughout this forum? It certainly outweighs any discussion on extreme Muslim clerics.... so by your assessment, are those people talking about the wrongs of Bush "hostile" and "hateful" too?

It can't be had both ways.

This is a serious issue... even addressed by many in the Muslim world. But I suppose they are just self-haters though.....

I'm am talking about people focusing on extremist clerics and then treating this as if it speaks for the entire Muslim world. Of course it's a problem when extremist Muslims convince people to take part in suicide attacks, but it also is a problem when you have people like Falwell utlizing their extremist views to carry out a religious agenda. When people speak of Falwell, they don't label his views as all Christians. But when people talk about Islam, they usually blanket all Muslims as having these views. They make it seems as if Muslims in X country, or members of the Nation of Islam are all lumped together because they are Muslim. It would be like putting the Pope and Jerry Falwell into the same bucket, when they clearly are not.

I'm not saying any criticism of problems in the Muslim world is racist, but I think it's clear from this thread topic that that's what they are doing, attributing a problem to the entire Muslim community. But then again I don't think the problem is a Muslim problem, I think it's a problem with religious extremism.

I feel it is a bit more racist when people try to pare groups into separate sects like, "They need to police themselves," "Where is the Muslim outcry," etc. Many people make those statements. I think it would be like saying during WWII, "Look at all those white people just killing each other." (in reference to the European theater).

 

[jameseb]

I'm am talking about people focusing on extremist clerics and then treating this as if it speaks for the entire Muslim world.

That wasn't stated in the OP, nor in my post you had quoted and addressed.

Of course it's a problem when extremist Muslims convince people to take part in suicide attacks, but it also is a problem when you have people like Falwell utlizing their extremist views to carry out a religious agenda.

See, again, the focus shifts back to Falwell who is not mentioned at all in the OP, nor does he represent hundreds, if not thousands, of religious leaders calling for the death of Christians and Americans. Comparing Falwell with a fanatic imam who recruits children to die for Allah are two very, very different issues.

When people speak of Falwell, they don't label his views as all Christians. But when people talk about Islam, they usually blanket all Muslims as having these views. They make it seems as if Muslims in X country, or members of the Nation of Islam are all lumped together because they are Muslim. It would be like putting the Pope and Jerry Falwell into the same bucket, when they clearly are not.

On the contrary, I think its members seeing any topic that has to do with Islam and then jump into the fray and automatically assume that the intent of the thread is to blast an entire religion or people. Regardless, of course you're going to find critical analysis of Islam on a Christian site, but what you're describing hasn't taken place in this thread. It was simply assumed that was the intent of it. Christians shouldn't have to apologize or be cowed for discussing Islam here if they so wish. Again though, the article was referring to extremist imams. This is a serious problem in the Islamic world.

I'm not saying any criticism of problems in the Muslim world is racist, but I think it's clear from this thread topic that that's what they are doing, attributing a problem to the entire Muslim community. But then again I don't think the problem is a Muslim problem, I think it's a problem with religious extremism.

Yes, its a problem with religious extremism.... the problem is that it is so very pervasive in the Islamic world. That, of course, is going to raise eye brows and illicit discussion. That does not mean it is born of "hatred."

I feel it is a bit more racist when people try to pare groups into separate sects like, "They need to police themselves," "Where is the Muslim outcry," etc. Many people make those statements. I think it would be like saying during WWII, "Look at all those white people just killing each other." (in reference to the European theater).

If one is to refer to an issue that is regional and/or religious specific, one simply has to have some way to reference it. It would be PC gone awry if it was taboo to say "Islamic extremists in the Middle East are a growing problem in the world today."

Having said this all, I understand and appreciate your remarks. I just don't believe that this thread was intended to condemn a whole race or religion out of "hate." Discussion of this topic is relevant given the world today. Even a critical look at Islam is warranted as well.

 

[praying]

Lord, but I hate it when people presume to undertand the whys and hows of God. People need to stop endowing their creator with their own prejudices.

Isn't that the truth so many presume to know the mind of God.

 

[Nathan Poe]

At least he apologized for such an absured remark,

A completely sincere and uncoerced apology, of course.

but how many imams across Arabia and in "Palestine" are apologizing for saying hundreds of thousands died because of Christianity?

How many are under any pressure to?

 

[eldermike]

See, again, the focus shifts back to Falwell who is not mentioned at all in the OP, nor does he represent hundreds, if not thousands, of religious leaders calling for the death of Christians and Americans. Comparing Falwell with a fanatic imam who recruits children to die for Allah are two very, very different issues.

How could it be more clear?

 

[jameseb]

A completely sincere and uncoerced apology, of course.

Personally, I wouldn't know.... nor does anyone else here.

How many are under any pressure to?

Ahhh.... Bingo!

 

[Nathan Poe]

Personally, I wouldn't know.... nor does anyone else here.

I think we can look at Falwell's history of foot-in-mouth fiascos, observe the timing between the massive public fallout and his hasty apology, use just a teensy bit more common sense than, say, a sack of doorknobs, and come to an educated guess as to Falwell's motivations, now wouldn't you agree?

Ahhh.... Bingo!

Bingo? Many of the areas in question are theocracies in practice, if not in law. Who exactly is going to speak out against the religious leaders?

 

[jameseb]

I think we can look at Falwell's history of foot-in-mouth fiascos, observe the timing between the massive public fallout and his hasty apology, use just a teensy bit more common sense than, say, a sack of doorknobs, and come to an educated guess as to Falwell's motivations, now wouldn't you agree?

I just love how this discussion of radical Islamic extremists has continued to focus on Falwell. Can we stick to the topic please? And no, we can divine Falwell's intentions or motivations. You can't, I can't, Adam Ant can't either. Regardless, it has absolutely zero to do with the OP.

Bingo? Many of the areas in question are theocracies in practice, if not in law. Who exactly is going to speak out against the religious leaders?

People of conscious perhaps? Many of them speak up... it happens all the time... even in countries ruled by Islamic law. Iran ring a bell?

 

[ClaireZ]

At least he apologized for such an absured remark, but how many imams across Arabia and in "Palestine" are apologizing for saying hundreds of thousands died because of Christianity?

We have a right to be critical of Falwell. He is a man who speaks his convictions clearly, but often it seems without Christian Love. He wants to take this country back for God, and have everyone live by his standards. But don't we all in a way?

I believe the rain falls on the just and the unjust, and that sometimes no good deed goes unpunished. Natural Disasters just happen. Look at poor California right now, or Florida this summer, with hurricane after hurricane.

I wish we could all be tolerant of each other and think before we speak, and regard all people of the world as precious, but that ain't likely to happen anytime soon. The difference is I don't believe any disasters are caused because others don't feel the same.

What Falwell said was wrong, but it did mirror his true beliefs. What the Islamics leaders said was wrong, but look at how much worse:


"In Saudi Arabia, one of last year's measures to counter mosque-generated violence was a ban on imam's using the word "jihad," or holy warrior. But the content hadn't changed much without the banned word. Saudi cleric 'Aed Al-Qarni told the worshippers, "Throats must be slit and skulls must be shattered. This is the path to victory." He was reacting to the death of a brother "killed by the brothers of apes and pigs, the murderers of the prophets." In case there was any doubt, he was referring to the Jews of Israel. "

This is not only insensitive and wrong like Falwell, this is a call to hateful, violent action. If the people will not censor them, as we did Falwell, then their governments must censor them, or we will have their followers committing more attrocites, which will lead to a more dangerous, hateful world.

 

[AMaximus]

Well, Falwell doesn't speak for all Christians just like I'm hoping Yasser Arafat didn't speak for all Muslims. In the end...follow the money...then we'll see peoples true intentions.

 

[rahma]

an important aspect of my first post was missed:

But then again, both the Bible and the Qur'an have stories of God punishing people for many sins, be it through a flood or fire raining from heaven, or whatnot. Why shouldn't people relate natural disastors to what is found in their holy books?

If the bible (quran) clearly shows that God punished sinners in the past with natural disastors, then why should this one be any different?