The works that Paul and the Apostles did for Salvation.

[Bro.T]

Alright. And what I'm saying, tho, is that if we love God, and neighbor, we are fulfilling/obeying His commandments-already. And love works, by its nature, for the good of others. These aren't works of the law, and against love there is no law. We must work, as we must love.

Well, sounds a little of what Paul says in (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. (See exodus 20: 1-17)

This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: And in keeping of them there is great reward. (Psalm 19: 7-11)

 

[fhansen]

Well, sounds a little of what Paul says in (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. (See exodus 20: 1-17)

This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: And in keeping of them there is great reward. (Psalm 19: 7-11)

I think our main "job" is to find out how to fulfill the law by loving; then our justice/righteousness would be complete, perfected. And the only way to do that is to turn to God, in faith, which is to recognize and make Him our God again. Then He, with His righteousness, begins to do the work in us that we could not accomplish on our own -based on the law alone. That union with God is the basic diference between the old and new covenants.

"For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second. But God found fault with the people and said:"

"I will put My laws in their minds
and inscribe them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
and they will be My people.
No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother,
saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest." Heb 8:7-8, 10-11

Either way, yes, we must obey, and love obeys by its nature. That's God's intention for man.

 

[Bro.T]

I think our main "job" is to find out how to fulfill the law by loving; then our justice/righteousness would be complete, perfected. And the only way to do that is to turn to God, in faith, which is to recognize and make Him our God again. Then He, with His righteousness, begins to do the work in us that we could not accomplish on our own -based on the law alone. That union with God is the basic diference between the old and new covenants.

"For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second. But God found fault with the people and said:"

"I will put My laws in their minds
and inscribe them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
and they will be My people.
No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother,
saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest." Heb 8:7-8, 10-11

Either way, yes, we must obey, and love obeys by its nature. That's God's intention for man.

When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments.

Paul explained this in; (Hebrews 10: (v.1) For the law (what law, the law of animal sacrifice?) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (v.9) Then said he, (Jesus) Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first that he may establish the second. (v.10) By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The point that's not understood in most cases is we all have sin, but until Jesus came, there was no way of getting out from under your sins. So God institute a Priesthood and laws that went with the priesthood to control the sinning, and so the Lord use animal Sacrificial laws, even though it could not remove sins.

(v.18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. In other words, no more animals are going to die for your sins. (20) by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (21) and having an high priest over the house of God; (v.26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

Now do we understand what’s being said here? If you sin willfully after you have knowledge of what the truth is, no more animals are going to die for you. (v.27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Now if you are being deceived into believing that once you are under God’s grace you no longer have to keep his commandments, all you have to look forward to is the day of judgement and the lake of fire (fiery indignation).

 

[The Liturgist]

In the context of the whole letter, Heb 10:26 is referring to the same spiritual condition discussed in Heb 6:4-8, the sin of apostasy.



Heb 10:26 is not referring to law keeping, but to apostasy; i.e., abandoning the faith.



Note that Paul sums up the law and whatever other commandment there may be in one simple law: love your neighbor as yourself.
Love of God and love of neighbor are all you have to do to keep all the Ten Commandments.



And in loving God and neighbor as yourself, you are thereby keeping all God's Ten Commandments.



The NT makes clear that the ceremonial laws (sacrifices, defilements, cleansings, feasts, etc.) are abolished in the NT (Eph 2:15, Ro 14:20).


The NT makes clear (Ro 13:9) that the above laws are kept simply by loving your neighbor.

Indeed, this is entirely correct.

 

[The Liturgist]

I think our main "job" is to find out how to fulfill the law by loving; then our justice/righteousness would be complete, perfected. And the only way to do that is to turn to God, in faith, which is to recognize and make Him our God again. Then He, with His righteousness, begins to do the work in us that we could not accomplish on our own -based on the law alone. That union with God is the basic diference between the old and new covenants.

"For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second. But God found fault with the people and said:"

"I will put My laws in their minds
and inscribe them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
and they will be My people.
No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother,
saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest." Heb 8:7-8, 10-11

Either way, yes, we must obey, and love obeys by its nature. That's God's intention for man.

Very good, I think you and @Clare73 have the right idea.

 

[fhansen]

Very good, I think you and @Clare73 have the right idea.

Uh oh.

 

[Bro.T]

The sacrificial law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Before we continue, we must clear one thing up. Are we justified by faith alone? Let's see. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31) What law is established? Certainly not the sacrificial law, we have seen above that it was added because of transgression until the Seed came (which was Christ). The Royal law to be established forever which are the Ten Lords commandments!

In keeping these Commandments of God and being in a world of sin, our faith have to be strong in Christ. Let's take a look at 1 Peter 1: 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

See the trial of your faith can be tuff, but we must hold fast, because Jesus say in Matthew 24: 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Some of these things are still going on today and some in the future, but take a look at what Jesus says in verse 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord.

 

[Clare73]

The sacrificial law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Before we continue, we must clear one thing up. Are we justified by faith alone? Let's see. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31)

We establish the law on its proper footing, as the means in the Holy Spirit of sanctification to holiness (Ro 6:16-19),
for "Without holiness, no one will see the Lord," (Heb 12:14),
not as the means to salvation/justification (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:28).

And then there is the revelation of the NT meaning of the law as simply love of God and neighbor as self (Ro 13:8-10).

What law is established? Certainly not the sacrificial law, we have seen above that it was added because of transgression until the Seed came (which was Christ). The Royal law to be established forever which are the Ten Lords commandments!

In keeping these Commandments of God and being in a world of sin, our faith have to be strong in Christ. Let's take a look at 1 Peter 1: 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

See the trial of your faith can be tuff, but we must hold fast, because Jesus say in Matthew 24: 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Some of these things are still going on today and some in the future, but take a look at what Jesus says in verse 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord.

 

[fhansen]

Paul explained this in; (Hebrews 10: (v.1) For the law (what law, the law of animal sacrifice?) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (v.9) Then said he, (Jesus) Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first that he may establish the second. (v.10) By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Ok, Christ’s sacrifice actually, finally accomplishes righteousness in man by not only remitting sin but by giving us the grace, the power of the Spirit, to overcome it now. By placing our faith in Him this grace becomes effective-working- in our lives. But no mere law-keeping, including keeping the ten commandments, means or guarantees righteousness or sinlessness in us. So regardless of who wrote Hebrews, Paul explains the difference in Phil 3:9:

“…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.”

Once it’s understood that this is a real righteousness that is given as a result of faith in Christ then we begin to see the difference between the old and new covenants more clearly IMO-and this is how the churches in the past have historically taught it.

“But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.” Rom 3:21-22

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” Rom 5:17

“You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” Rom 6:18

And then Paul can tell us in Rom 7 that even the ten commandments, listing several, right as they are, cannot effect the righteousness in us that they point to-they serve only to convict us of unrighteousness, of sin, in fact. Rom 8 continues on:

“For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:3-4, 12-14

Only God can make man righteous. We must turn to Him in faith-and remain in Him. If we turn back to the flesh, to persistent, grave sin, we’re not in Him, we’re no longer His children until and unless we have a change of heart-and turn back.

Paul objected to the idea that works of the law could make one just or righteous, and that applied to the whole law, while being "under the law". Being under grace, however, means that we can finally accomplish the obedience that the law calls for but could not accomplish. It all hinges on our being in a state of communion with God, which itself is the very basis and essence of justice/righteousness for man. It's what we were made for, and it's entered into by faith. .

 

[Bro.T]

Ok, Christ’s sacrifice actually, finally accomplishes righteousness in man by not only remitting sin but by giving us the grace, the power of the Spirit, to overcome it now. By placing our faith in Him this grace becomes effective-working- in our lives. But no mere law-keeping, including keeping the ten commandments, means or guarantees righteousness or sinlessness in us. So regardless of who wrote Hebrews, Paul explains the difference in Phil 3:9:

“…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.”

Once it’s understood that this is a real righteousness that is given as a result of faith in Christ then we begin to see the difference between the old and new covenants more clearly IMO-and this is how the churches in the past have historically taught it.

I believe you are miss understanding the word of God, and Paul writing. First let me say that God had Peter to clearly warn us about some of Paul’s writing. (2Peter:3:15-16) (v.15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (v.16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Now let us take heed to this warning, we can’t ignore all the bible and just concentrate on a hand full of verses out of the writings of Paul. Because some of Paul’s writing is hard to be understood.

The verses you are quoting are true but they are not referring to us having a sinless life, because Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin. What Paul is saying in Phil 3: 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

See when you keeping the Laws (Commandment) of God you lose that you may gain life in Christ. Its always the righteousness of God and not yours because you won't know what righteousness was, if God didn't tell you. Now Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past.

“But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.” Rom 3:21-22

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” Rom 5:17

“You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” Rom 6:18

And then Paul can tell us in Rom 7 that even the ten commandments, listing several, right as they are, cannot effect the righteousness in us that they point to-they serve only to convict us of unrighteousness, of sin, in fact. Rom 8 continues on:

“For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:3-4, 12-14

Only God can make man righteous. We must turn to Him in faith-and remain in Him. If we turn back to the flesh, to persistent, grave sin, we’re not in Him, we’re no longer His children until and unless we have a change of heart-and turn back.

Paul objected to the idea that works of the law could make one just or righteous, and that applied to the whole law, while being "under the law". Being under grace, however, means that we can finally accomplish the obedience that the law calls for but could not accomplish. It all hinges on our being in a state of communion with God, which itself is the very basis and essence of justice/righteousness for man. It's what we were made for, and it's entered into by faith. .

When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws. These laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Let us avoid this at all costs, seeking a better reward. Jesus will return real soon And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12).

 

[Bro.T]

We establish the law on its proper footing, as the means in the Holy Spirit of sanctification to holiness (Ro 6:16-19),
for "Without holiness, no one will see the Lord," (Heb 12:14),
not as the means to salvation/justification (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:28).

And then there is the revelation of the NT meaning of the law as simply love of God and neighbor as self (Ro 13:8-10).

A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

 

[Bro.T]

Ok, Christ’s sacrifice actually, finally accomplishes righteousness in man by not only remitting sin but by giving us the grace, the power of the Spirit, to overcome it now. By placing our faith in Him this grace becomes effective-working- in our lives. But no mere law-keeping, including keeping the ten commandments, means or guarantees righteousness or sinlessness in us. So regardless of who wrote Hebrews, Paul explains the difference in Phil 3:9:

“…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.”

Once it’s understood that this is a real righteousness that is given as a result of faith in Christ then we begin to see the difference between the old and new covenants more clearly IMO-and this is how the churches in the past have historically taught it.

“But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.” Rom 3:21-22

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” Rom 5:17

“You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” Rom 6:18

And then Paul can tell us in Rom 7 that even the ten commandments, listing several, right as they are, cannot effect the righteousness in us that they point to-they serve only to convict us of unrighteousness, of sin, in fact. Rom 8 continues on:

“For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:3-4, 12-14

Only God can make man righteous. We must turn to Him in faith-and remain in Him. If we turn back to the flesh, to persistent, grave sin, we’re not in Him, we’re no longer His children until and unless we have a change of heart-and turn back.

Paul objected to the idea that works of the law could make one just or righteous, and that applied to the whole law, while being "under the law". Being under grace, however, means that we can finally accomplish the obedience that the law calls for but could not accomplish. It all hinges on our being in a state of communion with God, which itself is the very basis and essence of justice/righteousness for man. It's what we were made for, and it's entered into by faith. .

 

[Bro.T]

Let's go to the Book of I Timothy chapter one and see if Paul kills the Lords commandments.

Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: (I Timothy 1:5)

What does he mean the end of the commandment is charity? What is charity? It means love fore mankind correct? Now take a look at these verses in the Book of Romans.

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:8-10)

Take heed to what Paul says, "love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love (which is charity) is the fulfilling of the law. Paul says, "If you LOVE your neighbor you will not, commit adultery, kill, steal, bear false witness nor covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Once again Paul is quoting from the books Moses! As a matter of fact Paul was quoting the Lord God, remember the Lord gave the Laws to Moses.

Take a look. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. (Exodus 20: 8-10, 13-17)

What do we see here? We see Paul is inline with the rest of the Bible. He is not trying to do away with the Lords commandments. It is the false prophets that do not read the entire book from Genesis to Revelation! They are trying to do away with the Lord's laws. Paul was well aware that the law was to be kept. This include the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week!

 

[fhansen]

Let's go to the Book of I Timothy chapter one and see if Paul kills the Lords commandments.

Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: (I Timothy 1:5)

What does he mean the end of the commandment is charity? What is charity? It means love fore mankind correct? Now take a look at these verses in the Book of Romans.

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:8-10)

Take heed to what Paul says, "love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love (which is charity) is the fulfilling of the law. Paul says, "If you LOVE your neighbor you will not, commit adultery, kill, steal, bear false witness nor covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Once again Paul is quoting from the books Moses! As a matter of fact Paul was quoting the Lord God, remember the Lord gave the Laws to Moses.

Take a look. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. (Exodus 20: 8-10, 13-17)

What do we see here? We see Paul is inline with the rest of the Bible. He is not trying to do away with the Lords commandments. It is the false prophets that do not read the entire book from Genesis to Revelation! They are trying to do away with the Lord's laws. Paul was well aware that the law was to be kept. This include the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week!

All right, for some reason you've got the idea that I think Paul and the new covenant mean to do away with the law or commandments. But I've said the opposite, if you've read my posts. Jesus, John, James, Peter, Paul et al understood and agreed with each other. But some have concluded that the commandments are no longer necessary to obey while historically the church has continuously maintained that they are. My contention is not that the commandments are done away with, but that it's now possible to fulfill them in a new way, by love, which is only possible by virtue of union with God which is the purpose of faith which is the realization of reconcilation with Him.

 

[Bro.T]

All right, for some reason you've got the idea that I think Paul and the new covenant mean to do away with the law or commandments. But I've said the opposite, if you've read my posts. Jesus, John, James, Peter, Paul et al understood and agreed with each other. But some have concluded that the commandments are no longer necessary to obey while historically the church has continuously maintained that they are. My contention is not that the commandments are done away with, but that it's now possible to fulfill them in a new way, by love, which is only possible by virtue of union with God which is the purpose of faith which is the realization of reconcilation with Him.

I understand what you saying, but when you relate love the Bible we can see and understand what Jesus was saying to the religious leaders, because they were constantly questioning Him and on this occasion a lawyer asked Jesus what is the great commandment? Jesus says in Matthew (22:35) Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, (36) Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus reply was the 1st great commandment was to love God and the 2nd was to love ones neighbor. These were given as a commandment for man to love.

Matthew (22:37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

(38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

One should note that by following the 1st and 2nd great commandment they will be adhering to the 10 commandments issued by Moses. If they love the Lord they won’t have any other Gods before him, or make any graven images or take his name in vain, they will remember his Sabbath and if they love their neighbor they will honor their Father and Mother and they won’t kill or commit adultery or steal or bear false witness nor will they covet. This is why Jesus goes on to state that on these two commandments hang the law and the prophets. Because by fulfilling these two commandments one fulfills the law.

(40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[fhansen]

I understand what you saying, but when you relate love the Bible we can see and understand what Jesus was saying to the religious leaders, because they were constantly questioning Him and on this occasion a lawyer asked Jesus what is the great commandment? Jesus says in Matthew (22:35) Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, (36) Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus reply was the 1st great commandment was to love God and the 2nd was to love ones neighbor. These were given as a commandment for man to love.

Matthew (22:37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

(38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

One should note that by following the 1st and 2nd great commandment they will be adhering to the 10 commandments issued by Moses. If they love the Lord they won’t have any other Gods before him, or make any graven images or take his name in vain, they will remember his Sabbath and if they love their neighbor they will honor their Father and Mother and they won’t kill or commit adultery or steal or bear false witness nor will they covet. This is why Jesus goes on to state that on these two commandments hang the law and the prophets. Because by fulfilling these two commandments one fulfills the law.

(40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Yes, this is it! But what I'm submitting is that obedience of the commandments does not necessarily imply that we're loving as we should, while loving as we should always means obedience of the commandments. And the doorway to this love is God as we enter fellowship with Him and the doorway to God is faith. And this is why the prophecy of Jer 31 stresses this intimate union as a primary aspect of the new covenant:

"I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord."

Knowledge of God is the basis of faith, hope, and love. The more we know Him the more we believe in, hope in, and love Him-it cannot be helped. And that God, the only One who can place His law in our minds and write it on our hearts, is the One Jesus reveals.

 

[Bro.T]

Yes, this is it! But what I'm submitting is that obedience of the commandments does not necessarily imply that we're loving as we should, while loving as we should always means obedience of the commandments. And the doorway to this love is God as we enter fellowship with Him and the doorway to God is faith. And this is why the prophecy of Jer 31 stresses this intimate union as a primary aspect of the new covenant:

"I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord."

Knowledge of God is the basis of faith, hope, and love. The more we know Him the more we believe in, hope in, and love Him-it cannot be helped. And that God, the only One who can place His law in our minds and write it on our hearts, is the One Jesus reveals.

I agree with the scriptures you post but loving God will always include the keeping of the commandments, like it's written in 1 John 5: 1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

I'm not sure what you mean when you use the word intimate, because we deal with a God that looks to us to be a doer of the word, which means hearing and then action. Let's go to James 1: 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 for he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed

 

[Bro.T]

All right, for some reason you've got the idea that I think Paul and the new covenant mean to do away with the law or commandments. But I've said the opposite, if you've read my posts. Jesus, John, James, Peter, Paul et al understood and agreed with each other. But some have concluded that the commandments are no longer necessary to obey while historically the church has continuously maintained that they are. My contention is not that the commandments are done away with, but that it's now possible to fulfill them in a new way, by love, which is only possible by virtue of union with God which is the purpose of faith which is the realization of reconcilation with Him.

Well that's good that you believe in keeping the Commandments, but understand that there is no knew way to love God. Jesus stated that these 2 commandments where the 2 great commandments however the following verses will show that these commandments were not new and that the Jews and Jesus was speaking to were aware of them. These were the same ones issued to Israel by Moses.

Deuteronomy (6:5) And thy shall love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus (19:18) Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Now that it has been established that man was commanded to love one needs to examine the scriptures to get an understanding of the love required in these great commandments.

In the following verses Moses is telling the Israelites that God chose them strictly out of His love for them. Deuteronomy (7:7) The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

(8) But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

(9) Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Note in verse (9) Moses states a condition that God requires in order for Him to keep covenant and have mercy. And that is an individual must love God and keep His commandments. The scriptures will show that there is only one way to love God and that is by keeping His commandments.

Note that Jesus states in the following verse that in order to love Him one has to keep His commandments.

John (14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jesus further defines the love He requires when He states in the following verse that those who have His commandments and keep them are those that love Him. One does not have to guess at Jesus definition of love He made it clear.

John (14:21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus also reinforced what was said in Deuteronomy verse (9) by adding that those that love Him will be loved by the Father. How does one love Jesus? by keeping His commandments and Moses said God will keep covenant and have mercy with those who keep His commandments. So therefore by following Jesus one shall receive love from Him as well as mercy from the Father.

 

[fhansen]

I agree with the scriptures you post but loving God will always include the keeping of the commandments, like it's written in 1 John 5: 1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

I'm not sure what you mean when you use the word intimate, because we deal with a God that looks to us to be a doer of the word, which means hearing and then action. Let's go to James 1: 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 for he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed

Intimate means not just paying Him lip-service, but Him becoming our God again as we humbly subjugate outselves to Him in faith. That's what it means to be "under grace" now. This is essentially the opposite of Adam's act of disobedience and of fallen man's attempts at obedience while "under the law".

Union with God is the point of our faith. It's our eternal destiny, our very purpose, which begins now. It's intrinsic to our justice or righteousness. It's the source of our ability to love as He does-and as He wants us to. While, yes, loving God-and neighbor- will always include keeping the commandments (that love means keeping the commandments and is the only way to authentically keep them), keeping the commandments can be done, with some success, apart from love.

 

[Bro.T]

Intimate means not just paying Him lip-service, but Him becoming our God again as we humbly subjugate outselves to Him in faith. That's what it means to be "under grace" now. This is essentially the opposite of Adam's act of disobedience and of fallen man's attempts at obedience while "under the law".

Union with God is the point of our faith. It's our eternal destiny, our very purpose, which begins now. It's intrinsic to our justice or righteousness. It's the source of our ability to love as He does-and as He wants us to. While, yes, loving God-and neighbor- will always include keeping the commandments (that love means keeping the commandments and is the only way to authentically keep them), keeping the commandments can be done, with some success, apart from love.

The love that God requires of man is one of will. And this love is a deliberate attitude whereas circumstances and changes in situations do not impact ones actions. Remember Jesus walked this earth as a man and as human nature He did not want to die but he was obedient to the will of God even until death. The following verses show that Jesus dying on the cross was God’s will.

Matthews (26:36) Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.

(37) And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.

(38) Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

(39) And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

God in His plan for the salvation of man had decided to offer Jesus as a sacrifice. Remember the love God requires is based on obedience not feeling or circumstances. Verse (39) lets you know that Jesus did not feel like or want to participate in the event which was to occur and that was His crucifixion. Now certainly if there were ever a situation or circumstance that could cause an individual to be disobedient it would be the facing of ones own death. But as stated earlier to love God means to be obedient regardless of ones feeling or circumstances. And Jesus demonstrated that love by being obedient to the will of the Father even tho it meant Him dying.