The works that Paul and the Apostles did for Salvation.

[fhansen]

The love that God requires of man is one of will. And this love is a deliberate attitude whereas circumstances and changes in situations do not impact ones actions. Remember Jesus walked this earth as a man and as human nature He did not want to die but he was obedient to the will of God even until death. The following verses show that Jesus dying on the cross was God’s will.

Matthews (26:36) Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.

(37) And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.

(38) Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

(39) And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

God in His plan for the salvation of man had decided to offer Jesus as a sacrifice. Remember the love God requires is based on obedience not feeling or circumstances. Verse (39) lets you know that Jesus did not feel like or want to participate in the event which was to occur and that was His crucifixion. Now certainly if there were ever a situation or circumstance that could cause an individual to be disobedient it would be the facing of ones own death. But as stated earlier to love God means to be obedient regardless of ones feeling or circumstances. And Jesus demonstrated that love by being obedient to the will of the Father even tho it meant Him dying.

Ok, and what I'm saying is that the command to love, or any other command, wasn't fulfillable with the old covenant as it is with the new. Jesus did more than win forgiveness of past sin; He won reconciliation between man and God resulting in a nearness to or fellowship with Him that, itself, is the basis and source of righteousness for man and is the font of obedience for him. Man's first "job", therefore, his first "right step", is to turn to Him in his need before trying to impress Him with works of the law or holiness or anything else. Love comes from Him, not from ourselves and our efforts at proving it. Yes, we must want it-hunger and thirst for it, even, but man desparately needs God first above all else; that's the bottom line of our faith-and the reason that the first few commandments are what they are, incidentally. He's our source, our strength, our goodness, our righteousness.

I'm only meaning to maintain the right order of things here. The command, "Thou shalt love", is right and good, as are all God's commands; but we just need Him first in order to actually fuflill it. That's a primary difference between the old and new covenants-and the reason that the law could not bring about the righteousness that it points to-because we don't have righteousness on our own, apart from Him. It's not either/or, but both/and: a vital "partnership" between man and God with Him at the head. Apart from that relationship the law cannot accomplish the righteousness that it correctly points to.

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." Rom 3:20

Why/how does the law make us conscious of our sin? Because as fallen, unreconciled beings we'll inevitably fail to fulfill its commands!

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22

God, alone, can justify man IOW.
"I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts." Jer 31:33

With Him all things are possible, including the ability to fulfill His law. The change that must first be accomplished in man is echoed throughout the new testament, where, for example, Jesus tells the Pharisees in Matt 23:26,
"First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean."

Or, in Matt 5, the Sermon on the Mount, where He tells us that we're still guilty of murder if we have anger in our hearts, or guilty of adultery if we lust, etc. All good fruit comes only as we enter and remain in Him (John 15). Some have come to believe that we're no longer under obligation to be righteous, to obey the commandments. They are wrong; God didn't create us to be sinners after all. We just cannot do it apart from Him. So the most basic offense against God is disobedonce of Him-to deny His authority as God and that's the unjust state of rebellion and alienation that we're all born into. To the exstent that we draw near to Him our righteousness will blossom.
"Apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5). That's the essence of the new covenant.

Anyway, the virtue of love is both a gift of grace-and a human choice to accept, embrace, express, and grow in that gift.

 

[Bro.T]

Ok, and what I'm saying is that the command to love, or any other command, wasn't fulfillable with the old covenant as it is with the new. Jesus did more than win forgiveness of past sin; He won reconciliation between man and God resulting in a nearness to or fellowship with Him that, itself, is the basis and source of righteousness for man and is the font of obedience for him. Man's first "job", therefore, his first "right step", is to turn to Him in his need before trying to impress Him with works of the law or holiness or anything else. Love comes from Him, not from ourselves and our efforts at proving it. Yes, we must want it-hunger and thirst for it, even, but man desparately needs God first above all else; that's the bottom line of our faith-and the reason that the first few commandments are what they are, incidentally. He's our source, our strength, our goodness, our righteousness.

I'm only meaning to maintain the right order of things here. The command, "Thou shalt love", is right and good, as are all God's commands; but we just need Him first in order to actually fuflill it. That's a primary difference between the old and new covenants-and the reason that the law could not bring about the righteousness that it points to-because we don't have righteousness on our own, apart from Him. It's not either/or, but both/and: a vital "partnership" between man and God with Him at the head. Apart from that relationship the law cannot accomplish the righteousness that it correctly points to.

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." Rom 3:20

Why/how does the law make us conscious of our sin? Because as fallen, unreconciled beings we'll inevitably fail to fulfill its commands!

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22

God, alone, can justify man IOW.
"I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts." Jer 31:33

With Him all things are possible, including the ability to fulfill His law. The change that must first be accomplished in man is echoed throughout the new testament, where, for example, Jesus tells the Pharisees in Matt 23:26,
"First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean."

Or, in Matt 5, the Sermon on the Mount, where He tells us that we're still guilty of murder if we have anger in our hearts, or guilty of adultery if we lust, etc. All good fruit comes only as we enter and remain in Him (John 15). Some have come to believe that we're no longer under obligation to be righteous, to obey the commandments. They are wrong; God didn't create us to be sinners after all. We just cannot do it apart from Him. So the most basic offense against God is disobedonce of Him-to deny His authority as God and that's the unjust state of rebellion and alienation that we're all born into. To the exstent that we draw near to Him our righteousness will blossom.
"Apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5). That's the essence of the new covenant.

Anyway, the virtue of love is both a gift of grace-and a human choice to accept, embrace, express, and grow in that gift.

You are quoting verses that talks about the animal sacrificial laws and then another aspect you are talking about the commandments, so it's confusion in your writing. Now Jeremiah 31:33 is talking about the commandments. When you quoted Paul speaking about the works of the laws, that's talking about the animal Sacrificial laws.

For example......There's two different laws Paul talks about in this chapter. Let's take a look at Roman 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. This is true, because Jesus says in John 4: 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Jesus also say in John 6: 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. So walking in the spirit is the word of God.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Now, what law is this Paul talking about. This law is animal sacrificial law, not the royal law (Ten Commandments, statutes and Judgement). Paul explained this law in; (Heb.10:1, 9-10,18,26-27) (v.1) For the law (what law, the law of animal sacrifice?) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (v.9) Then said he, (Jesus) Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first that he may establish the second. (v.10) By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments. (v.18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. In other words, no more animals are going to die for your sins. (v.26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

Now do we understand what’s being said here? If you sin willfully after you have knowledge of what the truth is, no more animals are going to die for you. (v.27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Now if you are being deceived into believing that once you are under God’s grace you no longer have to keep his commandments, all you have to look forward to is the day of judgement and the lake of fire (fiery indignation).

Now, Let's get back to Romans 8: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So what is the righteousness of the law? Let allow Paul to tell us in Paul said in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET. Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law. (v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

The Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week, it is consider walking in the spirit because its part of the law (commandments), to be carnally minded is walk contrary to the law of righteousness.

 

[fhansen]

For example......There's two different laws Paul talks about in this chapter. Let's take a look at Roman 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. This is true, because Jesus says in John 4: 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Jesus also say in John 6: 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. So walking in the spirit is the word of God.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Now, what law is this Paul talking about. This law is animal sacrificial law, not the royal law (Ten Commandments, statutes and Judgement).

And this is where you error. Continue to follow chap 8 down and we can see that, again, he's speaking of the moral law.
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

The law, as already agreed to, is not the problem; man is the problem. Sin has separated man from God since Eden. The resolution to this problem is more than forgiveness of sin, but the overcoming of sin, which therefore releases man from the condemnation of sin.

Why does man sin? Man sins to the extent that he’s not subjugated to God in a union bound by love, a union that man was made for, a union which constitutes his created destiny, his purpose, and his righteousness. Apart from that union man exists in a state of chaos, disorder, injustice, falsehood. So Jesus came not only to forgive and take away sins, but to overcome them in us by reconciling us with God. Not just a declared or forensic reconciliation but a true restoration of fellowship or communion with Him which is to begin here and to be fully completed and consummated in the next life..

So Paul does mean to say that justification cannot come by the moral law. One cannot fulfill the law while under the law. One can only fulfill the law while under grace, united with God. That’s what it means to live by the Spirit. And the verses I quoted are all consistent with that. Again, the purpose of the law is to disclose and convict us of sin. Rom 7:13 continues, in reference to the ten commandments:
"Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful."

Righteousness is a work of grace, of God, within us, as we turn to Him in faith, and this righteousness, while apart from the law, is consistent with the law because the law attests to it. And this is why Rom 2:13 can say:
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."

As far as the Sabbath goes, I'll let the early church speak as to how that command is fulfilled in Spirit:
"Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death." St Ignatious of Antioch ca 100 AD

 

[Bro.T]

And this is where you error. Continue to follow chap 8 down and we can see that, again, he's speaking of the moral law.
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

The law, as already agreed to, is not the problem; man is the problem. Sin has separated man from God since Eden. The resolution to this problem is more than forgiveness of sin, but the overcoming of sin, which therefore releases man from the condemnation of sin.

Why does man sin? Man sins to the extent that he’s not subjugated to God in a union bound by love, a union that man was made for, a union which constitutes his created destiny, his purpose, and his righteousness. Apart from that union man exists in a state of chaos, disorder, injustice, falsehood. So Jesus came not only to forgive and take away sins, but to overcome them in us by reconciling us with God. Not just a declared or forensic reconciliation but a true restoration of fellowship or communion with Him which is to begin here and to be fully completed and consummated in the next life..

So Paul does mean to say that justification cannot come by the moral law. One cannot fulfill the law while under the law. One can only fulfill the law while under grace, united with God. That’s what it means to live by the Spirit. And the verses I quoted are all consistent with that. Again, the purpose of the law is to disclose and convict us of sin. Rom 7:13 continues, in reference to the ten commandments:
"Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful."

Righteousness is a work of grace, of God, within us, as we turn to Him in faith, and this righteousness, while apart from the law, is consistent with the law because the law attests to it. And this is why Rom 2:13 can say:
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."

As far as the Sabbath goes, I'll let the early church speak as to how that command is fulfilled in Spirit:
"Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death." St Ignatious of Antioch ca 100 AD

Pauls says in (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. (See exodus 20: 1-17)

This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: And in keeping of them there is great reward. (Psalm 19: 7-11)

So if you say that you know God, but you don’t keep his commandments, lets see what the Lord had specially written for you.

(1John 2:3-4) (v.3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (v.4) he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[fhansen]

Pauls says in (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. (See exodus 20: 1-17)

This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: And in keeping of them there is great reward. (Psalm 19: 7-11)

So if you say that you know God, but you don’t keep his commandments, lets see what the Lord had specially written for you.

(1John 2:3-4) (v.3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (v.4) he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Well, ok-we've been agreeing on that point so far. The problem, as I see it, is that in the old covenant the means to achieve this obedience was not available to any universal degree for mankind. The new covenant, in the "fullness of time", brought with it the reconciliation that makes that obedience, that righteousness, that love, possible. Jesus demonstrates that love and then beckons us to come, and join Him in it. And He'll provide the grace to do just that.
"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

It's just that it's a both/and effort, with God initiating and enabling, and us responding by our willingness to obey, to cooperate with Him-or not. The old covenant was not revoked, but made obsolete by a new and better covenant that could actually accomplish the righteousness in man, by virtue of union with God, that the old could not. Then man can begin to fulifll the law the right way, by love.

 

[Bro.T]

Well, ok-we've been agreeing on that point so far. The problem, as I see it, is that in the old covenant the means to achieve this obedience was not available to any universal degree for mankind. The new covenant, in the "fullness of time", brought with it the reconciliation that makes that obedience, that righteousness, that love, possible. Jesus demonstrates that love and then beckons us to come, and join Him in it. And He'll provide the grace to do just that.
"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

It's just that it's a both/and effort, with God initiating and enabling, and us responding by our willingness to obey, to cooperate with Him-or not. The old covenant was not revoked, but made obsolete by a new and better covenant that could actually accomplish the righteousness in man, by virtue of union with God, that the old could not. Then man can begin to fulifll the law the right way, by love.

Well, according the Bible the only difference between the old and new covenant, is animal Sacrificial laws and priest hood laws. If Jesus didn't come and die or become a sin offering for mankind, all of mankind would have been put in the lake of fire, including, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, etc. Paul says in Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. This is talking about the first and second death. In the Old testament no matter how good you where or righteous you couldn't get away from that lake of Fire, which is the second death. Paul says in Roman 5: 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So again the Old testament, even if you repent, you was still headed for the second death, this what a lot of Christians don't understand the importance of Jesus coming. So now when you repent and come under the blood of Jesus now (today), you also have the gift of the Holy Ghost. "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, "repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38).

 

[Bro.T]

Hear the word of the Lord, ye children of Israel: For the Lord hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land." (Hosea 4:1)

Due to this lack of knowledge world wide, man is on the brink of destruction, because of his transgression against God. The ability to think, and to know good from evil is the only thing that separates man from beast. Man has taken this gift from God for granted, and has chosen evil over good.

Let us take a look through the scriptures, and see what has befallen man because of his lack of knowledge of the word of God. (Hosea 4:6-7) " My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: Because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me. Seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. (7th verse) As they increased, so they sinned against me; therefore I will change their glory into shame." From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, (I Timothy 1:6-8)
Notice what Paul says, "we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully. Knowing this that the law is not made for a righteous man." Why isn't the law for the righteous? If we are righteous we are keeping the law.

Remember the Biblical definition of sin is; whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4) So the law is for whom? For the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for men stealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.

 

[fhansen]

Well, according the Bible the only difference between the old and new covenant, is animal Sacrificial laws and priest hood laws. If Jesus didn't come and die or become a sin offering for mankind, all of mankind would have been put in the lake of fire, including, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, etc. Paul says in Romans 5:14

Then Peter said unto them, "repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38).

If Jesus didn't come and die for mankind, we would not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. And that reception is the union with God that most prominently marks the new covenant. Because disunion with God is our death. And that union, again, is the only source of true righteousness for man and therefore of the overcoming of the sin that separates us from Him-and condemns us to death.

 

[Bro.T]

If Jesus didn't come and die for mankind, we would not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. And that reception is the union with God that most prominently marks the new covenant. Because disunion with God is our death. And that union, again, is the only source of true righteousness for man and therefore of the overcoming of the sin that separates us from Him-and condemns us to death.

Well, the Bible is not saying that if Jesus didn't come and die for mankind, we would not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. What you have to understand is that the Holy Ghost always been on the seen, even in the old testament. Because you have to remember God is not a respect of person. for there is no respect of persons with God. (Romans 2:11) So let's take a look and see, let's go into 2 Peter 1: 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

So Peter is even telling us that we have a more sure word of prophecy, which is the Old Testament, but that prophecy came by man that was move by the Holy Ghost. Now the Holy Ghost still works the same why, but you have get baptize in the name of Jesus, because Jesus is our intercessor. Wherein we come under the blood of Jesus, but in the old testament we where under the blood bull and goats, which can never take a away sin.

Paul explained this in; (Hebrews 10: (v.1) For the law (what law, the law of animal sacrifice?) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (v.9) Then said he, (Jesus) Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first that he may establish the second. (v.10) By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

(v.18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. In other words, no more animals are going to die for your sins. (20) by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (21) and having an high priest over the house of God; (v.26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

Now do we understand what’s being said here? If you sin willfully after you have knowledge of what the truth is, no more animals are going to die for you. (v.27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

 

[fhansen]

Well, the Bible is not saying that if Jesus didn't come and die for mankind, we would not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. What you have to understand is that the Holy Ghost always been on the seen, even in the old testament. Because you have to remember God is not a respect of person. for there is no respect of persons with God. (Romans 2:11) So let's take a look and see, let's go into 2 Peter 1: 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

So Peter is even telling us that we have a more sure word of prophecy, which is the Old Testament, but that prophecy came by man that was move by the Holy Ghost. Now the Holy Ghost still works the same why, but you have get baptize in the name of Jesus, because Jesus is our intercessor. Wherein we come under the blood of Jesus, but in the old testament we where under the blood bull and goats, which can never take a away sin.

Paul explained this in; (Hebrews 10: (v.1) For the law (what law, the law of animal sacrifice?) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (v.9) Then said he, (Jesus) Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first that he may establish the second. (v.10) By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

(v.18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. In other words, no more animals are going to die for your sins. (20) by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (21) and having an high priest over the house of God; (v.26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

Now do we understand what’s being said here? If you sin willfully after you have knowledge of what the truth is, no more animals are going to die for you. (v.27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Well, of course the Holy Ghost has been around- eternally- and has been operating for the benefit of man since our beginning. But the indwelling of the Trinity, the life of grace for all, is a new event arising from the sacrifice of Christ which established the NC. And so this brings about more than forgiveness of sin, but also, as the veil was torn, we now have direct access to God. Jesus is the way to God. And that fellowship with Him, again, is the means to overcoming future sin now that we know the truth. The message: man cannot overcome the sin that separates him from God without being reconciled with God first of all.

“Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” Rom 5:1-2

“Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.” Rom 5:9-10

“For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Rom 5:17.

That gift of rightounessness is not an imputed righteousness, but a real, actual one.

“For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:19-21

Grace enables true rightounessnes, the “righteousness of God” to reign in us now, leading to eternal life (Rokm 6:. Except for that grace, that life of God within us, we have no life, and no authentic righteousness with which to obey the law. I’m only saying that this direct union with God, which begins here on earth as we come to know Him but is only finally complete in the next life, is part and parcel of the New Covenant.

“For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” 1 Cor 13:12.

Jesus came to do more than forgive and remit the sin/injustice that resulted in humanity from Adam’s trespass, but to make a major change in humanity, to restore us to the justice/righteousness which Adam dismissed and forfeited.

“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” Jer 31:33-34

Righteousness comes from God, alone, as we enter this new reconciled relationship with Him via faith. We cannot do it apart from Him, just because we know we should. “Knowing we should” is the purpose of the moral law to begin with-but man fails at obedience whether or not he knows what he should do.

“Apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5

I'm only saying that if we don’t emphasize that union, we lose sight of the main reason Jesus came. It's what man was made for.

 

[concretecamper]

First Reading at Mass this Sunday.

Sir 15:15-20
If you choose you can keep the commandments, they will save you;
if you trust in God, you too shall live;
he has set before you fire and water
to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, good and evil, whichever he chooses shall be given him. Immense is the wisdom of the Lord; he is mighty in power, and all-seeing. The eyes of God are on those who fear him; he understands man's every deed. No one does he command to act unjustly, to none does he give license to sin.

 

[fhansen]

First Reading at Mass this Sunday.

Sir 15:15-20
If you choose you can keep the commandments, they will save you;
if you trust in God, you too shall live;
he has set before you fire and water
to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, good and evil, whichever he chooses shall be given him. Immense is the wisdom of the Lord; he is mighty in power, and all-seeing. The eyes of God are on those who fear him; he understands man's every deed. No one does he command to act unjustly, to none does he give license to sin.

Yes, we need only turn to Him in faith, and now together, by the Spirit, remaining in Him, true obedience comes.

 

[Bro.T]

Well, of course the Holy Ghost has been around- eternally- and has been operating for the benefit of man since our beginning. But the indwelling of the Trinity, the life of grace for all, is a new event arising from the sacrifice of Christ which established the NC. And so this brings about more than forgiveness of sin, but also, as the veil was torn, we now have direct access to God. Jesus is the way to God. And that fellowship with Him, again, is the means to overcoming future sin now that we know the truth. The message: man cannot overcome the sin that separates him from God without being reconciled with God first of all.

“Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” Rom 5:1-2

“Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.” Rom 5:9-10

“For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Rom 5:17.

That gift of rightounessness is not an imputed righteousness, but a real, actual one.

“For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:19-21

Grace enables true rightounessnes, the “righteousness of God” to reign in us now, leading to eternal life (Rokm 6:. Except for that grace, that life of God within us, we have no life, and no authentic righteousness with which to obey the law. I’m only saying that this direct union with God, which begins here on earth as we come to know Him but is only finally complete in the next life, is part and parcel of the New Covenant.

“For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” 1 Cor 13:12.

Jesus came to do more than forgive and remit the sin/injustice that resulted in humanity from Adam’s trespass, but to make a major change in humanity, to restore us to the justice/righteousness which Adam dismissed and forfeited.

“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” Jer 31:33-34

Righteousness comes from God, alone, as we enter this new reconciled relationship with Him via faith. We cannot do it apart from Him, just because we know we should. “Knowing we should” is the purpose of the moral law to begin with-but man fails at obedience whether or not he knows what he should do.

“Apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5

I'm only saying that if we don’t emphasize that union, we lose sight of the main reason Jesus came. It's what man was made for.

I don't disagree with the verses, but I'm not sure what you mean when you say trinity, I only stick with Bible words, because I can't find trinity in the book. If Jesus didn't come and die or become a sin offering for mankind, all of mankind would have been put in the lake of fire, including, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, etc. Paul says in Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. This is talking about the first and second death. I notice on this forum, most people don't talk about the second death, and that's the most important death to worry about. In the Old testament no matter how good you where or righteous you couldn't get away from that lake of Fire, which is the second death. Paul says in Roman 5: 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


What people don't understand is that in the Old testament, even if you repent, you was still headed for the second death, this what a lot of Christians don't understand the importance of Jesus coming. So now when you repent and come under the blood of Jesus now (today), you also have the gift of the Holy Ghost. "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, "repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38).

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. See, Adam brought both death. This is why the atonement was practice in Leviticus 16 and so important. They had to live in hopes of what we living in now, because Christ already came and died in our day. But in their time, they sins was always on them including the second death. That's why Paul says in Hebrew 10: For the law (what law, the law of animal sacrifice?) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. Because animal can't take away sins. The Lord had Moses to use two scapegoats because they were practicing on what Jesus had to actually go through to remove the sins off of mankind for righteous.

Now, Paul says in Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Let's take a look in Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? This is hard for most people to understand this, because people are not taught about the second death, and when they see the word death in the Bible, they looking at it as the first death most of the time. But let's get a verse out the Bible thats clean cut in Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Meaning that all the Prophets and righteous people back then, would have been in the second death. Jesus brought grace when he came in the flesh, but example of grace was in the days of Noah.

 

[fhansen]

I don't disagree with the verses, but I'm not sure what you mean when you say trinity, I only stick with Bible words, because I can't find trinity in the book.

It's just a word, of course, sometimes used to denote the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, all who are said to indwell man as we enter fellowship with God through faith.

 

[peacefulseeker]

All I can say is thst Paul was critical to the expansion and interest in Christianity.

 

[Bro.T]

It's just a word, of course, sometimes used to denote the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, all who are said to indwell man as we enter fellowship with God through faith.

That's interesting how that word have gotten so big, it remind me what is written in Revelation 22:
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

 

[fhansen]

That's interesting how that word have gotten so big, it remind me what is written in Revelation 22:
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Its also interesting how misunderstood the book often is-with plausible conflicting interpretations. It's as if, often with not much to go on, people just pick it up, read it, take their best-guess and call it good.

 

[Bro.T]

Its also interesting how misunderstood the book often is-with plausible conflicting interpretations. It's as if, often with not much to go on, people just pick it up, read it, take their best-guess and call it good.

Well, it's also written in the old testament as well, not to add or take away from the word. But the reason why the lord had it written because of the wicketness in people. In the scriptures it's written in Proverbs 4: 7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: And with all thy getting get understanding.

So take a look at what we dealing with and why the lord wants his word air tight. Let's go into Ephesians 6: 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

So this is the reason why we keep the word air tight, but most people will not understand this.

 

[fhansen]

Well, it's also written in the old testament as well, not to add or take away from the word. But the reason why the lord had it written because of the wicketness in people. In the scriptures it's written in Proverbs 4: 7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: And with all thy getting get understanding.

Yep, no one can ever have too much of that stuff. Or too much understanding of God's word, in order to keep it airtight.