2 Witnesses question

[Timtofly]

Hi Ligurian,

OK, let`s look at the 3 woes from the last 3 trumpets sounding, heralding things to come.

`Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound.` (Rev. 8: 13)

1. The 5th angel sounded - demons came forth. (Rev. 9: 1 - 12) `One woe is past. Behold, still two more woes are coming after these things.` (also Rev. 12: 7 - 12 gives details of that war in the universal heavens.)

2. The 6th angel sounded - the great army crossing over the river Euphrates, heading to Armageddon and the great earthquake. (Rev. 9: 13 - 21, 11: 14 - the second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly)

3. The 7th angel sounded - the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of the Lord. (Rev. 11: 15) And this takes place when the Lord comes, straight after the great earthquake and Armageddon.

Marilyn.

The 3rd woe is if Satan gets 42 months. If Satan does not get 42 months the destruction of Revelation 17 and 18 as the end of this world's government, and Adam's flesh is completely destroyed is the third woe.

If Satan gets 42 months it ends at Armageddon.

 

[Douggg]

Hi Douggg,

Yes you have, sorry. Now do you see that you have 1,260 days to the end, no mention of 1,290 days, and then 1,335 days ending at the same time. Daniel says in ch. 12 -

`...time, times and half a time....1,260 days. (Power of holy people (Israel) shattered) (v. 7)
...A/D taken away, 1,290 days. (v. 11)
.....Blessed time, 1,335 days. (v. 12)

Clearly these times are all related.

Marilyn.

Marilyn, the times are all related, yes. But the 1290 days does not end at the same day as the 1335 days. The 1290 days ends 45 days before the 1335 days. Makes sense, right, 1290 is less than 1335 ?

day 1185 the AoD is setup to be worshipped....which the AoD is destroyed 1335 days later on the day Jesus returns, day 2520.

from day 1185, 1290 days to day 2475, the 6th seal events take place on day 2475, the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. The armies, after seeing the threat of Jesus in heaven, assemble for 45 days at Armageddon. On day 2520, the day Jesus returns, and Jesus destroys those armies.

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1335 days - day 1185 to day 2520 - the great tribulation (Matthew 24:21) - ends with Jesus coming in the clouds in power and great glory (Matthew 24:30b)


21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



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1290 days - day 1185 to day 2475 - the tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29) - ends with the Sign of the Son of man in heaven - Matthew 24:30a.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

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The great tribulation and the tribulation of those days is essentially the same thing.

But the great tribulation is 45 days longer and includes the 7th vial of the great hail and the global earthquake, and the pillaging of Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:2, as the armies take half of the city as hostage during the 45 days in getting ready to make war on Jesus.

 

[Douggg]

@Marilyn C

Marilyn, the 1290 days and 1335 days is not hard to grasp -

if you associate the 1335 days with Matthew 24:30b, the day Jesus returns.

And associate the 1290 days with Matthew 24:29-30a, the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

 

[Marilyn C]

Daniel 12:1-4 is future.

Daniel 12:7-14 goes back and starts in Daniel's time. 3500 years from Daniel will be the end. The first bad event after Daniel was Antiochus Epiphanies and that is the abomination of desolation talked about. We are now 2500 years from Daniel with 1000 more to go after the Second Coming.

Hi Tim,

If you look closely you will see that the vision of the man holding his hand to heaven, is the same vision John had in Rev. 10. Good to compare the two.

Marilyn.

 

[Douggg]

.

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes, that is why Daniel 9:27 is not the 70th week. It is a week of days and the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, per Revelation 10:7.

The 70th week is the Revelation of Jesus Christ and His earthly ministry. 3.5 years in the first century. With an ever shortening 3.5 years right around the corner.

Hi Tim,

The time from the first part of the 70th week reveals that it is a week, (unit of 7) of years - seven weeks of years is 49 years & then 62 x 7 = 434. Together they are 483 which leaves 7 years to make 490. (70 x 7).

Using God`s measurements of 360 days, (moon cycles) then that takes us right up to when the Lord came into Jerusalem on the donkey as prophesied by Zech. 9: 9.

Marilyn.

 

[Douggg]

The 3rd woe is if Satan gets 42 months. If Satan does not get 42 months the destruction of Revelation 17 and 18 as the end of this world's government, and Adam's flesh is completely destroyed is the third woe.

Tim, there is no "ifs" involved. Satan will be cast down to earth from the second heaven and will have a time/times/half time left.

There is no "if Satan does not get 42 months". Satan will be cast down to earth from the second heaven and will have a time/times/haft time left.

Satan being cast down to earth from the second heaven is the third woe - yes.

 

[Marilyn C]

@Marilyn C

Marilyn, the 1290 days and 1335 days is not hard to grasp -

if you associate the 1335 days with Matthew 24:30b, the day Jesus returns.

And associate the 1290 days with Matthew 24:29-30a, the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

Hi Douggg,

I see it is straight forward.

.........A/D...........(1,260 days A/C)..................Jesus.
.........A/D...........(1,260 days A/C)..................Jesus....(30 days) .....X
cleansing Sanctuary.
.........A/D...........(1, 260 days A/C).................Jesus....(30 days).......X...30....X..15....X

The final 30 + 15 takes us to the festival of National Deliverance which is celebrated every year in Jerusalem on the 15th of Adar, (their last month).

Marilyn.

 

[Douggg]

Hi Douggg,

I see it is straight forward.

.........A/D...........(1,260 days A/C)..................Jesus.
.........A/D...........(1,260 days A/C)..................Jesus....(30 days) .....X
cleansing Sanctuary.
.........A/D...........(1, 260 days A/C).................Jesus....(30 days).......X...30....X..15....X

The final 30 + 15 takes us to the festival of National Deliverance which is celebrated every year in Jerusalem on the 15th of Adar, (their last month).

Marilyn.

What in your post is the A/D? I know you mean Abomination of Desolation, but what is the Abomination of Desolation specifically ?

What is the Transgression of Desolation ?

 

[Douggg]

........A/D...........(1,260 days A/C)..................Jesus.
.........A/D...........(1,260 days A/C)..................Jesus....(30 days) .....X
cleansing Sanctuary.
.........A/D...........(1, 260 days A/C).................Jesus....(30 days).......X...30....X..15....X

Marilyn, the way you presented your view is kinda unclear to me.

I think this is what you meant ?

.......Aod.....(1,260 days A/C).......Jesus's return


(the 1290 days)
.......Aod.....(1,260 days A/C).......Jesus's return....then 30 days to cleanse the Sanctuary

1260+30 = 1290

(the 1335 days)
......Aod......(1,260 days A/C).......Jesus's return....then 30 days to cleanse the Sanctuary.... then another 45 days to the Jewish festival of National Deliverance.

1260+30+45 = 1335

 

[keras]

The final 30 + 15 takes us to the festival of National Deliverance which is celebrated every year in Jerusalem on the 15th of Adar,

Thanks, that is logical and sensible.
Then the 1335 days since the AoD, 75 since the Return, is the Festival of Hanukkah; which will be the rededication of the Temple.

What is error is to think the extra 30 an 75 days are before the 1260 days. Even worse error, is to squish in the 2300 evenings and mornings into the end times. They are history.

 

[Timtofly]

Hi Tim,

The time from the first part of the 70th week reveals that it is a week, (unit of 7) of years - seven weeks of years is 49 years & then 62 x 7 = 434. Together they are 483 which leaves 7 years to make 490. (70 x 7).

Using God`s measurements of 360 days, (moon cycles) then that takes us right up to when the Lord came into Jerusalem on the donkey as prophesied by Zech. 9: 9.

Marilyn.

Ezra 1 is when the decree was given.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, there is no "ifs" involved. Satan will be cast down to earth from the second heaven and will have a time/times/half time left.

There is no "if Satan does not get 42 months". Satan will be cast down to earth from the second heaven and will have a time/times/haft time left.

Satan being cast down to earth from the second heaven is the third woe - yes.

You may accept that Satan needs this time.

The point is not about what Satan needs. The point is on the Confirmation of the Atonement Covenant. Daniel saw the week split. It has not happened yet. The way the church is going, it will happen. If the church repented like Nineveh did, and God changed the course of Nineveh being destroyed, then God does not have to give Satan 42 months. Was Jonah telling them a lie, when he claimed God would destroy them in 40 days? That was the prophecy. Did it happen in 40 days? God can still heal the nations, if the church repented. There is a slim chance, the church could change the narrative of the outcome. Unless the church has just given up and resigned to letting it happen. Someone in Nineveh did not just sit back and let God destroy their city. They did something about it. Sounds like they had more faith than can be found in today's church. Has any one even hinted that God could bring about revival? I am not saying they have faith God can if He only would. I am saying they have to repent themselves in sackcloth and ashes. That is unheard of in today's hustle and bustle world.

 

[Ligurian]

Hi Ligurian,

I did refer to Rev.12: 12 concerning the demons from hell coming to the earth. (Rev. 9: 1 - 12 & 12: 12 the details) Notice that the `woe` mentioned in Rev. 12: 12 does NOT have `this is the first woe (or whatever) and still two or.. more woes to come.

Each trumpet 5,6 7 that I mentioned had the phrase - this is the ....woe and still ...more to come.

regards, Marilyn.

If you look at the word translated as woe from the three in Revelation 8:13, the third woe is the devil coming down to Earth... does the angel have to say something like, and this is the third woe, for you to believe that it is? I used to think a lot of things and type them out into the internet... and then apologize for saying them. But there are worse things than just typing wrong things, so I'm trying to help you to get out of the trap you are in. If you don't want me to help you because you don't think you need any help, I'm sad for you.

 

[TedT]

The two witnesses will be waring with the beast from day 1185 (AoD setup day) to day 1260 when he finally overcomes them and kills them. The two witnesses waring with the beast during that timeframe is to provide cover as the Jews are fleeing.

They war with plagues and drought etc. How is Satan answering?? More plagues, more drought? Hardly, he will present as the saviour of the world against these lunatic Christians, full of safety, hope and vaccines etc...

Hmmmmmm??

 

[Ligurian]

The 1260 year prophecy (Revelation 13:5, Revelation 12:6) took place between 538 AD and 1798 AD, the dark ages. Notice that in verse three (above), we see that the two witnesses are clothed in sackcloth (darkness). The Bible was kept out of the hands of the people and it had to be translated in secret and smuggled to distribute it. There was Christian persecution and millions were killed.

Sackcloth is for mourning, not darkness.

In verse 4 we see two olive trees and two candlesticks.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
​

Olive trees provide oil (Holy Spirit) for lamps/candlesticks (the word of God, light). We see this in Zechariah 4:1-10 also.

Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.​

Given the symbolic language, the two witnesses are the Old and New Testaments—the word of God.

The olive trees aren't the same as the two candlesticks. In context, they're probably two of the seven Spirits of God. And if this is true, it means the other churches are Spirit-less and/or gone when the two witnesses begin to prophesy. Revelation gives it's own interpretation, with the candlesticks as the churches of Revelation. I would have thought that maybe the olive trees were possibly angels if I hadn't known from the first chapter that the stars are angels... which means perhaps that the stars which fall from Heaven in Revelation are the fallen angels along with the devil.

In verse 5 we see that there are consequences to hurting the witnesses.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
​

Fire represents the Holy Spirit, but also the wrath of God and the lake of fire (Deuteronomy 9:3, Revelation 20:14-15).

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
​

Symbolic language. Shut heaven, means being cut off from God. Rain being another symbol for the Holy Spirit, but can also mean actual drought (or drought of the Holy Spirit).

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.​

Peter tr.by Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Shut the Heavens so it doesn't rain... this is literally 3 1/2 years without rain... the same thing Elijah did in the time of Jezebel. Is this the whole world? It seems to be, since the whole world throws a party to celebrate the death of the witnesses.

Satan waging war against God and His word, which happened in a big way during the French Revolution. The French Revolution having started at the end of the prophesied 1260 years.

Revelation 11:8-10 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
​

Spiritual Sodom and Gomorrah (symbolic). The absence of God. During the French Revolution, God's word was burned in the streets.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.​

The 3 1/2 days (prophetic years) appear to be the years before the end of the dark ages (1793-1797) and events surrounding the French Revolution, which took place in 1798. In the same year, the deadly wound spoken of in Revelation 13:3 would take place when the Pope Pius VI was taken prisoner by French general Berthier (and would later die). The end to the dark ages and Christian persecution.

God's word, however, came back from persecution stronger than ever and went to the world.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.​

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Symbolizing everything never works. Neither does ripping things out of context in order to make what they mean into something else.

The great city is Jerusalem that kills the prophets. Apparently they offer the sanctuary of Egypt, and have the sins of Sodom. Interesting, given the witnesses. Will there be a showdown between Jezebel and Elijah again? Is this when the whole world falls under the spell of Jezebel who then becomes Babylon when she's cast onto a bed of harlotry? Is this the fall of Babylon, that she was the crowning city but becomes a cage for vultures? Babylon is fallen, is fallen... twice? First, from her position of even being able to be an adulteress in the eyes of God; second, to become a cage for vultures?

Thank you for making me do the research, but now it's your turn. Try dropping the symbolization of things that make common sense, for starters.

 

[Douggg]

You may accept that Satan needs this time.

The point is not about what Satan needs. The point is on the Confirmation of the Atonement Covenant. Daniel saw the week split. It has not happened yet. The way the church is going, it will happen. If the church repented like Nineveh did, and God changed the course of Nineveh being destroyed, then God does not have to give Satan 42 months. Was Jonah telling them a lie, when he claimed God would destroy them in 40 days? That was the prophecy. Did it happen in 40 days? God can still heal the nations, if the church repented. There is a slim chance, the church could change the narrative of the outcome. Unless the church has just given up and resigned to letting it happen. Someone in Nineveh did not just sit back and let God destroy their city. They did something about it. Sounds like they had more faith than can be found in today's church. Has any one even hinted that God could bring about revival? I am not saying they have faith God can if He only would. I am saying they have to repent themselves in sackcloth and ashes. That is unheard of in today's hustle and bustle world.

The purpose of the church is not to keep Satan from being destroyed. Just the opposite, the purpose of the church is to destroy the works of the devil.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Matthew 24 is not in chronological order. Revelation is in chronological order.

Oh, really? So, you think this:

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

already happened before this?

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

[Douggg]

Thanks, that is logical and sensible.
Then the 1335 days since the AoD, 75 since the Return, is the Festival of Hanukkah; which will be the rededication of the Temple.

What is error is to think the extra 30 an 75 days are before the 1260 days. Even worse error, is to squish in the 2300 evenings and mornings into the end times. They are history.

For example...

Hanukkah 2021 - begins November 28 at sunset, ends December 6 at nightfall. Rededication of the temple rabbinic holiday.

Purim 2021 - begins February 25 at sunset, ends February 26 at nightfall.
National deliverance from the plot to destroy the Jewish people - rabbinic holiday

These are not God ordained feast days, established by God.

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How are you guys working Hanukkah and Purim to be the 1290 days and 1335 days ? What year are you getting the proper spacing of 45 days between Hanukkah and Purim ?

What day in your view of the 2520 day 7 years is the AoD setup to be worshiped ?

 

[Marilyn C]

What in your post is the A/D? I know you mean Abomination of Desolation, but what is the Abomination of Desolation specifically ?

What is the Transgression of Desolation ?

Hi Douggg,

Thank you for asking me to clarify. Now I believe from God`s word that the A/D, is the image that the false prophet had made. It was an image of the A/C and it was made to be able to speak and cause those not worshiping the image to be killed. (Rev. 13: 14 & 15)

(Abomination of desolation - in Matt. 24: 15 & Dan. 11: 31 & 12: 11).

Something like this -

regards, Marilyn.